[Closed] Another cyclist killed

I heard about this through my wife as the description of the poor chap involved sounded very much like myself.

I'm finding it a touch odd that it's being reported on national news on the BBC radio stations. Slow news day?

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26705915 ]Christian Smith RIP[/url] gives more details. Please donate to his Justgiving.com page if you feel able (I know nothing about the guy other than he was doing an epic ride to raise money for the mental health charity MIND)

BBC link here: http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-26705915

Christian Smith was raising money for Mind. His just giving Page has hit 10k since his death.

https://www.justgiving.com/KentEpic/ Christian Smith - Just Giving

Tragic, of course this driver will get banged up because she was pissed, but if she had just been careless....

RIP Christian, my condolences to your family & friends.

So very sad for the cyclists family and freinds another cyclist dies at the hands of a pissed driver.

Instant ban,remand into custody and car crushed for all road deaths, thats what should happen,

So very sad.
Cycling to collect money for MIND.
A cause close to my heart as I suffer mental health issues.
RIP

Oh crap what have I done....6 days to go. Birthday drinks in Kings Head on 29th March if I am still alive by then

16/03/14 19:19

RIP

Speechless. I hope she does proper time not a suspended sentance the dickhead waste of space.

That junction is less than a mile from where I live. Have spent a worrying couple of hours touching base with my riding friends. Stupid, stupid woman. I had to deal with a car accident last Sunday night, a drunk driver smashed into a wall right outside the pub I was in. Her plus two elderly passengers, one unconscious with a facial injury and the other with severe chest pain. That was fun to sort out for me and mrs yossarian until the paramedics, police and fire brigade pitched up.

RIP to the fella and great sympathies to his family. It should not have happened.

I know it is knee jerk but I get so wound up by these things. No doubt the 18 year old is devastated but someone lost their life.

If she is found to have been drink driving then a mahoosive fine, a ban from driving [b]for life[/b] and not just a week and her car crushed in front of her. Oh and she should have to pay for it to be crushed.

Sadly though I guess she'll end up with a two week ban and a £350 fine or thereabouts. 🙁

She should be made to sit with the family of the poor guy at his funeral.

I hope the level of donations to his just giving page give his family some comfort.

Rest in peace.

Reading the report on BBC news it says the GIRL has been bailed until July 26th. Imo she may never want to drive again for a long time, however she might have no morals and get behind the wheel again, therefore what is stopping her getting pissed and driving again in the 4 months she is on bail. RIP Christian you were supporting a great cause and hopefully some of the stigma will be taken away from mental health issues sooner rather than later.

Donated as a small gesture of support for a fellow fundraising cyclist. Sad news. 🙁

Very sad indeed

Maybe a cyclist group/club could complete on his behalf

Donations up to £34000 now.

Sad news indeed, well worth the donation 🙁 ... RIP Fella

Less than a mile from my house, I saw the emergency services on their way to scene whilst riding to work just after 4am, feels to close to home and makes me feel quite vulnerable riding to work at a time of morning I normally feel safe being so quiet.

£42,669.67 now.

RIP rider.

Donating is the best way to show how much we care about road murders, as well as helping the charity and making a good memorial to Christian.

The total on the Justgiving now is amazing and still climbing. Small comfort to his family, but certainly a substantial amount of money is now going to his chosen charity.

£50,000 and rising

Just heard that a second person has been arrested.

? Is it going to turn out that the girl wasn't actually driving?

Two cars racing?

Passenger dicking about - pulling handbrake?

Supervising a learner?

surely if they're pissed and killed someone thy'll go to prison for a few years at least? And quite right to....

scumbag

Let's not make any assumptions shall we. The truth will come out soon enough. A bit of respect would be nice nice.

The truth will come out soon enough

Unfortunately, experience of other cases shows that is unlikely.

How about we click through to the BBC website and it may put the story up the "Most read" top 10? Not sure how many clicks it will take to affect it mind?

It may help raise more donations?

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26714073 ]BBC News Link[/url]

gobuchul - Member
How about we click through to the BBC website and it may put the story up the "Most read" top 10? Not

Great idea.

I wish I could do the same thing he was trying to do. My mental health issues meant I struggle to get on my bike. I would so love to get on but haven't been on for nearly 3 years and put on 5 stone.
Maybe we do an STW road ride. Snowdonia or Styria,Austria best for me. I would need a bit of time to train and it would be a slow ride.

Just down the road from work & a colleague is currently training for London-Paris, news didn't say what charity just that he was a fund-raising cyclist so we feared the worst.

RIP and condolences to family & friends.

Let's not make any assumptions shall we. The truth will come out soon enough. A bit of respect would be nice nice.

If thats aimed at me I'm merely stating what is on the BBC site. No mention of drink involved in the original link.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26714073 ]BBC Report[/url]

His Justgiving page is over £64k now!
I like others never knew him but wanted to show my support for a fellow cyclist with a donation
Lets hope it reaches the £100k mark

hydrophil - Member

Lets hope it reaches the £100k mark

I was thinking the same thing.

Update from Kent Police with some reaction from his family

[url= http://www.kent.police.uk/news/latest_news/140323_rtc.html ]http://www.kent.police.uk/news/latest_news/140323_rtc.html[/url]

The families tribute.

Family tribute

Christian’s family has issued the following tribute: ‘Even in the depths of our grief we are moved beyond belief at the outpouring of love and support that has been shown by so many, especially as most didn't even know Christian. His story has touched cyclists and mental health sufferers, families and individuals across the world.

‘He is a husband, father, son, brother, uncle, cousin and friend who will always be so dearly loved and remembered.

‘We are all so proud of everything that he has achieved. His death was tragic and we pray that no one else has to suffer similar sorrow and heartache. Christian had a great sense of humour, he loved life, his family and was a dedicated cyclist.’

Nearly at £75k now.

Donations are slowing down, but still ticking over. Hopefully it will still reach £100k.

His widow is going to complete the ride. That'll be pretty emotional 🙁

[url= http://road.cc/content/news/116801-widow-charity-cyclist-christian-smith-complete-ride-her-husband-was-killed ]http://road.cc/content/news/116801-widow-charity-cyclist-christian-smith-complete-ride-her-husband-was-killed[/url]

So very sad.
Cycling to collect money for MIND.
A cause close to my heart as I suffer mental health issues.
RIP

+1

[url= http://www.kentonline.co.uk/herne-bay/news/teenage-drink-driver-jailed-for-28940/ ]Drink driver Beth Mackie from Herne Bay jailed for causing the death by dangerous driving of Ashford cyclist Christian Smith[/url]

Some hard reading in there. The family statement has really made me reflect as I prepare to ride home 🙁

I will be giving my wife and son an extra hug tonight.

Mackie was jailed for five years, banned from driving for five years and she will have to re-take her driving test.

Assuming those are concurrent (as I believe they usually are), what's the point in the ban?

It's right she's going to jail, but little consolation for Christian's family I'm sure.

@njee being jailed for 5 years means she will serve 2 or 2.5. The driving ban will remain at 5 years. None of this long enough in my view.

She'll probably be out of jail in a couple of years but at least she won't (legally) be able to drive her car until at least the end of the 5 years.

To be honest I think this news should be publicised much better with it being the main headline on the BBC and ITN national news, just to make a few other drivers think and realise there is payback for their stupid actions.

Mmm, yes, so it's really a 2 year ban, I just don't get why they're concurrent.

Quite pathetic regarding the ban, obviously the court knows 5 years doesn't mean 5 years and has banned accordingly.

Imo she doesn't deserve the right to drive again, it is not a right.

Not sure the sentence is long enough, but it's longer than some sentences for similar offences.

Needs a high profile so drivers understand actions have consequences.

Personally I don't understand why we [b][i]ever[/i][/b] allow someone back behind the wheel after they have been found guilty of Death by Dangerous Driving. It's madness.

@njee - it's effectively a two year sentence and a 5 year driving ban. Its quite common for jail sentences to be concurrent so this seems consistent

Personally I don't understand why we ever allow someone back behind the wheel after they have been found guilty of Death by Dangerous Driving. It's madness

Concurrent because prison is variable , subject to appeal early release ,Home Detention curfew home leave licence etc and indeed recall to serve full term . So one needs clarity as to when starts and ends this is also an indefinite ban in so far as she needs to take and pass the extended test before getting her licence back.

Far too much of this around, sadly - just locally:

[url= http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/11700692.Cyclist_killed_in_road_crash_named/ ]Cyclist killed on A3, man arrested for driving without due care[/url]

The incident is one of three in the past week in which cyclists have died.

Also on New Year's Day, at about 4am, a 23-year-old man died after he was in collision with a Ford Focus car on the A259 Grand Parade, St Leonards, East Sussex.

Three men and a boy, were arrested later during the day, all on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving.

And on December 28, a 79-year-old cyclist, Michael Long - of Hop Gardens, Fairwarp, East Sussex, died after he was in collision on the A22 at Nutley with a Renault Megane being driven by a 32-year-old man from East Grinstead.

I'm all for more stringent sentencing as a deterrent, but bans can be (and often are) ignored.

I'm not sure about that though. I suspect that in this case this girl will be more that aware of the consequences of what she did and is unlikely to do it again.

Why take the risk though? She might be a reformed character when she comes out, or she might turn out to be an alcoholic with a sociopathic disregard for other road users.

By the same token, someone who has done time for armed robbery might well just want a shotgun license to do spot of clay-pigeon shooting. But he shouldn't be given one!

The difference is that driving is seen as a basic human right, which cannot be permanently removed even if someone fatally demonstrates that they can't be trusted to do it safely.

Why take the risk though? She might be a reformed character when she comes out, or she might turn out to be an alcoholic with a sociopathic disregard for other road users.

The only reason I would want a lifetime ban would be as a deterrent but as noted earlier, it's not clear that that works. I also applaud Scotland's reduction of the limit. I think some folk think that any limit other than zero means a little is ok and they get to choose how much that is

Why take the risk though?

As has been mentioned, driving should be a right and not a privilege. IMO driving bans should be handed out more frequently, should be longer, and where appropriate should be permanent. I think in most cases a long or permanent driving ban serves the public interest much more than a prison sentence.

Genuinely remorseful. For who? A measure for herself no doubt. God sometimes takes the bright and the good as he needs help in heaven.

It's the sort of thing that can kill but it was also clearly a stupid mistake. I would rather have retraining that a ban for life

If your electrician made a genuine mistake that could cost someone their life then that is one thing.

But if he made that "mistake" because he was pissed and behaving recklessly then that is a different matter surely?

The only reason I would want a lifetime ban would be as a deterrent but as noted earlier, it's not clear that that works

Yeah I don't think prison sentences are very effective as a deterrent for exactly that reason: few people set out to drive dangerously and no one (sane) sets out to kill someone.

But why should they ever be allowed behind the wheel again if they do?

I had the privilege of meeting Kate Cairns and listening to her talk bravely about her sister Eilidh Cairns, who was killed by Joao Lopes when he hit her from behind after he made the "mistake" of not wearing his glasses while driving his tipper truck.

He got a £200 fine and 3 points.

If he had been banned from driving then maybe he wouldn't have made that same "mistake" again and killed a second person just sixteen months later. 🙁 (in a vehicle with an illegally disabled tachograph system that could interfere with the brakes)

http://eilidhcairns.com/eilidhs-crash/the-investigation-and-sentence/

(and even then he only got disqualified for 6 years!)

http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/joao-lopes-sentence.html

Not many people pass the extended retest, so I wouldn't be worrying too much about her getting her driving licence back.

@Graham - thought provoking links.

^ i knew of this but just read that stuff and it's disgusting. We as humans should be ashamed of ourselves.

your example shows the problem with sentencing and predicting future behaviour (lets ignore the clearly inadequate initial sentence). What would happen if we started applying that sort of rule to all the people who get caught 'making progress' for want of a better description. Drink driving or driving without your glasses are things most of us wouldn't do so are happy to apply the 'never drive again' rule. Speeding is a different matter and although there may not be any initial injury we could argue that it shows dangerous behaviour so we are just avoiding future accidents

Wanmankylung do you have a source for your coment re pass rate for the extended test?

A lot of people on this forum want permanent bans for drivers who kill as a result of their poor driving, just wondering if people share the same sentiment when 'life' sentences are handed down for murder etc...should 'life' mean life in those cases?

Some people on here argue that a person can become a reformed character in prison and that being released for a crime such as murder is the right thing to do once the sentence has been served....and yet as a forum of cyclists we grab the pitchforks and start foaming at the mouth when it comes to motorists who kill (generally) by accident.

Drunk and speeding = accident?

It comes down to intent doesnt it?

If i throw a punch i'm trying to hurt somebody, if i stab somebody i'm trying to hurt them or even worse actually kill them....if i get in my car pissed (however stupid that may be) i havent actually set out thinking "right, lets find a cyclist to run down"....the consequences are horrific but the intent to harm isnt there.

It disgusts me that there is hardly any coverage of these sad happenings. Media coverage of harsh sentencing can be the only way drivers will learn.

Here's an [url= http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/67911 ]epetition[/url] take a look. Scum like this shouldn't have a second chance at being a part of society.

And such a topic only hits 2pages whereas anything about a politician from 30yrs ago might go into 20+pages QuickTime on here.

Speeding is a different matter and although there may not be any initial injury we could argue that it shows dangerous behaviour so we are just avoiding future accidents

True, but you have to draw a line somewhere and an actual conviction for Death by Dangerous Driving seems like a pretty simple level.

I agree that speeding might correlate with a certain attitude towards road safety, but when it goes beyond speeding and into actual "dangerous driving" then another line has been crossed.

(I actually think the current points system for speeding is sufficient [b]IF[/b] they actually removed people's licences when they clock up 12 points. But they don't.)

Some people on here argue that a person can become a reformed character in prison and that being released for a crime such as murder is the right thing to do once the sentence has been served....and yet as a forum of cyclists we grab the pitchforks and start foaming at the mouth when it comes to motorists who kill (generally) by accident.

I don't see the contradiction.

People have a basic right to their freedom, which they forfeit for an extended period if they commit a serious crime.

People [b]do not[/b] have a basic right to drive. It is a licensed privilege which can (or should) be revoked if they demonstrate that they cannot be trusted to safely operate a vehicle.

> ...who kill (generally) by accident.
> It comes down to intent doesnt it?

They didn't set out to kill someone, but if they were done for dangerous driving then they behaved in a way which a jury agrees put innocent people at risk of injury or death (such as speeding whilst more than double the alcohol limit).

The thing is drink drivers rarely drink drive as a one off. Its habitual. When they are 'caught' its 'I only decided to drive at the last moment'.

^ Not always the case though.

Not to mention the fact that that decision can often be impaired by the fact they are drunk!

A close friend of mine served an 18month ban for drink driving, he drove less than half a mile home at 3am in the morning, and was stopped by police because he took a corner a bit too wide and fast in front of them, he was that far gone, he did it right in front of a police car.

Once sober he was devastated by his own stupidty, despite him facing the loss of his job and only means of transport to his ageing parents who live on a farm in the middle of Dartmoor he didn't make any attempt to defend or wriggle out of it in court because he knew what he had done, he probably could have reduced his ban if he'd tried but he didn't.

He's said over and over again that the decision to drive that 1/2 mile that night is one he never would have taken while sober. He also didn't go out with the intention of getting drunk that night, but drunk he got, and it impaired him enough to make a stupid decision later.

A catch 22 for him, he didn't intend to get drunk. And while sober he wouldn't have even entertained the idea of driving while drunk *

What he could have done is decided not to drink at all, or as soon as he knew he was going to have a drink given his keys to someone else, but that's being doubly pre-emptive, and trying to instil that behaviour in people is difficult. He didn't give his keys to anyone because he didn't think he would try and drive after drinking, but his alcohol impaired brain decided otherwise.

* [i]not making excuses for him at all, he was an idiot, he got what he deserved and he is just lucky he didn't hurt anyone or himself. And I'm tee-total and have been my entire life, but I can see how he got into that situation without intending to.

Hopefully we can get to a point where its socially unacceptable to drink and drive at all, but the alcohol impairs judgement and humans are fallible, until we have cars that can tell if you have alcohol in your system and refuse to start we're going to have to live with reducing the instances as much as possible rather than eliminating them entirely.[/i]

Yup, that's exactly what the lower limits in Scotland are about- taking away that "I'll take the car and have one drink" which sometimes leads to "I'll have a couple more and just get the bus home" then once the decision-making process is screwed by drink, to "I feel fine, I'll just drive home". Not that this is excusable but it's more understandable than deciding while sober to drink and drive.

he drove less than half a mile home at 3am in the morning

I realise his judgement was impaired, but how pissed do you have to be to decide that is a better idea than simply leaving the car and walking home, especially if it is so essential to him?

Apparently pissed enough to then wobble round a corner at speed in front of a police car.

but to actually answer your question I guess that's either

A. extremely
B. not so pissed that he didn't reason that he was OK enough to risk it on the basis that it was only 1/2 a mile, but pissed enough that he shouldn't have.

point is, a decision he would not have made sober, he did make while drunk. Which means the point at which you need to make the right decision is exactly the point at which you're less likely to.

I'm all for zero limit and zero tolerance, hopefully will put people on the front foot and make them (while sober) not put themselves in a situation where they can make a bad decision while drunk later.

I hate driving to the pub as I know without doubt it'll involve me leaving prematurely just when you don't really want to. So I engineer a means to get a lift/stay over etc in advance. Plus driving back on a Fri or Sat night theres a high chance you will be pulled. Around where I used to live and my current you can hear the familiar short whoop-whoop of a Police car pulling someone over. It was worse in my old house- even dinner guests used to be pulled on the short 500m stretch at the top of our road.

Northwind - Member
Yup, that's exactly what the lower limits in Scotland are about- taking away that "I'll take the car and have one drink" which sometimes leads to "I'll have a couple more and just get the bus home" then once the decision-making process is screwed by drink, to "I feel fine, I'll just drive home".

If they're going to that level of restriction why not just ban it completely

It's not really an extreme "level of restriction" - it just seems that way because [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_content ]the UK has one of the slackest legal alcohol limits in the world.[/url].

The new Scottish limit of 0.05% brings it in line with most of Europe. I suspect that, like the smoking ban, the rest of the UK will adopt this once they see how it works in Scotland.

[img] [/img]

@ Pinkster Total zero tolerance isn't really workable, there's legit reasons why you might have a trace- so they've brought the limit down to be less than a pint or a large glass of wine for most people, which will push most folks towards zero, and all the advice, literature etc is "the best advice is none". "A couple of small drinks" would take most people over.

Here's a question.

In 20 years of driving I've never once been pulled over and breathalysed nor have I ever seen a random roadside test station with people getting pulled.

Despite all the anti-drink drive stuff it does seem bizarre to have lasted 20 years without being checked once. Has anyone else experienced this or am I the exception? I'd love to see a lot more random checks going on.