So in theory we should all be using public transport over cars wherever practical, with an aim to minimise the environmental impact and reduce congestion in cities.

But one of the biggest stumbling blocks, as expressed on other threads, is the price. Who wants to pay more for a mode of transport that is less convenient and comfortable than a car?

So what if all public transport was made free*?

Would people still prefer to drive into town if they could get the bus/tram/train for free? Would they still drive to work?

* Obviously by "free" I actually mean free at the point of usage, but run by a state-owned transport authority that is subsidised by funds from general taxation.

If it were free I'd still drive as the distance from stations to my destinations are comparatively large and if it became free it would be vastly overcrowded. I'll always own a car (my hobbies are not performed in or near places with public transport) so until I stop doing my hobbies I've no need to scrap the car, so the running costs don't fall into question.

From my current location- a bus would require getting up very early and paying 4 quid for the return trip, taking around half an hour each way, plus a half hour walk at the work-end of the journey. If I drive, at the worst possible time in the worst possible weather it costs me £2 in diesel plus 50p/day in parking. Even commuting daily commuting only forms about 20% of my annual car usage, the rest is driving to cycling and kitesurfing spots and visiting friends and family who live hundreds of miles away.

Public transport works within cities and towns, it rarely makes sense between them unless the distances are very large and tickets booked WAY in advance.

I would use it. When I was in Hong Kong quite a few years back the tram was 10p regardless of distance, and pretty much everyone used it.

However, if every employee had to provide changing/shower facilities I think that, that would make more of an impact.

that's a great idea GrahamS.

Wouldn't work for me. No public transport goes within 2 miles of my workplace, and it's only 7 miles (25 mins cycling, 10 mins on scooter) anyway.
Most other journeys we make are long ones taking lots of stuff with us (Bikes, camping ger etc) so that's a non starter. Most short journeys we cycle or walk unless we need to carry something large

Within cities – maybe

Between cities – no way

I'd use public transport if it was free…I was out for a walk with my daughter on my back (12 months at the time) and went to the next village – about a 2 mile walk…managed to forget something or other and ended up jumping on the bus back as it was a 3 minute bus journey or a 30 minute walk…£2.80 to go 2 bus stops!!!

I don't tend to use public transport mainly as I hvae a car and my travelling times make public transport less convenient i.e. I can't get to where I want to be at the time I need to if I rely on public transport. I don't mind paying for public transport but it has to be convenient for me…

where i currently live, the nearest bus is 20mins walk, down a muddy unlit lane, half hourly service but last bus is at 6pm. hourly on sundays.

If i tried to get to work which would be possible (it would take 2 hours-ish), it simply wouldn't work to get home as the last bus would leave before i could get to it.

I only work 13 miles from home… So not a huge distance. Although this may be changing to being 150 miles for a few months, this wouldn't work either as although there is a train line to Shotton, too many changes and i have to be there by 9am so first train would never get me there.

Car or cycle it is

In the old peoples republic of south yorkshire bus use was extremely high when it cost buttons to use. Perhaps not free but nominal cost – if only they were still nationalised.

To clarify: the aim would not to be to eliminate all car usage. Clearly there are journeys that would still be best made by car. The aim would be to remove one of the obstacles to public transport (relative cost) to encourage its use where possible.

Also I would expect that the capacity and quality if the transport would increase as they would have steady investment from government and would only be required to run at cost.

i would use it all the time.

just been for a weekend in paris, tube and train systems are clean, efficient, not over crowded and cheap.

ill up you proposal one graham.

Free (or very cheap) AND all trains have a carrige for cyclists

easy roll on roll off, big doors and easy securing of bikes.

In the revised conditions where capacity were increased and costs were significantly lower than using a car, and it didnt add more than 25% onto my journey time – yes I'd use it.

Buses are already free for oldies, and all transport in London is. It has massively increased bus use, although it costs a lot to run, what with having to pay all the private companies for all those bus tickets.

One of our local buses in particular is pretty much full of old people nowadays at the weekends – it goes across the Peak District, they all catch it to go walking / go to Chatsworth!

Joe

I travel to work on the bus which is both convienient and cost effective (I guess I'm lucky). The number of over 60s who use the service (is it only in Scotland that they travel for free?) might suggest there would be a significant uptake if the cost was reduced/removed.

It's one of those virtuous circle situations.
One you get lots of people using the system, it becomes worthwhile to add more routes and stops.
CK's objections were partly based around costs – why would it be necessary to book inadvance if rail fares were cheap? Why should a cheap system be overcrowded – all it needs is a more frequent service?

The aim would be to remove one of the obstacles to public transport (relative cost) to encourage its use where possible.

Could you remove the other obstacles too? e.g.:

smelly people
ugly people
rude bus drivers
chewing gum

smelly people: we wouldnt let you on in the first place?
ugly people: as above

😉

(JOKING!!)

Has anyone ever witnessed a bus driver smiling?

Or been on a bus in a city centre that doesn't have a collection of 'yooves' smoking skunk and playing shite R&B through tinny mobile phone speakers?

Has anyone ever witnessed a bus driver smiling?

maybe they're all roadies? 😉

Moses – I was simply pointing out that in general in-city public transport is fine but inter-city it's only a viable alternative if it's cheaper than the car. My point was that when its booked WAY in advance it becomes cheap enough for the benefits to outweigh the comfort, speed, convenience etc of the car. Whereas in cities its often better to go by public transport, if you dont mind the hoards of unwashed, ill, vomiting (and more) people and seating so cramped you can't fit. Or the people smoking when they shouldnt but the bus driver is too scared of them to say anything, or the drunks trying to drag anyone into a fight…

In an ideal world yes public transport would be great, but in an ideal world the public transport would be very local to your start and end destination, small and frequent enough that it didnt get overcrowded and was kept clean and comfy, maybe with your own choice of music… oh no, thats a car again…

Has anyone ever witnessed a bus driver smiling?

We have two types of buses in Nottingham – Trent Barton = smiley drivers, clean buses, give change. NCT = dirty buses, no change, grumpy drivers who are hidden behind a sheet of bulletproof glass.

To be fair to NCT, Trent Barton cherry pick the routes, so they only go to nice places, whereas NCT which is run by the council, they have to go to the dodgy guns and drugs estates, and have had real problems with random people attacking their drivers etc. But they are horrible buses to take.

Joe

While we're at it I see no reason why this scheme couldn't do inter-city travel as well. Free trains for all?

After all according to The Times, we're currently paying out over £800 million in subsidies to private train companies so they can keep their shareholders happy.

*notes down Olly's comments for use later*

Has anyone ever witnessed a bus driver smiling?

Yep. It was in Enschede in the Netherlands.

Ok lets face it, train cost me 60 something euro a month. Theoretically I should link my door to the lab door in 60 minutes. So now here is the catch.

Train is always late. They usually stink of beer/urine/sick or something else very bad. You have to put up with rude, smelly, noisy and drunk people. Most of the time there is an idiot interrupting my reading to ask me a silly question about my bike or my helmet (at this point I shall not point the amount of abuse/bullying I get for daring to ride a bike and taking it with me in the train). If I wasn't working in academic I would have had to give up train as simple as that (or I could just keep on going until I get fired).

So yes it's much cheaper than the car or the motorcyle. Yes I can read a book inside. But sometimes I just wonder if it's really worth it.

To get people use more the train you need train where people are not crowded (I know Tj will come along telling me that I am a snob because I wont sit/stand close by someone with the stench of alcohol), that are clean and run on time. That would be a start. Much more efficient than lowering the prices.

Oh and staff that actually give a toss about customers.

I feel I should point out to a couple of people on this thread that the expense of driving doesn't start and end at fuel costs or parking charges. And I've been in quite a few cars that are way filthier than any form of public transport. At least the coach doesn't have oily streaks all over the upholstery from people cramming bikes into it. 🙂

I can't imagine that I would use public transport that much even if it was free, as I just like cycling. However, if I had to rock up to work looking smart instead of getting changed there, or if I was more unwilling to brave the occasional rubbish weather we get in the UK, then I'd definitely use public transport. The few times I've driven into work, I've been stunned by the amount of time you spend sitting stationary in queues of traffic, and been tempted to join the naughty people nipping into the bus lanes.

been tempted to join the naughty people nipping into the bus lanes.

So you actually don't use the bus lane…
You need a driving formation in France 😉

I feel I should point out to a couple of people on this thread that the expense of driving doesn't start and end at fuel costs or parking charges.

There's no need to point it out to me, if you were; I've done the calcs time after time on both my cars. Bear in mind that I'd have the car anyway and commuting takes up a very small % of my car use, any extras are neither here nor there. But all this was covered in the other thread.

There's no need to point it out to me

Yeah but by saying "it costs £2.50 to drive somewhere" you're presenting that information in a slightly misleading way.

I'd have the car anyway

There's the rub… private vehicle ownership used to be much smaller in the UK, people just structured their lives differently as a result. Did they have a lower standard of living, or do fewer outdoor activities? 😕

Could you remove the other obstacles too? e.g.:

smelly people
ugly people
rude bus drivers
chewing gum

To be honest I hadn't really considered ethnic cleansing as part of my bright new transport future. 😯
But I'm sure something could be done about the chewing gum.

That sounds wonderful Graham. I'm really excited about oil running out, and cars becoming less usable. I feel that all the benefits of public transport far outweigh the negatives. I will never have a car. I think that private vehicle ownership is partly what destroys a real sense of community, and a scheme like the one you suggest wound help engender that again.

I'm really excited about oil running out, and cars becoming less usable

have you been waiting long?

i'd use pubic transport before i'd use public transport

So every individual will be equally and proportionally taxed irrespective of their current vehicle usage I assume? It would never work – why the hell should I (family all live within 5 miles, work is 2 miles from my home) pay for other users to travel further and more regularly?

I think that private vehicle ownership is partly what destroys a real sense of community, and a scheme like the one you suggest wound help engender that again.

By isolating people that don't live near a convenient public transport route?

why the hell should I…

Same apparent reason as any tax: for the greater good.
Do you use the NHS regularly? Housing Benefit? Social Services? etc etc

Plus you're paying a part of these proposed costs already as tax-funded subsidies to private, profit-making transport companies.

PC- yes.
Because private vehicles are so common, there are far fewer public transport routes, so those without cars are much more isolated.

And people talk to each other(still) at bus-stops, in buses, in trains. (Except in London) So yes, they destroy social cohesion.

Also, because there are far fewer people around the streets at night, those that are there are more likely to suffer mugging or be afraid to go out. So again, private vehicles are a public ill.

😕

Same apparent reason as any tax: for the greater good.

So you think there should be a blanket tax on all individuals to get around the country irrespective of whether they actually use public transport? It is a very different proposition to healthcare where no individual could ever know if and when they require help. Same goes for housing benefit and social services etc. Transport is an individual choice. Good health or financial status not (directly) necessarily so…

Mad idea that could never work here.

joemarshall – Have you lived in Nottingham long?

Even the 'horrible' NCT buses (though the 69, 70 etc that I take to the Nottingham Rd are nothing like the ones you describe) are a massive improvement over the complete lack of decent public transport Nottingham used to suffer under.

It wasn't too long ago that buses up the Nottingham Rd on a Sunday ran about once an hour.

BTW, Trent Barton don't cherry pick the routes BTW, their routes are Notts County Council routes whereas NCT cover Nottingham City Council routes. This is the reason Trent Barton buses have limited pick-up/drop-off within the city.

Why not go one step further and have working co-operatives. We all get paid the same and live in identical houses and eat the same food, provided and paid for by the state.

We are all equal.

But some are more equal than others.

It is a very different proposition to healthcare where no individual could ever know if and when they require help.

Ok a bit of a low blow here (sorry mate), but why everyone should subdivise on the NHS service that provides for couple that can't have children the same way? After all some dont want children and some can conceive children in the most natural manner…

A bit of food for thoughts.