theocb – Member

Why doesn’t that make sense?

Because you don’t compare 26 inch wheels and fat tyres with 650b wheels and thin tyres- you compare like with like. And the reasons for fitting a big tyre are not the same as the reasons for fitting a bigger wheel. The 2 are not the same at all.

I, a size 10 shoe, because I choose to wear chunky boots and trainers now know what it is to be a size 12 and feel the pavement come alive as my huge clown boots bridge the uneven terrain below. 😀

I could probably fit bigger wheels on the 26 ragly frame I recently bought but would not want to as the bottom bracket would be too high for me. That is a part of geometry that I really do notice a change in when riding. Just a small increase in what I am used to and I feel really high up and less balanced.

So what you’re saying here is that because people are happy with what they have that they would be more happy with something new which approximates what they already have and that that justifies introducing a new standard which makes stuff incompatible? Or have I totally misunderstood your argument?

A low volume tyre is not a skinny tyre!

Most have moved to higher volume balloon tyres as the norm so the rim standard has now slightly changed to take note of that allowing 27.5 to be the new standard giving wider options.

Less tyre roll and less suspension travel= win imo.

ahwhiles. Tyres have changed man keep up. Even a XC conti 2.25 comes up a smidge under 27.5.
A 2.7 Diesel might have weighed a little bit more than my 600 gram xc Tyre BUT it still might have measured up smaller in circumference.
(note. 26ers use 22inch rims and 650b use 23inch rims.)

Northwind. That makes no sense. Tell me the reason why people fit high volume tyres and the difference between a slightly bigger rim (not a wider tyre.)

Chip. You don’t seem to understand Geo.

Ah, so that’s the reason for the change. Because you need a bigger rim to work with a fatter tyre. It al makes sense now 🙄

I could probably fit bigger wheels on the 26 ragly frame I recently bought but would not want to as the bottom bracket would be too high for me. That is a part of geometry that I really do notice a change in when riding. Just a small increase in what I am used to and I feel really high up and less balanced.

Chip. You don’t seem to understand Geo.

I got that as bigger tyres makes a higher BB??

I have no idea what most of the other stuff your on about,

A fat tyre on a 26″ will not ride the same as a skinny tyre on a 650b

I understand that a 26″ bike with 650b wheels will not be the same as a 650b bike as the geometry has been adapted to allow for the bigger wheels.

Which some people must not as they either wish to fit bigger wheels to there current bike to join the 650b train.
Or tell me that my concerns are unfounded as I could simply in future fit a 27.5 fork to my bike if 26″ forks became unavailable.

I suggest these people do not understand geometry.

Also one of my bikes has a higher bb and I understand that I genuinely feel more aloft and less at one with my bike than I do on my other bikes .
I am not saying this has anything to do with wheelsize apart from would be the case if I just fitted bigger wheels to my current frames .

theocb – Member

Northwind. That makes no sense. Tell me the reason why people fit high volume tyres and the difference between a slightly bigger rim (not a wider tyre.)

Why do people fit high volume tyres? For the high volume, obviously. What are you trying to ask?
What is the difference between a bigger rim? Assuming the rolling circumference is the same, the tyre has to be smaller. Again, obviously, so again what are you actually trying to say here?

Not trying to be funny but you seem hugely confused, earlier you were claiming that most people had tried 650b, now you seem to be saying that a a big tyre on a 26 inch wheel is the same as a small tyre on a bigger rim but at the same time pointing out differences… You can’t have it all these different ways.

Not trying to be funny but you seem hugely confused

…but please keep it up because it’s all very entertaining whilst I sit here with my tea and biscuits. I’m hoping theocb is conjuring up a fantastic sleight of word that will have me even more bamboozled.

you don’t compare 26 inch wheels and fat tyres with 650b wheels and thin tyres

This!

I run 26″ bikes with 2.35″ to 2.5″ Maxxis tyres. On a 650b bike I would also choose to run 2.35″ to 2.5″ Maxxis tyres. There’s no reason why a rider would change tyre width because they’ve changed wheel diameter.

This thread reminds me of the NSMB vid ‘How to be a Mountain biker’

‘Choose a favourite wheel size. Be a dick about it.’

I think (does not mean I am right) people use balloon tyres ( your words ) because they work better at lower pressures, which is desired to soak up the bumps and thumps, a first line of defence for you suspension.

Which you would still benefit from with bigger wheels.

:D. Northwind soz if I confused you. You said

And the reasons for fitting a big tyre are not the same as the reasons for fitting a bigger wheel. The 2 are not the same at all

in response to something I said about most people already having tried 650b (within a few mm’s) by using high volume high profile tyres on 22inch rims.
I just wanted you to explain what you meant (we are not talking about wider or skinnier tyres.)

I’m saying you can get the same level of grip from a lower profile similar (maybe slightly slimmer) width tyre on a 23 inch rim but the advantage would be less sidewall flex and better rolling resistance

If my wheels measure 27.3 inches then I am getting a very clear indicator of what my 27.5 wheels ride like. (hardly going to effect geo is it? they both measure the same near as dammit)

This comparing like for like is also a red herring. Are you implying if I have some 23inch rims the law says I must use inefficient tyres because that’s what I had on my 22inch rims
If I can get a tyre to give me the same benefits as a high profile high volume tyre without the disadvantages then why do you think I need to measure like for like. I want wheels that tick the right boxes and work for me I am not so set in my ways I have to use the same branded tyre with the same volume regardless of rim size. You don’t jump on a 29er and stick a minion up front. The grip in corners on a 29er is immense so you don’t need that big tyre for the same level of grip meaning a choice of a faster rolling tyre with the same grip (it’s a new standard and allows new options for the same benefits with other disadvantages.)
A 23 inch rim offers advantages and disadvantages. Weigh them up and make your choice.

We have slipped away from the OP. I thought the Blog report link was fine apart from the idea that nobody has tried 27.5 wheels before they went and bought them. I think most riders have tried 27.5 and are more than happy with that as a wheel size hence all the big old tyres sold on trail bikes. The bike has evolved and new standards have been born.
People now seem transfixed on the size of tyre rather than the performance of it 😕

Different opinions and all that.

I’m saying you can get the same level of grip from a lower profile similar (maybe slightly slimmer) width tyre on a 23 inch rim but the advantage would be less sidewall flex and better rolling resistance

Rolling resistance would be higher generally as pressures would have to be higher; and sidewall flex is better reduced with wider rims. I’d take a big tyre and wide rim 26″ over a skinnier 650 set up every time, but a wider rim / tyre on 650 is better still ime/imo/personally speaking etc.

We have slipped away from the OP.

Yes and this post didn’t help. Sorry, I can’t resist sometimes )

We have slipped away from the OP.
Yes and this post didn’t help. Sorry, I can’t resist sometimes )

Don’t feel bad. 😀

so what you actually meant was

“due to the general trend to fit bigger tyres to existing 26in wheels most people have ridden bikes that have wheels of an outside diameter close to the mythical 27.5in number that is now being mis-touted as the next big thing”

when what you actually said was

“most people have tried 650B”

I know what you’re getting at but the two statements are not commutable.

I dont think he’s talking about commuting 😉

Back when 650b was announced I came to the conclusion it was the most shameless, money grabbing, nasty, thoughtless, short term, cycnical marketing move I’ve ever seen – pointless toss sold to idiots by shysters.

Having now ridden a couple I see no reason to modify that opinion.

I genuinely hope it fails, taking the careers and livelihoods of those responsible for it’s promotion with it.

At least it’s shown us the true colours of much of the MTB media – they’d promote a turd on a stick if the manufacturers told them to do so.

theocb – Member

in response to something I said about most people already having tried 650b (within a few mm’s) by using high volume high profile tyres on 22inch rims.

Though that was a continuation of the several times you simply said “most people have tried 650b”, when we’d already called you out for that statement. It’s almost like you changed your mind, eh?

theocb – Member
I’m saying you can get the same level of grip from a lower profile similar (maybe slightly slimmer) width tyre on a 23 inch rim but the advantage would be less sidewall flex and better rolling resistance

You can’t just change a couple of variables but presume others are the same. If you run a lower volume tyre, you have to run higher pressure, which means higher rolling resistance-. And higher volume can be an advantage in its own right- a high volume tyre at low pressure provides more grip in some circumstances than a lower volume tyre with the exact same footprint, as it’s more able to conform to rough surfaces.

High volume is a benefit thing in its own right, which is why going from a large volume 26er tyre to a low volume 650b tyre is not generally desirable, which is why you have to compare like with like.

Or, to put it another way- 650b and big tyres on 26 inch are not the same thing at all.

😕 I never changed my mind at all. I double edited one of my posts to clarify within a few mins and before anyone had posted a reply and clearly noted it in my next post when I thought a couple of people had missed it (it’s all there in black and white..)

Your version of rolling resistance is not one I agree with based on our discussion, we all know there are variables, which ones outweigh others is my point. You don’t need to agree with me.. you have your own opinions based on your own skillz.

You are adjusting those variables to suit your version. There is a sweet spot range, I can’t just run lower and lower pressures for better rolling resistance. A lower profile is not going to significantly alter that pressure range IME. The footprint will be similar or the same because it will be a similar width tyre on a 23 inch rim. Tyres conforming at 24 psi or 22psi is not a significant difference IME (I’m not a pro :0)

As I said, most riders have tried a basic level of 650b. Many Riders are very happy with their basic experience of this wheel size. A 23 inch rim offers some advantages over this basic experince and also some disadvantages
Make your choice. BUT..
A 29er rider in the blog saying that nobody had a clue how 650b will ride before buying is nonsense and the discussion evolved just like our bikes have.

Or, to put it another way- 650b and big tyres on 26 inch are not the same thing at all.

They are very very similar with small differences regarding the advantages and disadvantages which I would say come down to the change in how we have used our bikes over the last decade. Evolution of the bike to suit our needs.. bless em.

It has gone full circle I’m just repeating myself. Now I have convinced you all it is not just marketing I feel that my work here is done.

It has gone full circle I’m just repeating myself. Now I have convinced you all it is not just marketing I feel that my work here is done.

whoa there – that’s a bit optimistic

I’m not convinced that so many people have test ridden 650b bikes

I do think the differences between 26 and 650b are really very small and that the blog in the OP includes some marketing BS, albeit pretty gentle, that bigs up the keenness of people to adopt 650b

He told them so.

Just watched the vid for 10 seconds, had to post this then I’ll go back and watch it all and read the comments on here

But

“Don’t feed the trolls” yes we may be angry or cynical, there’s certainly more than 100 of us but us ‘trolls’ feed you.

Both tyres below are 2.4 Trail King (Rubber Queen) fitted into Fox 32 Talas. Different rims, but same internal width plus/minus 1mm
Left is 26, right is 650b

Most comparisons and frustrations that I read are based on comparisons between big 26 tyres like the Rubber Queen compared to a 650b Pancetti Neo Moto or one of the smaller tyres that let the early adopters of the bigger wheelsize squeezed into frames designed for 26″ wheels.
Big 26 vs small 650b makes little sense as a direct comparison as its not simply a case of striving for overall diameter. Think car wheels, a 15″ wheel with a 195 tyre may be the same diameter as a 16″ wheel on 205 series rubber, however there are different ride characteristics.

For example, the voltage FR below makes little sense to me.. squeezing a low volume 650b tire on the front of a gravity bike isn’t going to improve anything. The builder is sacrificing the characteristics he really needs for the sake of it.
Yes, I want to build a Voltage FR with Fox 40 air and high volume 27.5 tyres front and rear… as that makes more sense than this:

For a gravity rider, high volume tyres make sense. For an XC racer, the larger circumference you can get might be the goal, but XC racers will tend towards achieving larger circumference with lower rotational mass hence the underground trend for 650b rim with low volume tire – that started before 29″ wheels were on the mtb world radar.
Although, higher volume XC race tyres at lower pressure makes a world of sense in soem cases on race courses with a natural/technical aspect.

Or, to put it another way- 650b and big tyres on 26 inch are not the same thing at all.

exactly.

/2p

Right, I think I understand your argument now. You’re suggesting that the writer of the blog is wrong about people having no idea how a 650b will ride because they’ve already ridden something with much the same wheel diameter which rides just like a 650b. So if the reason these people know how a 650b rides is because it rides just like the bike they already have, why the excitement? Remind me again what the advantages actually are.

theocb – Member

(it’s all there in black and white..

It certainly is:

theocb – Member

most riders have tried 650b and are very happy with that as a wheel size.

As you say, black and white, and talking about wheel size not effective size or tyre size as you later claim.

It’s all as convincing as the idea that there’s a load of 26 inch marketing teams out there with an agenda.

The whole size thing is just another example of marketing push. The big brands get together and decide on what new specifications and standards they can come up with to make your current bike obsolete faster so you buy newer sooner.

It’s no more than that.

The reason 650b seems so popular all of a sudden is just a fait accompli. The industry want’s change, they know we will naturally resist it, so they hit a ridiculous bar with 29-ers. Not many people fall for it, but when the 650b is rolled out as the new messiah everyone is all over them because they aren’t 29’s but so much more like what we already know. Of course no one stops to think “then f_ck it, i’ll keep what I already have”.

Do the math, draw the diagrams a 29er is 8mm better at rolling over vertical objects than a 26″ wheel. But at the same time that same wheel with the same built rim and tyre will be over 200 grams heavier and of course neither as stiff or as durable.

So if you like having to accelerate greater mass more often during every ride, go for it, knock yourself out buy some 29’s. If not stick to your 26″ and protect your investment in the bike you already own.

So if you like having to accelerate greater mass more often during every ride

Well, not more often really, since a heavier wheel is both harder to accelerate and decelerate right? And once it’s rolling, 200g makes sod all difference to anyone except a world cup xc racer who hasn’t got a good few kg of excess mass to lose himself.

Funny that – the major bike companies have been extolling the virtues of componentry weight loss for years, however minor. 🙂

I don’t remember them telling us it wasn’t worth trading in our bikes for this years wonder model because we weren’t good enough to notice the difference.

Lighter is often good but it went too far, until recently people thought 17mm rims on an XC bike as a norm was fine because they’re light. Seeing 200g more on an mtb wheelset as a real negative and basing a wheelsize decision on that is overestimating the effect of weight on a bike compared to other variables, but weight is easily measured and marketed. Balancing weight, tyre volume / contact patch abilities, wheel size, durability etc becomes tricky to wrap up and sell.

And yes most of us can get lighter and stronger ) Best way to do that is buy a new bike that makes you want to get out more eh? Step this way and check out these all-new wheels, they’re french you know..
(tbh noticing stuff isn’t related to being good on a bike, ime the opposite is often true, with my faster riding friends their ability overcomes minor stuff that makes me feel less confident)

The whole size thing is just another example of marketing push. The big brands get together and decide on what new specifications and standards they can come up with to make your current bike obsolete faster so you buy newer sooner.

It’s no more than that.

Did you watch and understand the video? Santa Cruz say it is customer led.

they hit a ridiculous bar with 29-ers. Not many people fall for it,

Did you watch and understand the video? Santa Cruz say 60% of their sales are 29ers.

So if you like having to accelerate greater mass more often during every ride, go for it, knock yourself out buy some 29’s.

That would be true if everyone was running the lightest wheels and tyres and tubes / tubeless systems all the time. But they aren’t. So sure, for the exact equivalent wheel / tyre / system, the bigger one will be heavier. But if you upgrade your wheel as well as moving to a larger size, the difference cancels out. Likewise by choosing a lighter tyre, lighter tubes, or whatever.

Also, you’d think the people that would really notice if there was an efficiency problem with 29ers, like for example the cyclists who do the Tour Divide, they wouldn’t choose them. But they do, all of them for the most part.

protect your investment

I dunno what is to protect. You have you bike, go enjoy it.

There is a lot of worrying about stuff that hasn’t happened yet. Sure, frame and fork choice for 26ers will get less, but you’ll still be able to get them if you really want them. And if 650B does really take over and kill 26ers totally, well, your next bike will be a 650B. Sure, it is possibly added expense because you can’t use your old tyres, but that’s about it.

I hope a lot of the haters stick to their words and actually give up mountain biking because of this wheel size issue.

I’m looking forward to the quieter trails. 😆

Singlespeed_Shep – Member

I hope a lot of the haters stick to their words and actually give up mountain biking because of this wheel size issue.

Who’s said that?

nikk – Member

Did you watch and understand the video? Santa Cruz say it is customer led.

They’re lying.

FFS is this still going on.

Three of us went out recently on a big 55k ride in the peaks. One on a 29er, one on a 650ber and one on a 26er. Which one was best ?

Couldn’t tell you, because we just had a good day riding our bikes they way they should be rode !

a 26er, a 29er and a 650ber walk into a pub…………

………. what happens next?

A 26in with 2.5in “balloon” tyre fits my bike.
A 650b with slick, low profile 1.95in might just clear the front mech, but anything larger won’t. A 2.1 Racing Ralph definitely won’t fit.
Have I “tried 650b” ? 😉

Judging by what I’ve seen here, either lots of people have tried it and not liked it, or just haven’t tried it. Still only ever seen one single 650b out on the trails (was in Aviemore). Only person around this way that I know of that bought 650b, sent it back unopened and swapped it for the 29er version.

Still think the best article I’ve seen was an MTBR (I think?) one where the outcome was that it picks up all the compromises of 26/29, unlike 99.999% of all articles that say it gets the best features of both.

I’ve got a 26 HT, a 26 FS and a 650b FS. Which one is best…. ?

I’ll be **** if I’m telling you lot !!!

Suffice to say I like riding mountain bikes on trails and mountains and enjoy all three though.

Who’s said that?

No one in particular in this thread but the impression is there from people attitudes, It has come up in other wheel threads.

They’re lying.

So they built a bike no one wants?? and forced people to buy them?? 😆

The reason 650b seems so popular all of a sudden is just a fait accompli. The industry want’s change, they know we will naturally resist it, so they hit a ridiculous bar with 29-ers. Not many people fall for it, but when the 650b is rolled out as the new messiah everyone is all over them because they aren’t 29’s but so much more like what we already know.

This isn’t true though, is it? Have you tried a 29er or 650b? Do you really believe 26″ is the exact sweet spot and nothing else could offer more?

To suggest 29ers are simply a marketing exercise tells me you’ve never riden one. I’ve got one and am undecided if I prefer 26 or 29 but they are very different and offer options that were not there before. That’s good in my book. 650b will be different again no doubt.

Always good fun seeing these threads on here and seeing people get so over excited about something that has not caused them any problems so far. You can buy 26″ bikes, forks and wheels still and will be able to for ages. I bet you will still be able to get them for longer then most of the grumblers keep their current bike.

If the wheel, fork and frame makers think they can sell loads of 26″ gear they’ll keep making it. Why wouldn’t they?

Not the good stuff you won’t. That is if the rapid demise of the 1-1/8 steerer is anything to go by especially with a 15 mm through axel.

If people stop making new 26″ wheel mtbs they will stop making new 26″ forks.
A few models may continue to get made in there current never evolving spec.