Anyway….

We’ve got planning permission for a single storey extension close to the boundary to our semi detached neighbours.

Currently a 3mx3m conservatory sits on the site with a similar structure next door.

Both these were put up within permitted development and with each others agreement and no party wall notice was served by either of us as we didn’t no such a thing exisited.

The neighbours knew of our plans and did not object to planning permission.

As our current plans were drawn up by an architects practice (do things by the book) we served a Part Wall notice as we’ll be excavating within 3 metres of the boundary and it states “I intend to build within 3 meters of your building and to a lower level than the bottom of your foundations” and “We do not propose to underpin or otherwise strengthen in order to safeguard the foundations of your property.”, standard wording by all accounts.

Well talk about them getting twitchy, you’d think I was building a tunnel under the house.

Aside from involving a Party Wall Surveyor with there well known fees, is there another way to provide reassurances that my 600mm deep foundation won’t cause their house to fall down??

you could dig a trial hole and get a structural engineer to inspect both sets of foundations, as well as comment on the proposed extension.

I would would always recommend using a Party Wall surveyor to draw up a proper agreement, otherwise you would be in breach of the Party Wall Act and the neighbour could force you to stop work.

Edit: Has you neighbour disputed the works via the Party Wall Notice?

No, they are not disputing it and are happy for the work to take place, they simply want written reassurance as to there being no structural risk to them prior to signing.

I found much nicer wording online which says “The proposed works do / do not involve special foundations”- this would have probably done away with there nerves- I feel like kicking the architect in the nuts.

The first time I heard of a party wall agreement was last Friday, 5 months after we told the neighbours we were going to build- if we’d known we could have discussed this ages ago and not as we were instructing builders.

Well talk about them getting twitchy, you’d think I was building a tunnel under the house.

I don’t blame them getting twitchy, I would, specially if no proper survey of their property has been conducted.

To be honest your architect should have written a letter to your neighbour explaining the whole thing. We certainly do.

To be honest, the best way they can have piece of mind is to raise a dispute. What will happen then is a Party Wall Surveyor, paid for by you, will be instructed to undertake a survey of the neighbour’s property and put in place guidelines that the builder must follow in order to protect their foundations.

Ernie; we live in a semi detatched property with foundations at the same level as the neighbours, 3 years ago they built a conservatory with foundations to the depth of current building regs without a party wall agreement and there were no subsequent structural issues.

Our new foundations will run along the lines of our existing conservatory, simply extending them a metre further from the property and will be to current building regs, basically the depth of those they dug without a party wall agreement.

I respect they are within their rights but as they saw no risk digging their own I’m slight agast that suddenly ours pose a risk.

I would be twitchy with wording like that!

Yes. You need to acertain the depth of their footing by digging a trial hole. They may also have drawings showing the arrangement if the works were that recent. I’m unsure of the position of your extension relative to the boundary but any foundary design needs to take account of any existing neighbouring footings.

Is there a Structural Enginner on the project?

As far as I was aware if you are not in dispute then you do not need to employ partywall surveyors.

You’re building only 3 metres away from their house, there is always risk of damage, not just from digging but from plant, lorries, scaffolding, etc. If their house hasn’t been surveyed and cracks appear on their paving slabs or the back door starts getting jammed, whatever, how are they going to prove that it was your building work which caused it ? You might be confident that your building work won’t cause any sort of damage at all to their property, but I’m not surprised if they don’t share the same level of confidence as you.

As far as I was aware if you are not in dispute then you do not need to employ partywall surveyors.

You don’t.

The original wording mentioned is fairly standard, but we would always send an accompanying letter explaining the proposals in softer, more straightforward language. I have even phoned the neighbour myself on occasions to discuss the proposals with them to avoid them getting “twitchy”.

One thing you could say to them is that you could get the builder to hand dig the foundation trench that is nearest to their foundations. They will need to know this when pricing for the work though.

Mikey, is there any defence in the fact they failed to serve a party wall notice on us for the conservatory thus offering us none of the assurances they now ask of us or do I just have to suck that one up?

The wording could have been alot ‘softer’ but what’s done is done.

Could the structural engineer who did the internal beam calcs provide them with adequate reassurances and what would these be?

To your first point: No, not really. I wouldn’t take it down that route as it will only end up in an argument.

It sounds like you have done everything by the book so you hold the moral high-ground.

the structural engineer could effectively do the same thing as the Party Wall surveyor and comment on the existing state of the foundations and make recommendtions as to what the builder can do to avoid damaging the neighbour’s property. However, as this will not be part of the Party Wall award, I’m not sure where your neighbour would stand legally if any problems were encountered.

A Party Wall award is a legal document that must be abided by, whereas the structural engineer could just make recommendations.

Could the structural engineer who did the internal beam calcs provide them with adequate reassurances and what would these be?

Yes but the design needs to be dependent on what the existing foundations are.

Even if you resolve the issue and reassure the neighbours without party wall surveyors don’t forgot doing, prior to the works starting, a photogrpahic record of conditions of the neighbour’s property for both theirs and your protection.

Any self respecting builder would also do this for his protection but probably wouldn’t issue it to you!

we are going to start a house extension soon in a semi detached house .

I am asking the neighbour to sign a party wall agreement saying they are happy for us to start work . if they refuse we will enter a dispute and I ll have to pay for a surveyor to inspect both houses prior to the work .

no footings involved .

I always try and hand deliver party wall notices to allow me to talk through the procedures and the building owners intentions, as in it’s raw form, the standard wording of a party wall notice does tend to make people unnecessarily suspicious, even when accompanied by an explanatory letter.

Google Pyramus and Thisbee club to find out some of the peculiarities of the Act, but also a useful laymans guide.

Entering into a dispute isn’t as bad as it sounds (apart from for your bank balance) as the act serves to protect both parties, with the surveyor(s) representing the Act itself, rather than the people who appointed them.

Last question for the night then, if they agree to a surveyor how much should I expect to pay all in?

I agree, the standard forms are, like most legal documents, written in rather stark, almost alarming, language.

I sometimes think that entering into dispute is really no bad thing, because at least everyone has piece of mind that way, and can avoid potentially expensive disputes further on the line.

I agree with the above suggestion to take photos before the work is started and at every stage of the works.

I can’t remember the exact fees off the top of my head, but i think they were in the region of £800-1000 for the PW Surveyor to do his inspection and draw up the agreement.

I you want to give me your e-mail address, I could have a look tomorrow and let you know.

Cheers Mikey, ben_houldsworth at yahoo dot co dot uk

My neighbours hit me with “we want a party wall agreement” the week before work was due to commence, having know about it for months before. I showed them the plans before they were put into the council….

I just used a “normal” surveyor who draw up a report of next door’s building/stucture… He took pics of existing crack etc and the neighbours signed the report and were happy… all done for about £350 iirc

I haven’t spoken to the neighbours today be we have proposed we change the wording of the document to the following

“we do not intend to build lower than the bottom of your foundations, but in the unlikely event that we have to then we would underpin in order to safeguard your foundations”.

Speaking to builders and the structural engineer they all think such a change in wording would be the likely outcome of a Party Wall surveyor so may as well save the money and see if it works.

Ernie, as a litmus test would this ease your mind?

Arses!!

Bit the bullet and paid for an hour with a Party Wall surveyor who told me unless we definitively know, which we don’t and given we live in a semi is unlikely, that we will dig below the depth of their foundations that we didn’t need to issue a Party Wall Notice in the first place.

In the meantime despite offering to change the wording to offer assurances of underpinning should it be necessary, my neighbour, having been copied in to 3 emails from a structural engineer, the architect and my builder supporting this plus being asked for copies of the plans for his conservatory to confirm his foundation depths (which he failed to get planning permission for) has accused me of bullying him and shut the door in my face.

FFS

Angle of repose?

pjm, I’m not an engineer so I couldn’t tell you the angle of repose though I appeciate it varies in different soils.

At present, we both have consvervatories within 1 m of the each other, his 300mm from the boundary and ours 700mm.

We propose using the existing line of our foundations and have offered to underpin if necessary.

He by his own admission he has not consulted any professionals prior to throwing his toys from the pram.

What more assurance can I give than a legal document and the written opinions of three professionals?

Well, you could always inform the local authority about his illegal extension.
Just carry on as normal as though its a Party Wall situation, you’ve served, are obviously now in dispute so deal with it that way.

aP, that is best served cold.

The only saving grace is I failed to sign and date the Notice that I handed them to in theory it’s null and void.

We’ve got on with these guys for 7 years, not a single issue, so it’s all a bit unfathomable at the moment.

You get the vibe that they’re just being obstructive.

You need to determine the location / depth of their foundations. Have you asked if this can be arranged? Also try speaking to the BCO. There may be an application, may being slim, for the conservatory. Worth a call.

Does their conservatory go all the way to the ground or is there a low brickwork wall. General the latter so probably a simple strip / trench footing.

Once you have this information try and have the foundations designed so that the excavation does not not go lower so that you don’t need a party wall award / agreement. It may however not be possible.

This should have been considered at the design stage

I’ve requested copies of their conservatory designs and foundation details, no response…offered to dig a trial hole, no response….

Their conservatory sits on an approx 500mm double wall.

Our Building regs notes (submitted to the building inspector), of which they have a copy state “Foundations to be similar size as existing house footings and taken to a similar depth as existing”.

I appreciate going we may have to go lower than their foundations hence the offer of underpinning

Whats the retaining structure on the fence line? How does the floor levels / ground levels relate, building heights relate?

Rear elevation?

It wouldn’t neccessary require underpining but may need works in place to ensure that their building is not undermined.

The retaining structure is an existing retaining wall, built by the previous owners.

Floor/ground levels will be as per exisitng conservatory on our property.

We are quite literally, in terms of floor plan taking a 3×3 structure and increasing it to 4×4, all increases in dimensions will away from the neighbours property and not towards it.

Sounds extremely tedious, however you might want to remove that image file.
I’m just amazed how little information people get away with for Bldg Regs submissions. We don’t.

Best sorted with a quick chat with the neighbour over a coffee. No need for anyone to get anxious, this is standard stuff.

Do you even know the depth of foundation for the existing property? A quick test pit on your side might be a good idea. Can’t see why you’d need to go down further for a single-storey extension, unless the existing foundations are very shallow for a two-storey house.

If someone was talking about going down lower than my foundations within 3m, I’d be feeling a tad twitchy too.