Still about you then

Well I am not forcing other people to have a pop and i have asked for it to stop so yes clearly my fault ….faultless logic.

but all of your above post is obfuscation.

I rather feel it asks question you cannot answer as it is not possible to defend this managers behaviour hence you dont even try.

I dont know any of the facts or history of his managers actions so its impossible for me to comment. As with all of these things there are two sides. You seem to take the OPs as fact then extrapolate from there with lots of generalisations about poor employers etc.
Simply because you can make up questions doesn’t mean they are good ones or worthy of a response.
You have mentioned contracts etc hence my question. Feel free not to answer it but you cant have it both ways, referring to them one minute then ignoring requests to demonstrate them the next.

Human nature – if you’re good at your job your boss will be more flexible. If you’re inefficient, unhelpful or difficult to work with, then your boss will be less flexible –

thats BS some managers are just crap and will push and push and if no one stands up to them will ride roughshod over thise they think they can bully easily

conversely some employees will take the piss as much as they can

Im surprised at so many people are attacking the OP yet defending a manager who……..

seemed to show a general lack of professional courtesy towards me or my work and will make snide or sarcastic remarks in front of others…often to make me look small…

Im surprised at so many people are attacking the OP yet defending a manager who……..

i am not defending the manager and if thats true its appaling. Its not fair to jump to the conclusion that all of these things are true simply from the OP. They may or may not be.

Human nature – if you’re good at your job your boss will be more flexible. If you’re inefficient, unhelpful or difficult to work with, then your boss will be less flexible – especially where it’s a less formal thing (rather than a formal clocking system).

Sometimes people are too good at their job and managers get frightened by staff that will outshine them. This insecurity then means that your role gets diminished and no credit gets oven for your work, I’ve seen that happen before…

You seem to take the OPs as fact

Well they are all we have to go on.I suppose we could have just called then am liar [ and everyone else who starts a thread without verifiable proof]. Seemsa bit pointless though.

then extrapolate from there with lots of generalisations about poor employers etc.

what extrapolation ? What have I made up I just refer to what the OP has stated. Show me something I made up not in the OPS posts? I like the way you make something up whilst accusing me of making something up – was that intentional ? If so Chapeau.

Simply because you can make up questions doesn’t mean they are good ones or worthy of a response.

All you have to do is say if it is good or bad management- this seems fairly relavant to this topic

Feel free not to answer it but you cant have it both ways,

Oh the ironing …. how about I reply with this

Simply because you can make up questions doesn’t mean they are good ones or worthy of a response.

Was that intentional irony as it really made me chuckle 😆
You wont answer but i should …awesome.

. Its not fair to jump to the conclusion that all of these things are true simply from the OP. They may or may not be.

So your answer is Dunno then as i dont know what is true or false so you cannot possibly comment ?

Good luck OP hope it all works out well for you I doubt any clarity will come from the following “debate”

kimbers – Member
thats BS some managers are just crap and will push and push and if no one stands up to them will ride roughshod over thise they think they can bully easily

Yeah, there are loads of crap managers out there but you’re trying to tell me that it’s not human nature to treat someone more flexibly if they are good at their job, flexible in return and not a pita to work with?? I didn’t say anything about bullying.

what extrapolation ? What have I made up I just refer to what the OP has stated. Show me something I made up not in the OPS posts?

The OP made a statement then you followed on with:

Yes those are the facts do you have a view on it ?

I think you are playing fast and loose with the term “facts”

It seems clear he is being deliberately targeted

Not to me and it would appear a number of others on here.

Employers will take the piss if they can get away with it and flexibility is one direction – try and get paid for not working if you think this is not the case or start coming in late and leaving early if you want to see what they think of “flexibility” and your contractual terms

This is not my experience. It maybe yours but you dont appear objective. I would call this extrapolation given the limited evidence we have.

perhaps the current manager cannot spot talent or rewards arse lickers above talent

Again you are making a rather large leap based on the above bias.

Companies often expect work for nothing so it shows that it is all take and no give

In your experience again. Mine is different which means there may be at least two sides to this story.

Do you think the manager will forget he turned up late due to his car troubles

I dont know, neither do you but you are prepared to make an assumption.

You wont answer but i should …awesome.

Well the point being mine was a reasonable question related specifically to “contracts” as you kept mentioning it. Your questions were a bit silly based around “what do you think” etc and were purely hypothetical.
Dont answer mine I really dont care but if you keep on referring to contracts and their obligations etc then dont be surprised if people ask for some evidence of them (of course I dont mean for us to see them but for the OP to refer to them in the course of his request to his manager)

dashed – Member

Human nature – if you’re good at your job your boss will be more flexible

That’d be nice. But sometimes being good at your job means your boss feels threatened, or decides to take advantage. Also human nature. And sometimes a personal opinion overrides the reality of whether or not you’re good at your job. Also human nature.

what extrapolation ? What have I made up I just refer to what the OP has stated. Show me something I made up not in the OPS posts?
The OP made a statement then you followed on with:

Yes those are the facts do you have a view on it ?
I think you are playing fast and loose with the term “facts”

Sorry I ask you about proof of extrapolation and you comment on the use of the words facts. I think we have all established you have no opinion because we have no facts to work with hence why you are expressing no opinion so clearly. 😉
Next Time i will make sure i add the caveat [ as claimed by the OP but we have no independent verifiable way of knowing the truth or otherwise of such claims]
Happy?

It seems clear he is being deliberately targeted
Not to me and it would appear a number of others on here.

well everyoine else worked late and got two hours toil and he got one.
What would you call this – I asked you to comment and you simply commented on how poor my questions were. Why not explain why this is a fair and reasonable management decision and not targetting?

Employers will take the piss if they can get away with it and flexibility is one direction – try and get paid for not working if you think this is not the case or start coming in late and leaving early if you want to see what they think of “flexibility” and your contractual terms
This is not my experience. It maybe yours but you dont appear objective. I would call this extrapolation given the limited evidence we have.

So your experience fine and mine extrapolation and your experience is objective and mine is subjective
comedy gold 😆
PS as it it is your objective [sic] experience that employers will pay you for not working – do you have any contacts in this industry as I am very keen to not work and get paid.

perhaps the current manager cannot spot talent or rewards arse lickers above talent
Again you are making a rather large leap based on the above bias.

Sorry I assumed you knew what perhaps meant …..forgive me for my assumption 😳

Companies often expect work for nothing so it shows that it is all take and no give
In your experience again. Mine is different which means there may be at least two sides to this story.

There may be multiple sides to this story. Why dont you guess at what theyu are whilst criticising me for “extrapolating
This is trully brilliant stuff 😀

Do you think the manager will forget he turned up late due to his car troubles
I dont know, neither do you but you are prepared to make an assumption.

No the OP said he had to take 1/2 a day of work and he complained he was 2 hours late and 1/2 day was more time given how long a day was. My assumption here was to assume you had read and remembered what they said …again forgive me for thinking you had paid attention.
.

Your questions were a bit silly based around “what do you think” etc and were purely hypothetical.

This is simple as i can make it.
Is it good management [ if it happened if you prefer] to give TOIL to all the people present for 2 hours and to give one person only one hour and reluctantly ?

We both know it is not and I have no idea why you have not just said so and done this instead

Anyway before the lock and the ban hammer I shall leave you and other to it
Some brilliant stuff there

What I do care is that of their own volition they do whatever is required to ensure their work does not suffer (take a bit home, come in early next day etc).

If staff are regularly required to do this, you’re under resourced. Another sign of poor management.

Do you get paid sick pay. ? If yes and you have a clean sick record (if it was me) I would phone in sick go to your GP and tell them you have stress due to work…send a letter to HR explaining every thing you have told us.

It sounds like bullying and NO body should have to put up with it in..

Hope every thing turns out ok for you.. I have been in a simler position 2years ago and it not a good place to be.

So your experience fine and mine extrapolation and your experience is objective and mine is subjective
comedy gold

I think despite the miracle of copy and paste you are simply being obtuse. From your extrapolation you are jumping to a conclusion and from my experience I am saying we simply dont know.
You are jumping to a conclusion I am saying we dont have enough evidence.
If you cant see the difference between those two positions I really despair. Comedy gold is right.

Sorry I ask you about proof of extrapolation and you comment on the use of the words facts. I think we have all established you have no opinion because we have no facts to work with hence why you are expressing no opinion so clearly.

You do realise this makes no sense dont you. with regard to your use of the work “facts” the point (as you know) that I was making was you have taken the OPs post and then presented it as a “fact” upon which to base your following arguments. That is extrapolation.

well everyoine else worked late and got two hours toil and he got one.

Well according to the OP but without evidence we cant be sure that the process was followed consistently. Again you are now presenting this as a fair reflection of events.
I was actually refering in my post to the “fact” that many other posters on here where sceptical of the OP’s performance given some of the other items he mentions. I think you may have deliberatley misunderstood this 😉

PS as it it is your objective [sic] experience that employers will pay you for not working – do you have any contacts in this industry as I am very keen to not work and get paid.

Again I have made it very clear that the flexibility that we both agree is a good thing (you did agree that didnt you :roll:) means that this may be manifested by somebody coming in late or leaving early. By definition this means that they are being paid for not being there. I hope I have made that clear for you.

Why dont you guess at what theyu are whilst criticising me for “extrapolating
This is trully brilliant stuff

I am criticising you for extrapolating based on your prejudice. What has guessing mean in this context? did this make sense when you wrote it?

Anyway before the lock and the ban hammer I shall leave you and other to it

Well really given your first page smart arse post that was condescending 😀 and in that post you said you were leaving IIRC but you are still here 😀

From your extrapolation you are jumping to a conclusion and from my experience I am saying we simply dont know.

again I am not extrapolating – you have yet to show this tbh
You using your experience and applying it to this situation is extrapolation or a guess. You either think it is ok or you think it is not ok
Your current position of thinking it is only ok when you do it and bias and prejudice when you think someone else does it is nonsensical [and amusing]

Well according to the OP but without evidence we cant be sure that the process was followed consistently. Again you are now presenting this as a fair reflection of events.

You have no evidence to think it is not true and why join a thread if all you will say is the OP might be lying? It seems pointless not to mention a biased prejudicial extrapolation 😉
you might be lying about your experience – would it help if I assumed that?Would it help if we just assume every poster is lying.It would make all this a bit [more] pointless if we did this.

I have made it very clear that the flexibility that we both agree is a good thing (you did agree that didnt you :roll:)

yes i said it explicitly a few posts before your said i was inflexible so I had to repeat it till you got it- still well done for remembering it this time. I am proud of you.

What has guessing mean in this context? did this make sense when you wrote it?

Well did it 😀 One of your best so far
PS Did you say whether you thought it was good management or not ?

Oh no of course not we are still doing this

I wonder if it’s possible to bore a person to death…

Thing is, you can’t take anything anyone says here anywhere at face value, there is always room for doubt. But if every response to every thread is “Well, that’s just one version of events” then things’ll get pretty dull fast. Though obviously still not as dull as a big hitter type-off.

“Dear Singletrack, yesterday I cracked my frame, what new frame should I get?”

“We’ve only got your word that the frame’s cracked! I think you should keep your old frame”

wow it’s a big hitter quote fuction shoot out 🙂

Speak to Unison. Even if you aren’t a member they should be able to give you some advice about the situation in terms of employment law.
Also at a uni and they have helped me in the past, although am a member.
Or just go ahead and join…

Jeez just flash read the last 2 pages.

Some of that bollox up there is why I think unions should be abolished. They were necessary for their time but now just hark back to a bygone time in the workplace.

It’s all been said up there, on my experience of managing quite a lot of people the vast majority of performance issues in a dept come from a small number of people, who seem maybe through severe bad luck have lots of stuff go wrong, regualrly.

If you think you can do better get another job. If not get your head down and stop giving people reasons to fire you. That post about sick leave with stress is another golden bit of evidence about how these people abuse the system.

Jobs aren’t a right, a lot of people out there would love your job….

This is all far easier in law firms.

If someone isn’t very good, their work rapidly piles up as they burn the midnight oil trying to stay afloat and deal with vicious negative criticism and being ignored by their superiors. After a while, they suffer a nervous breakdown and swiftly leave.

I believe we have an HR department, but I think it deals chiefly with pregnant women and the creation of baroque performance appraisal forms that are irrelevant as you are either (a) doing OK, but could work harder or (b) under the care of a psychiatrist and looking for a new job.

🙂

wow it’s a big hitter quote fuction shoot out

I thought I could compete but even I lost the will to live and could barely recall what I was trying to say. I had flashbacks to the TJ days where you simply get beaten by a persons greater time and internet access.

Some of that bollox up there is why I think unions should be abolished. They were necessary for their time but now just hark back to a bygone time in the workplace.

Unions abolished? Well, that’s a fairly grandiose pronouncement. It’s a pity that folk feel this way – but no great surprise. Stronger worker representation is very much needed in these times. Not as much as when “worker” were viewed as little more than consumables, but needed all the same. I suppose they’re a bit of a fly in the ointment for companies that wish to shaft their employees.

<mod>
Plz 2 be stopping arguing now, kkthxbi.
</mod>

I suppose they’re a bit of a fly in the ointment for companies that wish to shaft their employees.

Greater worker protection today (although always room for improvement) which means less of a need but there is no doubt that if they disapeared things would regress quickly.

Well, that’s a fairly grandiose pronouncement.

It was said by a manager.

My view is that the Union represent/advocates for the workers to management and we all try and get along. Everyone wants to enjoy work and every employer wants a happy workforce. Hostility, from either side, helps no one and I view the role more as a communication one than a battle tbh.

Often I am more effective at pointing out to staff that they are being unreasonable than “management ” are as they know I am on their side.

Perhaps I have been lucky in that I have always had fair employers who have always tried their best.

I still think it makes little sense to assume the OP’s post is untrue and the manager is still acting unlawfully.

It seems from the multitude of “I’m being shafted” threads on here and from the experiences of two close friends (of course, they could have been bullshitting) who really were shafted recently, that in non-unionised workplaces, especially, larger corporations, that it is often seen as easier to just GTFO and find a new job rather than take the employer to a tribunal because of the hassles and stresses of an individual fighting against much bigger resources. Were I in the same situation, I guess I’d probably just go sheepishly in the end too as life is too short and all that. But there is no doubt that larger corporations that advantage of this.

Unions aren’t generally needed for the kind of stuff for which they were set up – which really was to see if workers could be expected to make it home alive on an evening to eat supper with their families (legislation takes care of most of that; was that pushed originally by employers I wonder?) – but I see no reason why they shouldn’t fight to get employees a larger chunk of the pie. After all, if none of the main parties are willing to narrow the gap between rich and poor, then I’d happily let the unions have a go. Look at tube-drivers – out-earning most of STW by a long shot. 🙂

Employers always hold the upperhand as it is after all their ball [ bit like mods] so unions certainly help as it gives a formal and “neutral” service to speak up on your behalf rather thn ahave an individual have to do it alone and look like they are the problem as no one else complains.
On this thread there was plenty of talk about managing folk out of work rather than talk about training, assistance and support for said employee which I would assume is managing tbh- Yes i have sacked folk for ability reasons but all failed the probation rather than ones who had been there for years. Not one mention of the peter principle though.
As for rights I would point out that none of them were given by employers, not health and safety, equal pay, minimum wage, time directives, holiday pay, sick pay ……the dark satanic mines [ or sweat shops of the far east currently]is how an employer would treat you if they still could.
Unions will never have had their day though the role they need to perform in the workplace will change

I think it best to assume that the OP has given a mostly factual account. if they have lied, or their personal bias has blinded to certain aspects, then the efficacy of any given advice will be diluted or neutralised. Thus they are the only one to suffer.

but to argue with advice (given on the basis of the op being true) based on the possibility of it not being true serves less than no purpose.

but to argue with advice (given on the basis of the op being true) based on the possibility of it not being true serves less than no purpose.

+1

I admit to having read OPs previously and not believed them. In such cases I have thought it best not to bother contributing.

Employers always hold the upperhand as it is after all their ball [ bit like mods] so unions certainly help as it gives a formal and “neutral” service to speak up on your behalf rather thn ahave an individual have to do it alone and look like they are the problem as no one else complains.

Are you mad? Employment law is so heavily weighted in favour of the employee!

Are you mad?

Mad?Mad?
I am livid 🙄

employers can get rid of any employee via a restructure if they chose and making roles redundant]
They can manage out employess – can you manage out an employer?
Employers can force through changes in the contract if they so wish
Ultimately they can even sack everyone and re hire them on worse terms – though that is infrequently done
Employers can move the factory to Spain or 150 miles away
Employers can stop trading if they want
Employees face great difficulty in withdrawing their labour
Employees get some holiday , some sick pay and you cannot discriminate due to gender etc its not much really and the fact remains it is the companies ball so they will always have the most power

What exactly are these great powers that employees have over employers that makes you question my sanity?

What exactly are these great powers that employees have over employers that makes you question my sanity?

Well, can you imagine they actually have a right to ask for flexible working hours. And the employer has to actually consider the request. Before telling them to **** off.

If every valuable employee voted with their feet when they were being put upon and proved how easy it was for a decent person to move jobs then bad management and companies treating people badly would soon become a thing of the past. Do you think I can achieve my targets without a happy and motivated work force? Nope. I, the manager, need you more than you need me. But, I’ve got stuff to do too, and is my time better spent managing flex time, compassionate leave and time monitoring from some one under performing, or maybe hiring that fresh new face a couple of years out of uni who wants to go places?

I was treated poorly 5 years into my career after being passed up for promotion due to a disagreement with a senior manager, I got bitter about it and hung around for a couple of years still being passed over. Till finally I got a promotion in another dept, only to find said manager had put in a bad word for me there to. So, I voted with my feet, got the job I deserved with a much better firm and a nice pay rise. Don’t play the victim. For good people jobs are out there don’t take any crap. After my experience I thought a union would have bee the answer, I now work in a company with a union, I have observed what they have achieved over the last 5 years and have come to the conclusion other than adding delay to everything they get involved with no decision has every gone differently to how it would have done without the union. They no longer serve a purpose in my opinion.

I agree with much of what Junkyard says, despite his verbosity and TJesque style, but the establishment of a rigid rule-bound system has its downside.

I can’t discuss details, but employees can play that rigid system like binners plays a banjo, hence my scepticism.

So, I voted with my feet, got the job I deserved with a much better firm and a nice pay rise.

If unions were stronger you might even be earning more. 🙂

Junkyard ans DT 78 +loads 😆
Union was no help to my dad many years ago when they were at their peak
Union was no good when MrsT was having issues and are still faceless and useless now that she is in charge of 20 odd staff.
My union is proving just as bad, my works convened is so p…..d off he is taking advantage of the company ver scheme!

In the current manufacturing slump if we were to take any form of industrial action(being talked about)then it is likely the doors will be shut and production moved to China! Pep talks tomorrow apparently 😯

I agree with much of what Junkyard says, despite his verbosity and TJesque style, but the establishment of a rigid rule-bound system has its downside.

That wasn’t quite my reading of what JY’s asking for. He seems to be proposing that an employer returns the flexibility which he expects from his employee.

EDIT: You stated my view in so many fewer words than me

I am not made for twitter am I 😉

but the establishment of a rigid rule-bound system has its downside.

Of course it has the best workplaces have flexibility in both directions as sometimes we all have to work late to get things done and sometime life gets in the way of work.
Swings and roundabouts…the rules are just the last resort when the flexibility is in one direction or unfairly applied by either side.
For example we had flexible working and it meant that everyone left early on a friday so there was no cover. Management used the contract and terms to create a rota for business reasons. I was amazed how many people formally objected to being asked to work on one friday every month especially as redundancy was on the cards.
Management became quite inflexible about this and I dont blame them tbh as they needed cover and this was the only way.

despite his verbosity and TJesque style

guilty as charged not really helped my case has it 😳

guilty as charged not really helped my case has it

I disagree. I like people with passion even if I don’t agree with them, and TJ was a passionate arguer, so carry on fella!

JY….MrsT has the very same issue. She told her staff to sort it themselves or she would sort it for them 👿 There is still the odd individual who has a moan only to be reminded of the options!