Dear Hope
I hope business is good for you. We, like hundreds of other smaller cycle shops really like your products, and really like recommending them to our customers. We probably don’t sell as much as even a small online retailer, but we do convert new customers to your products everyday. It could be argued that a small part of the success of Hope has been due to 100's of smaller bike shops liking and recommending your products over the years.
It’s therefore very troubling that it’s possible to buy a set of you really good hope hoops at Halfords, at a price which is LESS than we pay you for the same product. When I’ve spoken to your representatives at trade events, we have often asked about your discounting policy, and have been told that you offer the same price to all your customers, either your standard trade price, or a 5% discount for larger customers (of which we are one). It is hard for me to believe this when I see a number of large online retailers discounting your product, and now a national chain selling at what would appear to be less than cost price.
It’s been often argued on this forum, that smaller bike shops need to ‘up their game’, or do something different to compete, however I ask how much can we up our game, and do something different when the playing field is quite so steeply sloped?
I also ask you as a manufacturer whether supplying to businesses whose model is to be cheaper (not better, not with great service, just cheaper) is really sustainable for you. Once the local bike shop has ceased to exist (like the local electrical store, or many local butchers etc etc) who will recommend your products to your end users? Who will service the products of those who can’t or won’t service their own? Yes you can pay for advertising, but will that be as effective? Once the bicycle market in the UK is controlled by an oligopoly of Halfords, Evans, CRC and Wiggle what will you do when they decide that your products don’t offer the same margin as imported products from the far east and no longer stock your products? I ask you these questions now, as if you continue to support businesses who’s competitive edge is to be cheaper you may find that you have done a deal with the devil in a few short years time.
I am aware that I am singling out a relatively small company from the myriad of companies who supply the UK bicycle trade, my arguments apply equally to most other suppliers. I am not expecting a reply from you to this letter, but have chosen to share it on a public forum as I feel it may have more impact on both you and other suppliers than another small bike shop owner complaining to you at a trade show.
Keep making those great products!
Maybe Halfords are selling them at a loss. Heard of a loss leader? Halfords are trying to establish themselves as a serious bike retailer at the moment......
Hope are brilliant. Phoned them up today, ordered some stuff, I wasn't sure exactly what I needed for these bikes so the person on the phone talked be through what was needed. Now they'll custom-build the brakes I need and get them to me in a day or so.
They've also, in the past, been happy to custom-cut brake rotors for me and other unusual things.
Have you considered that maybe it's not Hope discounting, it's Halfords making a loss on them?
I'd say it's definitely Halfords trying to get traction in the "proper" mountain bike market
Wow! They are cheap aren't they. Cheers for the heads up 😉
Could it be that they are just having a clear out and liquidating stock? Or trying to make their mark in the market for quality gear, as they have a bit of a reputation for selling lower end stuff at the momemt?
As has been said. Halfords are trying to become a big player in the cycle industry at the moment so I would assume they'll be using them as a popular product and a loss leader to get people into the stores to demonstrate they have good offers and improved customer service. It sounds to me like Hope are being very fair in explaining their pricing and Halfords will be taking a short term hit on them.
Even if it is Halfords making a loss, that doesn't help the small bike shops.
I'm aware it may be a loss leader, I'm also aware that companies can choose to work with partners that share their values and support their products, or they can choose to work with companies who don't.
Ben, I agree Hope are brilliant, they offer great products and great support and we would like to continue to work with them for many years to come, that is my point, I feel that by selling their products to the lowest bidder they are devaluing their product and their brand. They may see this differently, that is their choice.
I'm purely expressing my point of view, how can we, and 100's of other smaller shops continue to support their products when the stock on our shelves is now worth less than we paid for it due to a business that Hope have chosen to supply.
I am not expecting a reply from you to this letter
Try sending it to Hope?
Even if it is Halfords making a loss, that doesn't help the small bike shops.
Small bike shops need to help themselves. Stamping feet and complaining that it's not fair won't work.
Edit: Stock on the shelves is worth what you can sell it for. So you get on well with Hope, and know the product inside out? That's where you have the edge over Halfords, use that and the price difference won't matter.
Or go to Halfords and buy stock from them. I got lots of Tubus racks cheap after someone flagged up an Evans special offer on here, now happily selling them at full retail price 😉
gearfreak - if it makes you feel any better I wont be buying any Hope stuff from Halfords, as I dont really like Hope stuff 😉
Are we guessing its a loss leader? If it is Im sure Hope will confirm 😐
With the greatest respect to Halfords & their efforts, unless there is a serious upping of said game, my local store (Lichfield) really wouldnt be my first port of call for serious MTB kit, or in fact anything cycling related. And this is all down to the staff.
Small bike shops need to help themselves. Stamping feet and complaining that it's not fair won't work.
Neither will advertising that a multi outlet competitor is cheaper 😆
Hope ? dont they use alloy freehub bodies that get chewed up by the cassettes ?
Looks to me like Halfords buying in bulk before the RRP & Trade prices went up at the start of the month, and now selling stuff off at a big discount off the new, higher RRP. They're probably not making a loss, but they won't be making much profit on them either. But they'll sell loads of them, so they don't need to make a huge margin.
It's good business on Halfords' part, but it's also a bit unethical as it'll put more strain on the small dealers who can actually give good customer service. It's not good for Hope in the long run, as it's pissing off the people who actually support their customers.
Unfortunately that's the way of the world. Manufacturers want to sell what they make. Suppliers want to make a profit on what they sell. Customers want to get the best price possible. Large national chain shops and internet dealers make it too easy for customers to forget about service.
is this just a really clever PSA, by Halfords?
Isn't it just a clearout price? Are Hope supposed to be bringing out a new version of the freehub shortly with better engagement?
Valid points made still, but perhaps the wrong example to use.
The price of Hope Hoops doesn't normally dip under £270 or £280 - and then sometimes from small retailers - so maybe Hope are telling the truth on their pricing?
Hope generally are great, but their quality has slipped recently given the amount of trouble I and others have been having with their bearings \ oversize hub shells. Yes it was sorted out, but it should not have been an issue in the first place.
I really hope it was a glitch and is not the start of their demise in order to go for quantity over quality
Wiggle and Halfords were both deals on these circa £270 when I bought my flow exs yet I chose to get them from Leisure lakes in Wolverhampton because I like to spend as much as possible in any good bike shop where possible to keep it open for the days when I just fancy looking at new bikes.
The guys in store reserved a set which I collected that day they also let me chose the axle converters I needed and charged me their online price which was £20 lower without me asking. While I was there I bought a few bits I wouldn't have done online.
I think what i'm trying to say as long as your shop is good enough and service is good what they're selling for online is worthless as people will always go to a bike shop. The big Halfords order will probably have boosted Hope considerably in hard times which can only mean more quality products for us for longer.
I wonder if gearfreak can tell the difference between a front and back wheel. [url= http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_952075_langId_-1_categoryId_242554 ]Halfords don't seem to be able to[/url], perhaps this is the service/support edge that a LBS can promote 😉
PS - Shame they did not mix up the prices as well as the description 🙁
Dammit, they're sold out
While i totally get the support your lbs sentiment and i can understand gearfreaks annoyance, as a consumer a lot of it is to do with how far you can stretch your (fairly empty in these times) disposable income wallet.
Last time i bought a complete bike, i really wanted to use a localish bike shop. As well as advising me to get the wrong size frame (another story but interestingly they didnt have the right size in stock !!) for a cash payment they would give me £70 worth of accessories free.
5 minutes on google found me the same bike (still in the wrong size but i digress) for £400 less!!! Thats some hope hoops, new tyres and some other stuff as well for the same cost. As a consumer i cant afford to turn that down!
Isn't it just a clearout price? Are Hope supposed to be bringing out a new version of the freehub shortly with better engagement?
I thought this. Also it was quite limited. I think just Flow and Crest and a few Mavic rims with normal Pro2 Evo hubs (so no fancy SP options or anything like that, unless I missed it.) And it was all sold out pretty quickly.
If it was just 10 or 20 quid, I'd have gone to my LBS... but can't really ignore a third off!
The other thing is, what Halfords are advertising is probably a "web only" price. I'll bet if you walked into the store and ordered them, they'd be a hell of a lot more than Hope's RRP...
Don't forget, this is the same company that's offering a 5-litre drum of Muc-Off for £13 online - the in-store price is £26.99, more or less Muc-Off's RRP of £27.00 (Wiggle's price is £21.99 by comparison).
They sold out of flows straight away. It's just good marketing having driven loads of web traffic their way for the cost of a few discounted wheels.
As above, Halfords are working hard to build a name for themselves. I recently ordered a cheap and cheerful cycle carrier for £26 on the web, for collection at a store. I got to the store and they told me the order had been cancelled as there was no stock but since I'd come to store and found out they gave me a ~£60 carrier (reduced from £100) for £26.
The store manager told me they're trying hard to build the brand, and that anything Bike Hut was fair game for discounts/promotions/etc.
I bought something in store recently (bike lock) and asked for the web price, the guy on the till went online, ordered it for me, printed off the collection page thing, then rang it up at the web price.The other thing is, what Halfords are advertising is probably a "web only" price. I'll bet if you walked into the store and ordered them, they'd be a hell of a lot more than Hope's RRP...
Whatever they're doing they're doing it right. I've used Halfords more in the last year than I did in the last 30.
I'm still slightly dreading having to go in and pick up my wheels. Last visit was a couple of months ago t pick up a headset bung I'd ordered online. Ended up being a thirty minute ordeal. Took half of that time for them to appease an irate customer in front of me (though to be fair, he was being a total dick) then the other half to find the item I'd ordered (was on the floor behind the counter under a pile of paperwork.)
(was on the floor behind the counter under a pile of paperwork.)
They don't seem to have worked out the final part of the collect in store process. In my local store at any rate. I have had parcels retrieved from the front desk in the car bit, and next time it was upstairs in the bikehut. Another time, the poor lad serving me ended up looking for a shoebox for 30mins and it ended up being in the tea room.
They are moving in the right direction, though. Just need to be less half arsed in the final third.
They are moving in the right direction, though. Just need to be less half arsed in the final third.
Is weird. If it's not bike related then it's always from a specific desk at the back of the store... no problems. If it's a bike part it seems it could be anywhere!
Looked like clearing stock to me ready for the new hubs and rim options. Got me a well priced wheel and when i bend it it will go to my lbs for repair so not all doom and gloom for the lbs.
Have you written to SRAM,Shimano, etc etc etc who sell to 'manufacturers' who massivly over order and then sell the items O.E as well? 😕
**** - id have bought the 26" flows at that price 🙁
Many years ago we sold craft stuff. Then our companies started selling to a craft barn type outlet.
We couldn't compete so diversified.
Craft barn has since gone tits up. Suppliers can't supply to the small shops as they either closed or like us changed.
Now Clintons Cards are getting quite aggressive targeting the independent card market.
The card companies seem quite shocked when we drop them if they supply Clintons.
We can only survive by offering an alternative to the identi town centre stuff.
When Clintons decide that they want to focus again on selling crap the companies that took the quick buck will be stuffed as well.
bencooper - Member
Or go to Halfords and buy stock from them. I got lots of Tubus racks cheap after someone flagged up an Evans special offer on here, now happily selling them at full retail price
I'll give you £20 for one.
Have seen it a few times from 'inside the fence' with companies selling at below the price I know we supplied them with - often its a cockup, a standard price applied across the board on a brand or product that tips it under the margin on that product - sometimes it was a genuine 'liquidate the stock because we need money and its a quarter day next week' and even less often it seemed to be a loss leader.
Consumers are being ripped off by companies who fix prices with their retailers and won't allow discounts.
which is illegal nick, so feel free to report anyone that's doing it
It may be illegal, it is however widespread!
Just had a look on the Halfords website and they seem to stock pretty much every Hope product, and they all look cheaper than the majority other retailers :/
why don't all the LBS bike shops club together and order the entire production run of wheels for the year
surely they would get a massive qty discount
We have been told by our area manager that if a customer wants a 'web exclusive' deal in store and we can get the stuff, do it as we won't take the hit (head office will).
It's disgusting, probably the same people who buy supermarket fuel instead of the local village pumps!
I'd be too embarassed to go into halfords to buy cycling gear. Id rather go to tesco.
Tough situation to be in Steve, no easy answers and no doubt very frustrating.
As a LBS (general question to anyone involved with a LBS) where is most of the money made? I would imagine the workshop or low end complete bikes account for the most income but it would be interesting to know where the financial strengths of a LBS lie...
Interesting letter and valid POV, unfortunately retail changing very quickly. I currently work for 3rd largest chain store bike retailer in UK, even we cannot compete with grey import on-line retailer's on shimano, SRAM,etc. We are still buying from UK distributors, trade pricing typically 10% above grey sale pricing on internet.
It's a problem but until manufacturers stop selling low priced bulk stock to anyone cash rich...it ain't going away
Best solution for lbs is selling 'protected' brands that don't dump stock into aftermarket, bike service, bikefit, shop rides, etc. Anything internet cannot offer!
Best solution for lbs is selling 'protected' brands that don't dump stock into aftermarket
Fairly few and far between though atm, good policy but at the same time unless they're really good products that warrant the extra cost customers will buy the cheaper option
Very valid points. Big challenge for bike biz in the long term. If industry expects or cares for lbs to survive then dual channel approach is unsustainable.
i feel that the lbs is on very thin ice ,we are becoming a free advice /fitting centre ,none of which pay bills .
bottom end has gone the way of sports direct and supermarkets,mid range/higher end is now where shops are targeting.
workshops are sometimes profitable and i'm starting to see some charge for work that was'nt required(bit like my plumber/car repair centres) and try and milk every penny out of every job.
The big shops are paying less ,even when many claim not ,seen it with my own eyes,biggest problem is that it's a world wide market and when taxes/prices vary country to country many retailers will lose out.
That was kind of why I wondered where the money is being made in a LBS. If a LBS can't compete in various areas then where is it likely to focus in the future to survive?
Sounds like high end and workshop is the way forwards but then the market is small. Comparisons to a local butcher dying out aren't quite the same as there isn't really a mass market replacement for workshop repairs for example. Would a future LBS just be a bike repair shop for example?
They're selling them off cheap because they are 26ers 🙂
Its a stock clearance, Halfords aren't dealing with Hope any more in the future so everything is going. There was a memo that went around the stores last week detailing that there was a general unsatisfied feedback from customers who had waited excessive waiting times for products from Hope, despite the fact if you ring Hope direct they normally send the item next day or same day. Ordering through the store was taking 2-3 weeks for parts...
Just a bit of blurb from my store.
low end complete bikes account for the most income but it would be interesting to know where the financial strengths of a LBS lie...
Putting one together probably costs more in workshop/labour time than any profit made.Especially if you have service and repair work waiting where you profit from fitting new parts
There are a lot of people that have made a fantastic living over the past 15 - 20 year through some very strong economic times...these people don't like change or their rich picking being challenged by businesses that have clearly got a stronger business model that works, I'm not just talking bike shops but businesses across the board, smaller bike shops and the like should lower their margins and stop being greedy, they along with a generation had it too good for too long!
i don't think most shop's will survive on a workshop only basis unless you charge top dollar ,i always felt that repairs were a service and that it sold us a few parts and that new bike sales were what payed the bill's ,slowly everything has been eroded away ,not that many years ago 100+ bikes were sold to the insurance customers,last year zero as wheelies now get most of that market,even top end brands are now purchased abroad ,but when things go wrong the same customer expects us to replace there frame for free because we are a dealer for that brand,one way or another sevices cost money ...do you work for free?
like many who work in retail in this trade most have a good relationship with rep's /suppliers,hence shall we say sometimes customer will get what you would call an extended warranty on certain items(i recently got a frame swopped that was a number of years out of warranty as a good will gesture)or sell an item at cost if you fell off and broke it after a few weeks the difference is that your lbs needs repeat customers in a small town to survive,many online think that if they lose one there's plenty more out there.
nwill1 - Member
There are a lot of people that have made a fantastic living over the past 15 - 20 year through some very strong economic times...these people don't like change or their rich picking being challenged by businesses that have clearly got a stronger business model that works, I'm not just talking bike shops but businesses across the board, smaller bike shops and the like should lower their margins and stop being greedy, they along with a generation had it too good for too long!
you sound just like someone who steels artists music & blames the record companies 🙂
when i need some new Hope hoops i'll check out Halfords, had no idea 😀
Halfords probably make 0-5% margin, LBS' 15-30% margin on hope hoops i'm guessing? Loss leader to get traction.
Adore Hope, customer service is supurb too, replies to emails at 10pm and 530am 😯
jolmes - Member
Its a stock clearance, Halfords aren't dealing with Hope any more in the future so everything is going. There was a memo that went around the stores last week detailing that there was a general unsatisfied feedback from customers who had waited excessive waiting times for products from Hope, despite the fact if you ring Hope direct they normally send the item next day or same day. Ordering through the store was taking 2-3 weeks for parts...Just a bit of blurb from my store.
Have you any decent UST hope hoops in stock?
Have you any decent UST hope hoops in stock?
Look on the site mate, although in all fairness, i ordered an IBR that was in stock, got a call off head office that said it wasnt, took 3 weeks to arrive...same with some f20 pedals, was fuming as I was told 3 days, the item was in stock etc etc and I bloody work there! Not only customers that get pissy, the staff do too :p
Bike shops can't buy suspension forks as cheaply as on-line stores are jobbing them out for . How can that be right ?
timc - I've never downloaded music let alone stolen it, I still buy CD's!
I'm just of a generation where I've worked hard for everything I've got not just got lucky cause there's so much money kicking about.
wow what a price! are the flows any good though? i'm tempted!
or this ZTR crest looks decent
I'll give you £20 for one.
😆
I don't know where bike shops will go. Quite a few will just go bust - like the small record shops and the small bookstores, they'll lose out to online retailers and big chains. Others will do well with niche things, or with good workshop service, or by selling online.
Business is harsh. There's always going to be someone selling something cheaper than the next person. The reasons for this can be counteless.
Shifting dead stock, Sourced from outside normal avenues, OE products, the list goes on.
And it's wrong to compare a small independents to a major chain. The business models are completely different. You dont see your local grocer competing with Asda on price yet they still trade and make a successful business, why? because they are 'there' on the highstreet, convenient, sell items that you want. There's a reason they are called Convenient Stores!
The Halfords and the Asda's rely on selling 1000's of items with very little profit whereas the small stores sell fewer items with higher profit margins.
Anyone who trys to run a small independent with the same strategies as a huge chain is destined for failure.
People lose touch of the 'normal consumers' that are out there. The actual number of shoppers that trawl the internet for the cheapest prices and are fluent in 'chainreaction this' and 'wiggle that' are actually in the minority.
The majority of people who ride just want to buy decent products from their local store that they trust and take advice from the chap that's served them for the last 5 years, the sales guy who knows their bike inside out. A good small local store, regardless of what part of the retail sector they're from will stand out for all the right reasons if it's run right.
Biketreks in Ambleside is a perfect example of this. Service and knowledge is in abundance and this draws in customers from far wide. Their customers are REAL customers that dont live online with weary eyes searching for rock bottom prices. They shop their for the RIGHT reasons.
As much as the internet is great for business it's also killing it, but we (us internet geeks) are as much to blame in the constant drive to buy things as cheap as possible. And if you're one of those people who goes into your local shop and asks for something to be price matched then you should hang your head in shame!
Just my views anyway.
Rant over 🙂
Goodnight
The "Don't drop it below" price is not a bad thing really. For every product you sell you need to add in overhead etc. and put a little something aside for dealing with any issues. There is a minimum price for American Classic wheelsets over here in Oz the one of the LBS's did some for less, now all the others if they want to compete are selling at margins that are not unsustainable - most customers expect that when they buy some wheels magically the cassette & rotors get swapped and the brakes reset on their bike for free too.
Another LBS went after a bike sale on a bike that had been out for 1 week (not a brand that was tied into any particular shop) they quoted a price that was $20 above trade just to get a sale, that won't even cover taking it out of the box let alone the fact that this one comes as parts not just stick the bars and wheels on.
The LBS can't win the race to the bottom, I'm happy if brands will work with good local dealers with some integrity. As it sounds like Halfords are getting rid of hope it will be a one off.
trouble is people come in for the excellent advice ,touch it ,sit on it,decide what they want then buy online to save £20.00.
loyalty to the bloke down the road who helped when they were in the shit has gone and i can't be the only one who questions why i go the extra mile to fight for a customer when something goes wrong.
A letter from Hope...
You may have noticed that Halfords are currently offering massive discounts on our products and I wanted to fill you all in on the issues surrounding this. As you may or may not know, we have dealt with Halfords on a small scale for around 20 years. They never really stocked any product and simply offered parts on a sold order basis, however with their online changes they began to offer more products.
In October they asked us for better discounts on our full range of products. We stated that we could only continue to offer them the same prices as we give all our other dealers. They informed us that they would not deal with us unless we offered a discount. Our answer – OK we’ll stop dealing with you then. So the knock on effect of this is that they are “liquidating” their leftover stock at much discounted prices. Their stock holding was quite small so this discounting will be over very shortly.
I also wanted to assure you that we understand how important our IBD network is to Hopes future and that we will continue to fully support you all.
A letter from Hope...You may have noticed that Halfords are currently offering massive discounts on our products and I wanted to fill you all in on the issues surrounding this. As you may or may not know, we have dealt with Halfords on a small scale for around 20 years. They never really stocked any product and simply offered parts on a sold order basis, however with their online changes they began to offer more products.
In October they asked us for better discounts on our full range of products. We stated that we could only continue to offer them the same prices as we give all our other dealers. They informed us that they would not deal with us unless we offered a discount. Our answer – OK we’ll stop dealing with you then. So the knock on effect of this is that they are “liquidating” their leftover stock at much discounted prices. Their stock holding was quite small so this discounting will be over very shortly.
I also wanted to assure you that we understand how important our IBD network is to Hopes future and that we will continue to fully support you all.
In that case, good on Hope. It's good to see someone sticking up for themselves against the big retailers. If only more manufacturers would do this as well.
You beat me to it Simon. Good on you Hope! 😀
to put a positive spin on this, I ordered some wheels through my work which have a trade account after the new price list was published (and supposed to be in place) and hope still charged the company the old price...
Good on you Hope!
This.
Stories about a long lead time from Hope would seem to be a red herring; usually delivered within days (if not next day) to the LBSs I use. Mind you, I'm not [i]that[/i] far from Barnoldswick.
Well done to them! A brave and correct decision, not giving in to the buying power/bullying of large companies and supporting their core values.
Well done Hope.
Halfords are trying to establish themselves as a serious bike retailer at the moment......
Again?
BikeHut 2.0?
I find the idea of 'ethics' in business somewhat confusing; isn't business all about maximising the return for your investment? So aren't Halfords' 'ethics' all about doing exactly that (and delivering the best possible dividends for their shareholders)? Whilst small independent bike shops (which FW Evans was once) might well offer a level of service the corporate giants don't/won't/can't, ultimately they still exist primarily to make as much profit as possible, no? So why should anyone demand Halfords be any different?
Good on Hope though I must say.
I like Hope even more now. A commendable position to take, though I suspect they know their market well enough to know it probably won't impact them much. If you want hope stuff then you'll seek it out. I'm still keeping my 200 quid Hope wheelset though 🙂
Edit... Suppose some of it is also protecting the value of your product. If you give halfords a discount they'll start taking a bigger market share, become a significant part of your business, then start demanding bigger discounts etc. Makes sound sense to sell through lbs and protect margins if you have a strong enough brand.
Google raceface and MEC.
Same Lbs/ supplier concerns as OP.. It wasn't long after that raceface shut their doors!
LBS need to get their act together like electrical shops use Euronics.
These posts about struggling bike shops appear on here very regularly. I always wonder how they'll survive when the current huge boom in cycling ends?
Within walking distance I have 6 decent-ish bike shops, not including Halfords. 9 or 10 shops within 30 minutes ride. Guess how many we had 20 years ago when I first started MTBing........ About the same. So locally at least the LBS doesn't seem to be dying as quickly as predicted.