I mentioned this to the National Secular Society yesterday on twitter, that whilst the former is unacceptable the latter is quite properly questioned as it is merely a political philosophy (albeit rooted in a religious idea).
I was roundly shouted down as an Anti-Semite (even when I pointed out the Israeli State is Anti-Semetic as Palestinians are Semites too).
I don’t believe I am Anti-Semetic, but I do oppose the policy of the Israeli State over its occupation of Palestine lands, yet any questioning of this political philosophy is shouted own with cries of racism and accusations of extremism.
Your thoughts?

(even when I pointed out the Israeli State is Anti-Semetic as Palestinians are Semites too).

This doesn’t help in the slightest. As normally used in English, “anti-semitic” refers to a hatred of Jews. You know that, we all know that. The idea that Israeli policy is anti-semitic because they are (for various reasons) ghastly to arabs is just tiresome and best left to the full-on jew-haters to trot out.

Obviously one should as a matter of logic be able to distinguish between Jews (as a widely distributed religious, cultural, ethnic or whatnot group who decent people see as very much a part of British society) and Israel (as a nation state) but this is tricky politically and emotionally and will always be tricky, certainly until European and American Jews have completely forgotten about the Holocaust and why there is an Israel.

Well, we should never want to forget about the Holocaust but critising current Israeli policy is something far, far different & not linked as far as I can see.

Perhaps, maybe, this is just not a things that should be opined on twitter where it is hardly the forum for a nuanced discussion of the matters at hand. hardly possible to do this in posts of fewer than 140 characters. keep twitter to posts about what you’ve just had for dinner, your excitement or upset at a current sports result. avoid discussing the arab – israeli peace process or the events leading up the current dischord in the ME. Just a thought like.

I was going to say I agree with you muddydwarf but I also agree with jeffc. It is bad enough trying to sensibly discuss issues on here but twitter descends into abusive slagging matches in nano seconds.

Personally for what it is worth, I tend with the benefit of a lot of hindsight, privilege and detachment to see Zionism as a slightly wearying “ism” that was anachronistic well before 1947. But that it carved an exception for itself is not surprising unless we ignore the Holocaust (pro tip: do not ignore Holocaust)

As Israel’s Jewish population is there now, isn’t going to move, can still best its neighbours militarily and understandably wants to sit behind defensible borders rather than its 1947 borders, yelling at them is basically unproductive as an activity for the secular left. Ensuring that non-Israeli Jews living in our countries are comfortable, are not threatened and are integrated as much as they are content to be is a good thing in and of itself. But it has the minor side benefit that if no more non-Israeli Jews, anywhere, are ever again rendered so uncomfortable where they live that they want to live in Israel then that is a good thing from the point of view of conflict in the Israel/Palestine area generally.

Well, we should never want to forget about the Holocaust but critising current Israeli policy is something far, far different & not linked as far as I can see.

Realistically, of course they’re linked. Israel would have struggled to get off the ground without the population displacements created by the Holocaust. And the basic raison d’etre of the Israeli state is the protection of the Jewish people within its borders. Voices from the continent that has done the most historically to exterminate Jews, shouting “you’re protecting the Jews in an unnecessarily aggressive way” are not automatically seen as remotely friendly or helpful.

(I’m not getting at you (or not trying to), and I haven’t a lot of patience with the ugliness of a lot of Israeli behaviour. It just seems worthwhile bringing as much understanding as possible to why you get shouted down)

Anti-zionism isn’t anti-semitic, many orthodox hasidic jews are anti-zionist and (although this might change) do not do national service in the IDF. Zionism, like any racist ideology, will always be troublesome.

Also, jeffc speaks sense. For that reason I’m calling time on my remarks on the subject. 🙂

It was something said on the George Galloway thread that sparked of my memory, so thought I’d open this rather than derail that thread.
For what its worth I dislike Galloway intensely, but I do find the Zionists attempts at silencing him with accusations of racism worrying & very undemocratic.
There are many people of Jewish faith who oppose Zionism so conflating the two is in my mind a deliberate attempt at smearing shite on people.

The anti-semite charge is routinely deployed in the media whenever an Israeli policy is criticised. It is the way the Zionists see of shutting down dissent and discussion. It is also a tacit admission that they are wrong on whatever issue is being discussed at the time.

What Sandwich said

The irony of it is that the zionists almost casual over-use of the word anti-semite, to shut down pretty much any debate or criticism, cheapens it immeasurably, and that in itself is insulting to the victims of the holocaust

The State of Israel and IDF has for many decades relied on the Holocaust as a device for countering criticism of their genocide of Palestinian people. They are very happy, I’m sure, that many will not be critical of their horrendous policies of murder and torture for fear of being labeled anti-Semite.

BigDummy – wow, balanced, clearly well informed and nuanced commentry. Seriously hats off to the insight. It’s a rare thing in these ultra polarised times.

In my experience, anti-zionism has turned into textbook Jew hatred over the last five years or so.

Steven Sizer is a case in point. He is a C of E vicar who is vociferously anti-Israel, but continually denies being an anti-semite. So I took a look at his Facebook page, and his mix of over 2,000 friends is interesting to say the least: an eclectic combination of Holocaust deniers, Jews-control-the-world conspirators, and Hamas apologists.

It’s interesting reading Jon Ronson’s “Them” – he talks about extremism, and also meets several times with the ADL. Their idea is that people who are anti-Semitic often hide it by using code-words like “international financiers” when they mean “Jews”. It all get a bit bizarre.

This doesn’t help in the slightest.

On the contrary I think it’s very useful to remind people that Palestinians are Semites. It helps to highlight the absurdity of the Zionist claim that they are entitled to land because of where their ancestors lived several thousands of years ago.

Palestinians are simply Semites/Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam and never left the region. Most Zionists in contrast are much less Semitic than the Palestinians having mixed genetically with Europeans. If one of your grandparents was a Jew, or the grandparent of your husband/wife was a Jew, then you are entitled to Israeli nationality. It doesn’t make you much of a Semite though.

Having said that many Zionists challenge the racial/semitic purity of Palestinians, as you would expect from racists.

Ultimately all this racial labeling is nonsense of course, but such is the racist character of Zionism.

Polite, considered responses on a difficult subject. This thread should be closed before it descends!

A problem I see in France is that Jews are seen as untouchable. Anyone critical of them is immediately branded an anti-Semite (which is illegal) but Jews are free to criticise any other religion or group thanks to secular free speech laws.

Last year a boy in my son’s class in a public Lycée got an “anti-Semite” mention in his school record because he said he enjoyed Dieudonné sketches, without any reference to which sketches the boy liked.

This one for example which even my habitual sparing partner on “le voile” might enjoy. Dieudonné takes the Micky out of French institutions, Christians, atheists, Muslims, Africans, boat people and of course, in a very mild manner, Jews. I find it every bit as funny as Dave Allen at his best and not in the least shocking.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6k_uMG06_s&index=11&list=RDKnvQ_eOM1x4[/video]

Edit because I got the wrong vid

What worries me is the fear of being able to criticise and then being classed as racist.

At the recent Holocaust memorial all I could think about was the 2,000 civilians (including 500 children) killed by the IDF last year.

In reply to BigDummy
To me,it isn’t a case of Israel wanting to sit behind it’s borders and being left alone. It is it’s seemingly ongoing mandate to extend those borders at will and destabilise anybody it sees fit. The safety argument is in my opinion,now hollow.I define that as an especially zionist approach and mindset. We are now at the stage where it is a tragedy that many people in it’s border through no fault of there own are treated in a way that is increasingly similar to 1930’s Germany.

I’m waiting for a post involving pyramids and lizards….

It’s obvious to anyone with a brain that anti-zionist and anti-semetic are two different things. The issue is that people with brains also know to keep away from internet arguments on the subject, leaving the idiots to argue about it.

No pyramids and lizards I’m afraid, but the fact that self proclaimed Christians such as David Cameron and Boris Johnson are also self proclaimed Zionists puts paid to claims of Anti-Semitism.

It’s also a bit weird: how can you be both Christian and Zionist?

Christian zionism for Jive

What worries me is the fear of being able to criticise and then being classed as racist.

Why let it worry you Hora?, those around you that you trust and those who know you and your character are all you have to worry about – if their opinion of you is valid then say what you consider to be true to your understanding.

I’m often to be found muttering under my breath in the supermarket aisles as i check the provenance of fruit and veg (and all other goods) – i refuse to buy Israeli produce of any kind unless i know the company involved has a valid ethical policy/statement regarding the Issues.

It may seem (to some) to be trite doing the above.

Christian zionism for Jive

Thank you kindly…

a quick scan suggests we are governed by religious nutters!!

I find a lot of people seem to project their dislike of the actions of past and present Israeli governments onto the whole Israeli population.

Which, as pointed out above, is nonsense.

badnewz – Member
In my experience, anti-zionism has turned into textbook Jew hatred over the last five years or so.

As anti semites increasingly self identify as such, the term inevitably gains unwanted baggage.

There’s an awful lot of handwringing about ‘Israel’ without any real specific political discussion, which is a open door to ignorance and confusion between Judaism, Israel, it’s current population and the actions of it’s leaders.

Thank you kindly…

a quick scan suggests we are governed by religious nutters!!

Dubya was a big believer in the Rapture.

It’s normal for racists to claim to be the victims of racism. The BNP does it all the time.

I find a lot of people seem to project their dislike of the actions of past and present Israeli governments onto the whole Israeli population.

You can replace the underlined words with:

British/British
French/French
German/German
American/American

etc. for many nations.

I think you can safely add Blair to Dubya (Bush) as a zionist Christian. See the last thread I started.

Funnily enough, Blair, Bush and even Rupert Murdoch are all Papal Knights of Malta, like Jimmy Savile

How odd…

That ‘international financier’ stuff is interesting. When people don’t identify their cultural origins they are often claimed by journalists as being brought up in ‘north London’, ‘a liberal upbringing’ or ‘grandparent was a holocaust survivor’. The Guardian (a paper I have read for 40 years) does it all the time, it bores the **** out of me.

Funnily enough, Blair, Bush and even Rupert Murdoch are all Papal Knights of Malta, like Jimmy Savile

here we go…

How odd…

Indeed, specially as none are Maltese. Very odd.

So, are Israelis who have a dislike of the Zionist side of Israeli politics/actions anti-Semitic?

Israeli foreign ‘policy’ is pretty abhorrent IMO. Admittedly I can fully understand how it’s ended up where it has given the holocaust and the lasting effect that’s had on many but that doesn’t justify it.

Speaking as someone who would qualify for Israeli nationality…

It goes far beyond the holocaust, 1000 years of pogroms against the Jews in Europe.

I think the point still stands.

Sure, but I think concentrating on the holocaust is convenient for other countries. Zionism started gaining political momentum in the 19th century but has roots a lot earlier and this should not be overlooked especially in the context of the ‘other’ du jour in Europe today.

So, are Israelis who have a dislike of the Zionist side of Israeli politics/actions anti-Semitic?

No the Zionists have got round that little problem by describing them as “self-haters”. Which imo is even more insulting than calling them anti-Semitic.

Can you imagine if those white South Africans who so tirelessly fought against the Apartheid regime had been called “self-haters” ?

Only zionists get away with that sort of bollocks.