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Any lift engineers among ye?

36 posts & 12 voices | Started 1 year ago by MikeT-23 | Latest reply from james319

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MikeT-23 - Member

If so, tell me about auto-diallers.
What is their life-expectancy? Do they have a specific time when they are likely to go wrong, or pack in? Is there a proprietary 'sensitivity' to this component?

Context: two year-old lift in brand new building copes fine with auto calls to monitoring station (we have the BT bills to prove it), then tenants finally move in, get a rival company's engineer in to make sure everything is fine, tenant establishes new phone line (after I'd arranged an line ownership swap through BT), and then all of a sudden it doesnae work any more and there's talk of the landlord having to replace at circa £1300.

Maybe I'm just bitter and suspicious; maybe I need a shag and a life; but maybe...just maybe....I'm just interested to learn a bit more. Hoping you might help*.

Thank you

*(with the learning bit, as opposed to the shag/life bit)

Posted 1 year ago #
Dobbo - Member

Probably dialled in and changed the settings in the lift PLC, the modem will probably have a PIN on it though.

What's the new line for?

Posted 1 year ago #
Liftman - Member

If the lift is Otis, Schindler, Kone then they are proprierty other lift companies can't alter them.

Posted 1 year ago #
Dobbo - Member

The forums got a Liftman, what are the chances of that.

Posted 1 year ago #
BigJohn - Member

I always wanted to phone the Reading branch of Otis to see how they answered.

Sitting on the dock of the bay, etc.

Posted 1 year ago #
Liftman - Member

MikeT-23, What make is the lift and who is the rival lift company, I may be able to point you in the right direction.

Posted 1 year ago #
Flaperon - Member

Stupid suggestion, but is it possible that in connecting it to a new phone line they've run it through some sort of PABX? Can cause weird, unexplained, and funky problems with auto-dialers.

It would actually be a really thick thing to do, but worth asking.

Posted 1 year ago #
don simon - Member

I always wanted to phone the Reading branch of Otis to see how they answered.

Sitting on the dock of the bay, etc.

Schindler's lifts, always makes me smile.

Posted 1 year ago #
BigJohn - Member

And next time you're near the Nissan plant, in Washington, near Sunderland, ring for a Gino's pizza.

Baby come back, etc.

Posted 1 year ago #
MikeT-23 - Member

Amazing!

This forum never fails to surprise me in one way or another.

Liftman, you have hit new heights of popularity and elevated my mood beyond my expectations
[yes, old ones are best, but I thought they should be got out of the way first. Thanking you for your patience]

The lift is indeed a Schindler model, either a 3100 a 3300 or a 5300 according to the front of the manual.
The tenant in the building concerned has brought in Thyssen Krupp to sort out an 'issue' not clearly described beyond the phone line being down.
We had maintained the BT line while the building lay unoccupied, and have the bills to show we paid for automated test calls, but new tenant claims phone had been disconnected (I had arranged for a line ownership transfer) and had to connect a new one via BT. They've also been charged around £1300 for a new autodialler supplied by TK.

Dobbo - the new line is standard safety/comms line that, I understand, most (or all) personnel lifts require to have by law in case of emergencies. (?)

Flaperon - I'm not sure, but will mention it.

I really just want to know if it could be a genuine breakdown, or if there could be some jiggery going on - the timing's too coincidental, and their surveyor is suggesting we retro-pin it to a snagging list, thereby passing the buck to us.
If it is a known issue in lift circles that you don't mess with another man's auto-dialler, then I am clearer as how to respond. Will keep powder dry until you respond gents. Thank you all.

BTW, the lift is in Westhill, Aberdeen. I'm in Glasgow - not a convenient 'pop out to check it' distance.

Posted 1 year ago #
montylikesbeer - Member

mail me and I can give you specific equipment information, I own an independent lift installation and maintenance company by the way.

There is a pan European standard for communications (EN81/28)systems also, again I can advise.

It sounds like you have an already installed OEM autodial unit, which if by schindler (yes there is a joke there), OTIS, Kone or Thyssen cannot be re programmed to an alternative number.

We fit after market generic autodial units all the time (Memcom is our preferred kit), this and similar systems can be re programmed to any of three numbers time after time.

£1,300.00 is strong, I charge £950.00 + VAT for a Memcom unit

Posted 1 year ago #
MikeT-23 - Member

Monty

more info is always good.
TBH all I've told here is all I've been given via email from the tenant or their surveyor, except for the fact that the lift was installed new during construction and has been used like one would expect in a vacant building (i.e. not at all).
The tenant now has operatives in, including a disabled employee on the upper floor, so whatever has had to be done to get it working has obviously been done.
There is no reverting to the original status now.

I just want to be aware if tenant's KT engineer might've be 'obliged' to advise as they did, and push their own proprietary equipment. I can't imagine they'd be as ignorant to the workings as I am (wet-behind-the-ears trainee in nothing-in-particular, with no relevant qualifications but learning-on-the-job!)

Strange thing is, though, the same tenant took the building next door (1 year older, but same size/layout/design and same lift equipment (Schindler) as soon as it was finished), and this issue didn't occur then. As they have other properties in the Aberdeen area (and being in the oil industry, other properties around the globe), my presumption is that they would, more than likely, use thyssen krupp to attend to all their lift equipment on some larger maintenance contract.
Is it possible that the auto-dialler's number was up, so to speak?

Posted 1 year ago #
montylikesbeer - Member

OK, ill give you the 30 cent tour.

It is a requirement for all passenger lifts to have two way communication to a manned station.

For practical purposes this usualy means an autodial unit connected to a BT line.

The line is provided by the tenant /client.

The OEM lift companies (OTIS, schindler and TK) develp their own in house control systems and because of the requirements of EN81-28 at the same time "bolt on" at their factories on the continent their own propriety autodial units.

Because in the main on the continent companies in the main stick to their own kit.

In the UK the market is more flexible and people like me who own independant lift companies "mix it up a bit"

OK so far, if the lift is under maintenance at this time with the OEM, schindler in this case then there is no problem.

However if you have changed service providers (even to people like me)then the autodial unit if it is an in house OEM unit cannot be re programmed to anyone other than them.

So TK by highlighting the issue are doing you a favour.

Imagine anyone being in the lift and it has no means to folk to summon assistance!

Also the fact the lift is not being used often is no excuse as the safety systems, including maintenance and communication systems must always be in place as should you bi annual LOLER or competant persons inspection by an authorised body other than your maintenance company.

If these systems are not in place and an incident occurs then the directors of the management company will be liable for investigation and possible prosecution by HSE.

So if you have swapped providers then you have no option than to fit a new autodial unit.

However you need to ensure for your sake and future re programming if your provider of lift services changes in the future that the system fitted is generic, ie: a Memco or Windcrest type system.

Does this help

Posted 1 year ago #
MikeT-23 - Member

That helps a great deal, Monty, yes.
Thank you.

We were not consulted re. the tenant's choice of lift maintenance company/engineer and their subsequent choice of replacement autodialler. I can only hope that they went with a Memco or Windcrest system, but have a feeling that they might have chosen one of their own. Wouldn't that be encouraged by the company?

As for the constancy of the safety line - we maintained it throughout the building's unoccupied phase, as we knew we were obliged to do.
The LOLER situation, OTOH, I was not aware of.

The tenant's lease terms require that they look after the upkeep of ALL mechanical equipment during their tenure, so the LOLER issue is theirs now, but I shall remember that for future times (there are four buildings in the development, so the chances are it will become a concern in the next handful of years).

Thanks again, Monty - et al.

best regards

Mike

Posted 1 year ago #
liftadviceservice - Member

If you have a Schindler lift with their own auto dialler system, then it should still work but will only call Schindler. Whatever the problem the best solution was to fit a Memco or Windcrest system which can be re-programmed at any time in the future. It is always best to have a dedicated tel line as going through an exchange system can cause problems and it cannot be programmed remotely.
If strange problems occurs like regulary calling out sometimes at same time of day, then the back up battery may need changing, some lift companies may try to sell you a new unit whereas it just needs a new battery. To fit a new unit from scratch should not cost more than £1000 although £1300 seems a going rate, some try to charge this amount just to replace a unit which should be considerably less as it is more or less a straight swop.
Should anyone need any kind of lift advice on any type of lift/stair lift then try http://www.liftadviceservice.co.uk

Posted 6 months ago #
james319 - Member

Am I reading this correctly ? Does all this mean that we will have to pay a new lift maintenance company around £1300 for each lift to fit different autodiallers to each lift. That works out at a total cost of £14500. Can we still use the lifts if we refuse to have new ones fitted and who will the HSE prosecute if we don't?
I live in a housing complex with 15 Kone lifts at Glasgow Harbour and have just been informed that we are soon to be changing to Apollo Lifts for a one year maintenance contract because they are cheaper than Kone. Any chance our factor Hacking&Paterson might pay for these things to be fitted? Can anyone please clarify in plain English where we stand on this.

Posted 1 month ago #
montylikesbeer - Member

Just seen this post resurrected.

The autodial units for OTIS , Kone and the rest of the large OEM's are designed to stop you from straying away as it were from then.

The £1,300 per lift I quoted was on the outside, an independent lift company might charge you just under a grand.

Once you have a generic system fitted they can be re programmed remotly to dial any of three numbers.

By the way apollo lifts were bought by Schindler a few months ago !

In terms of the law as building operators (the residents management company that is) you have a duty of care to ensure that entrapped paersons can communicate with someone to be released.

If you don't have such a system, intercom to a concierge or an autodial unit to a lift company then you would be exposed.

Also when the competent person (insurance inspector)carries out the bi anual lift inspection they will pick it up as well and advise you to reinstate a communication system.

My advise is to have them replaced and bit the bullet.

Why not go to tender form the works,there are loads of lift companies in Glasgow such as Lift mantenance Limited, Clyde valley Lifts as well as the major companies who would all give a price.

I bet through a tender you would get the price down to £850.00

The hardware costs £350.00 from memco and labour per unit would be about 6 hours to fit.

I quote these works almost every day.

Posted 1 month ago #
james319 - Member

Thanks for that Monty.

Apologies. I've just realised the total cost would be £19,500 and not £14500 as I stated.I have lived here for six years and the lifts have never given us any bother at all.I can't get my head round why all this money has to be spent on lifts that are working fine.

Posted 1 month ago #
Liftman - Member

Apollo = start using the stairs

Posted 1 month ago #
montylikesbeer - Member

It would be a right pickle if you did not and there was an issue in the future.

I have negotiated contracts after an OEM and built in the cost of replacing the autodial units over the contract period (3 years or so)

Best advise is bite the bullet honestly

Posted 1 month ago #
james319 - Member

Thanks again. Do you think £850 would include everything like we have just now with Kone (ie we don't pay for parts or labour and breakdowns etc I think they call it a Platinum type contract)

Posted 1 month ago #
montylikesbeer - Member

The auto dial units would be around £850 if you went to tender.

In terms of the whole service level agreement (maintenance visits as well as call response attendances), a 5 year fully comprehensive or platinum contract in this very tight market place probably could be had for less than a grand per lift per year.

It depends though on the number of stops, about a grand per lift would include up to eight stops I guess, over that that would be deemed high rise and require more work (more entrances you see) so the cost would increase.

The OEM's in a non tender situation (such as OTIS, Kone, Thyssen et al) would try charge you £2.5 K upwards per lift per year.

Always go to tender for these types of contracts, but be clear what you want and need down to the detail.

I'd be happy to suggest a typical contract to allow you to go to tender (email in profile)

Posted 1 month ago #
james319 - Member

We have 4 lifts@18 floors high/2 lifts@9 floors high/1 lifts@8 floors high/2 lifts@7 floors high/3 lifts@6 floors high and three lifts @4 floors high. address is j-lx@hotmail.co.uk Many thanks

Posted 1 month ago #
montylikesbeer - Member

ygm

Posted 1 month ago #
Liftman - Member

You have a property factor, you don't need to worry about things like autodiallers, that is what you are paying the factor for.

Posted 1 month ago #
montylikesbeer - Member

they are only a property management company, all costs are paid for by residents, i am guessing james is a director of the residents limited company.

Posted 1 month ago #
Liftman - Member

James appears to be a resident whom has just joined the forum to resurrect this thread.

H&P are choosing the lift contractor not the resident, you can tout away for the business till your hearts content

Posted 1 month ago #
elevatorworld - Member

Hate to burst your bubble James but you are really heading for a big fall and I really think autodiallers are the least of your worries.
Few things in life are equal and lift companies are no different.
You get what you pay for in the end. However well meaning the others may be the suggestion that you go to the likes of Lift Maintenance and Clyde Valley Lifts etc to look after your lifts is quite frankly laughable. Kone bought out Lift Maintenance for one thing and the other lot like many others just buy in cheap crap from europe and flog it at a huge mark up to daft folk. How Apollo expect to handle your equipment is a mystery to me and if they **** up big time you could be looking at tens of thousands to put right. In the meantime I would think about joining a gym if I were you.

Posted 1 month ago #
montylikesbeer - Member

Some strong views on here today.

I have worked in the independent end of the industry, however trained by OTIS when it was a good company.

In my view a good local independent company can provide better levels than the OEM.

My blood boils when I see the OEM's like Kone and Schindler and the likes of Arona designing software to restrict who can maintain their kit.

We all know the Kone "so many trips then locks the lift down scam", that's why most independent companies have the software to unlock it.

My offer of advise was just that, not an attempt to put an old mate in the frame for a bit of work.

Short of setting off to the stairs, perhaps some good honest advise about a pragmatic but clear tender process may get a lower price (for sure) and probably if the terms were written by the client on their contract and not the lift companies then some measure of control.

But perhaps I am just an old cynic in thinking that it you have a lift then stairs are a poor option.

Posted 1 month ago #
Liftman - Member

Elevatorworld, just joining a forum to spout yer rubbish, jog on fella

Posted 1 month ago #
elevatorworld - Member

Monty's had too much beer today. "Orona" Monty "Orona"
When Otis were a good company? I can't think that far back.

Posted 1 month ago #
elevatorworld - Member

Liftman (Expert on everything by the looks of things)
I searched some lift parts and this came up, unlike yourself I don't spend my life in chatrooms (not that I give a **** what you do)
I prefer to talk to real people myself

Posted 1 month ago #
Liftman - Member

Bye then Elevatorworld, thanks for coming

Posted 1 month ago #
maccruiskeen - Member

Three spambots having a fight. About lifts.

Oh my days!

Posted 1 month ago #
dr_adams - Member

there has to be a good pun in here somewhere?

Posted 1 month ago #