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Now we are getting somewhere. Its not illegal to rake up leaves or move a stone though is it? Break off a dead branch and throw it for your dog? The simple fact is that trails are going to happen there. The rangers can give permission I can supply resources all I want to do is get it all together so everyone benefits and not just mtbs. I take it yer still not gonna come play and see for yerself?
Yeah the feasability study is available and was commisioned by the countryside rangers. They will send ya copy but its 8mb so plenty space reqd. It takes about a week to get hold of it.
a) The fella says he's talking to the Rangers. Good oh, first rule of trailbuilding - get the land owner / managers permission.
b) Yes, I know what you're thinking, BUT HE'S SAID HE'S ALREADY BUILDING TRAILS, but he's invited you out to see what he's talking about as there's "BUILDING TRAILS" and "building trails". Take some time with that one, eh, it demands some subtle perception.
c) A feasability study has been mentioned, which I would have though you would have Googled the arse off by now and selectively quoted to high heaven.
d) If that really was your attempt to engage than might I suggest you reconsider how you go about it? Just because you say it isn't so and then he doesn't immediately falll into step you then bang on and on and on that it's ILLEGAL.
Please note I've not mentioned RLJing yet.
Ooops!
Hey ho
Whats rljing?
Red Light Jumping
TJ hates people doing anything illegal. Unless it's him. And he knows best 😉
BT - you may or may not be right, your plans may or may not be doomed. Heavenforbid in TJ's posts there might actually be the occassional gem of useful stuff. Whatever, good luck, I hope you achieve something, somewhere 😎
Personally, I always try to end up on the legit route as it makes it much less likely anything you invest time and effort in will get pulled out.
If you ever want to check out what we've done (internet or real world) see: www.singletraction.org.uk
Good luck with IMBA and Roz. On the occassions that I've met her she's seemed like one of the good ones.
Cheeky monkey - I know this site. I have a bit of a grasp of the law as it pertains to mountainbiking and land use.
to do what bigthunder is doing is not responsible as defined in the law, he does not have permission to do so, the area has alraeady got conflict between other users and mountainbikers.
bigthunder is insistent on continuing to do this.
This is the sort of activity that could easily spoil the access we now enjoy.
Tj - you have no idea what Im doing because you wont come see it. Your comments are useful and I dont mind an argument but yer not right on this one. Yet again meet me,come see what Im talking about and then see where it goes. Im going to meet the rangers and roz as well and do the same thing so come along with them if ya want. Dont know the dates but I can keep ya posted.
You are also not answering my points. Someone who has a grasp can explain whats illegal about raking leaves or moving a stone surely?
Bigthunder - I do know what you are doing -you are building trails without permission and insisting on continuing to do so.
You should not be doing this. concentrate on legal activity, help those of us who want to do things sustainably and legally.
Some kids built a not very discrete cement jump right in the middle of a walkers path on Corstorphine Hill. Is that the sort if thing you mean by trail building?
The area has a very natural feel to it and it should be left that way for walkers and families to enjoy without fear of being run down by speeding bikes.
Techyallmountain - no thats not what I mean. Thats exactly what I want to harness as well. I dont want to stop trailbuilding I want those kids out helping me to build responsibly. Have a look at the vid mentioned earlier and tell me if that seems like vandalism.
Bigthunder - this is the point you won't accept - without permission there is no responsible building of trails. Everything you build is irresponsible and illegal
Can't find the vid but I just looked at the stills on that link.
absolutly bang out of order. digging holes, concreting in stones.
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I also mentioned that I walk my dog up there with my kids and I have no desire to be run over by speeding bikes either - but its happening and should now be managed in a responsible way. Well built trails with proper signage for a start. Tj I just cant be bothered with you anymore. Ive covered yer points time and again, youve been offered the chance to see for yourself,Ive approached the rangers about this etc etc. I now just dont care what you say. Shame that.
You think digging holes and concreting in stones is acceptable and responsible. 🙄
You have not covered my points
Yo do not have permission to do this
You are digging holes inthe land
you are using concrete FFS to build in features
Only got my phone the now and not techy enough to do a link but when I get a mo I will post a pic of that in context and as a finished article. Further pics will follow Im sure and I will do the same with them.
Teh context is you are digging holes and using concrete to build trail features in a nature reserve.
There is plenty of stuff to ride on the hill legally and responsibly. Digging trails like this is irresponsible, illegal and ruins the goodwill we have.
I know the rangers on corstorphine hill spend time and effort removing stuff like this.
You know nothing of the context until you come see it.
Bigthunder - using concrete and digging holes in a nature reserve is wrong. Creating new trails, causing erosion by removing the ground cover.
Thats the context.
to claim that is responsible is breathtaking.
Please please please for the sake of us all stop doing this illegal and irresponsible trail building in a very sensitive nature reserve.
jeremy - i've met you and i know you're not the quite the same as the person that appears in posts like this.
the guy has said that he's trying to speak to the rangers and he appears to be willing to meet with you and be a fairly sensible human being.
sadly you just keep arguing with him and refusing to see anything other than your side.
why not meet up? and then post your take on it all afterwards. you have nothing to lose
Winston - have you seen the pictures of what he is doing? I am sorry but digging up a nature reserve, creating new trails and concreting in blocks is outrageous
I do not need to meet up with him. Nothing he can say or do would ever lead me to believe that is in any way acceptable to do.
I extend an invitation to anybody to come ride here. Not to prove/disprove anything but just because its so good. The trails are a bit tricky to find so local knowledge is handy. I dont want to post a route but if anyone wants to ride it themselves I can send you rough directions. I stay 5mins away from the hill and have done guide rides and skill sessions. And walks when I was injured!
It seems that you're concentrating on CH because you "live 5 minutes away".
This is extremely selfish. You'd be better concentrating your efforts somewhere more suitable where it will not annoy people and damage a sensitive environment.
and here come the sanctimonious histrionics ........
pfft!
Cheeky monkey - do you really think creating new trails from scratch by clearing ground cover, digging up the ground and concreting in blocks is acceptable in a nature reserve where there is already conflict between mountainbikers and other users?
Have you seen the pictures of what he has done?
You admit you do not know the area. I do. I have ridden there for 20 years
Just to reinforce what CM is saying, MTB trails and nature reserves are not incompatible. We're just about to get a new one in Bristol which is built in a nature reserve, and parts are in SSSI to boot.
This is despite years of unsanctioned trail construction at said site, some of which crossed over into silly territory with shonky wooden bits, shady jumps etc. If it's done correctly, it can be done.
If there's a problem with unsanctioned trail construction, the land manager may choose to manage that in differing ways depending on the site, the extent of the problem and what resources they have available. It also depends to a certain extent on who you are dealing with but they may take the view that it's better to have it going on under their noses than behind their backs. They may decide they want to ruthlessly destroy everything you build, but it's not a done deal.
It's always worth talking to the people in charge of managing a site as the perception of what they are like and the reality may be miles apart. It's also worth persisting and trying to build up a relationship. The ideal scenario is that you could agree some terms of use and even get these in writing. The worst case scenario is that you hip them to the existence of a bunch of really good trails which are then decommissioned. Again I don't know the area so it's your call.
TJ - probably best you don't admit to having ridden there for 20 years if bikes were banned for a decade prior to the LRA... (both things you said in this thread) 😀
However, while the OP presents an near-altruistic picture of ranger involvement, responsible trail building and so on, it doesn't really excuse the images in the link. If the trails are in the nature reserve area, which from description they would appear to be, then the responsible trail building argument falls over completely.
TJ- Just think of all the erosion you have caused over 20 years. A bit of trail amouring , altering trails around watercourses & improving drainage can lessen the future damage and makeit more enjoyable to ride (he is seeking approval ffs ) same as you hope to acheive elsewhere.
Bit of rock in the ground- so what? Being near a major city I would imagine quarrying has happened there for thousands of years.
I'm led to believe the Craigmillar park trails have had issues over land ownership (multiple land owners)
Edinburgh Leisure are looking at developments at Birdiehouse burn
They have a survey out at the moment.
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N6WFXSY
Pinkbike 😉Northwind - MemberI've never managed to get in touch with the Bonaly diggers- there's some on SDH I think-
Alasdair - bikes weren't banned (dunno where TJ got that from)
do you really think creating new trails from scratch by clearing ground cover, digging up the ground and concreting in blocks is acceptable in a nature reserve where there is already conflict between mountainbikers and other users
You're starting to sound a bit like Michael Vandeman now.
No matter where ya want to build a trail its always going to be sensitive. Its not selfish because lots of people want this not just me and anything in the sensitive areas of the hill Im already against. The feasability report has already identified areas that are non sensitive. Also discussing this with the rangers will help to stop this. You can never stop irresponsible trails but as Ive said maybe creating a club will help to bring it all together which is the aim here. These (selective)pics show patch up work and when I get a mo I will show the finished article. No new trails were created and nothing interferes with walkers paths. I can also post pics of patched up walls and neatly cut and weeded areas that I tend and noone else does except a 74yr old man. Vandal that I am.
Mr Agreeable - there is two areas on the hill that are used for trail building with the tacit consent of the rangers that manage the land. Both full of jumps and stuff. There is also a network of paths that are legal to ride plus many rock outcrops and the like for technical challenges.
All other built MTB trails are removed routinely.
This is a small area of land - a bit more than a mile by 1/2 mile in the suburbs of a city. It is a nature reserve.
It is under pressure because of the amount of usage it gets. there has been conflict over the years because of unsanctioned trail building such as the OPs. The unsanctioned trail building is used as an example of how irresponsible the MTBers are and used to a attempt to justify an MTB ban. this is in part why MTBs were banned there for years until the LRA superceeded the ban.
Alistir - I didn't ride on the hill in the years of the ban
GW - MemberAlasdair - bikes weren't banned (dunno where TJ got that from)
there were certainly signs up saying bikes were banned for a few years in the late 90s to the LRA came into being
here's a video from the hill that shows some of the trails that folk from the trail scotland forum have built. There was a thread there that showed how they built them. I think there was quite a lot of digging etc involved.
Still looks quite fun to ride.
(runs and hides)
Cheeky monkey - do you really think creating new trails from scratch by clearing ground cover, digging up the ground and concreting in blocks is acceptable in a nature reserve where there is already conflict between mountainbikers and other users?Have you seen the pictures of what he has done?
You admit you do not know the area. I do. I have ridden there for 20 years
First point, quite possibly not BUT I only really have your word for that and I have little faith in your objectivity or ability to present a situation which accurately captures the subtle nuances of reality. All trail building is disruptive and leaves unpleasant scars in the immediate aftermath. Nature recovers and soon encroaches again in the majority of situations. I can picture you screaming "CONCRETE" but honestly, who cares? Most hardcore surfacing is intended to "go off" to some degree using its inherenet cement-like properties. A bit of judicious and sympathetic use of proper concrete, whilst the knee-jerk is "no way" is likely to be fine.
BUT ......
Pictures blocked at work.
Your last comment - and again, you miss the gist, my point is about how you engage (or in less PC speak) talk to people. It's not about the technical merits for or against the idea BT puts forward. I was straight up about not knowing the site so as not to misrepresent what I was saying. I'm talking around the general issue without knowing the specifics.
Where I am dealing in specifics it's about how you talk to people. You're crap at it, IMO and far too soon go off into the equivaqlent of internet shouting IT'S ILLEGAL and I KNOW BEST. It's irritating and unconstructive.
I only hope in reality that you're not the same as you are on the internet. Some people have said you're not. But as you seem unprepared to meet up in person with the bloke you're merrily lambasting then I guess he'll never get to know, eh?
Gw this was an ongoing argument till about 2/3 yrs ago. Bikes then were not on according to various signs around the hill. What seems to be going on now is that the same people that didnt want bikes then are making it difficult for those that do. Misleading information,branches on trails,broken glass left in strategic places etc in order to try and dissuade mtbs. Just look back at the older foch newsletters and you will see these attitudes and measures have been tried for years and I think these people just cant accept they are going to have to put up with bikes.
And you really think building unsanctioned trails is going to help the situation? 🙄
Please reconsider what you are doing.
I take your point cheeky monkey but the same could be said the other way. Bigthunder kept stating his tails were responsibly built - in an nature reserve without permission. That can never be responsible.
I just hope that Bigthunder now has a bit more understanding of the issues around this and rethinks his activities.
I get exasperated because what he and others who think like him do does so much damage that responsible mountainbikers cannot put right and we all get tarred with the same brush.
When there is plenty of legal and tolerated trails to ride why create illegal ones?
For these trails no digging was done. Couple of rocks dug up and removed,couple of planks screwed into a tree stump,plenty raking and some dead bushes and branches cut back. These trails are all there and all we did was "trailor" them a bit to keep them open for all to use.
Signs mean **** all
and ****s who sobotage/booby trap woods need strung up
GW - my understanign is that it was a council bylaw
it wasn't