- This topic has 18 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 11 years ago by Gotama.
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4130, 725 or Kung Fu?
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trebordFree MemberPosted 11 years ago
Anyone reckon there’s a huge difference between the following:
Surly Karate Monkey
Genesis Fortitude Race
Salsa El Mariachi
This’ll be my first 29er (a rigid build) and I think all could cope quite well with intended XC, singletrack long-day rides.
I have an 853 26″ hardtail, so I know I want steel.
However, I’m not sure about quality, feel (springiness vs stiffness) and weight. The 4130 is clearly the cheapest (and heaviest?). But I’ve read before that, once built up and on the trail, it’s actually quite hard to tell the difference between different steel tubes (i.e. if geometry design is similar).
So, 2 queries:
1) Who has experience of any of the above frames and how do you rate them (positives and negatives)?
2) Who knows their shit when it comes to tubes? Is the Kung Fu on par with 853? Is the 725 very far from these in quality? Is 4130 a bit of a tiring lead lump for all-day XC rides?
Cheers
AndyFull MemberPosted 11 years agoRob I’m a steel head too but would seriously consider Alu for a 29er as the “steel is real” springiness isn’t as critical for a 29er where as weight is.
That said if it has to be steel then geo is more important than tubing choice IMO. My experiences:
853 Sir9 – too big for me (go on the small size for a 29er) so horrible ride
4130 Swift; great geometry and great ride, but a bit heavy
Kung Fu Mariachi – great ride but a bit heavy with the rear drop outs
Scandal – difficult to tell the difference from my Ti frames.Its all very subjective 😀 If you want to try any let me know.
Captain-PugwashFree MemberPosted 11 years agoI’ve ridden a Fortitude at Peaslake and I’m not totally sold on the whole 29er thing. That said it was very nice and rode well over some of the ripped up trails. You do notice the spring in the steel and there is a certain amount comfort that comes from this over an aluminium frame. I’m quite looking forward to having a go on the Genesis High Latitude which is the new steel suspension forked Genesis 29er.
charliedontsurfFull MemberPosted 11 years ago853 sir9… Best bit of steel I have ever ridden
Monkey… Dependable but not very springy after riding 853
Salsa… Between the two above, very nice, ace drop outs. The tubing is good, but not 853, better than standard 4130/monkey.
Not ridden the genesisSteel is great on 29ers, for the same reasons as usual.
Hope this helps.
cyFull MemberPosted 11 years agoRoughly speaking 4130 on the Surly is not heat treated and will be the most solid ride is it’s the weakest of the the three so the designer needs to use more of it (thicker tube walls) to get durability, so it’s also heavier. 725 and Kung Fu are heat treated cromoly (same material as 4130, the heat treatment increases the strength about 30%) so they are likely to be a little lighter than the Surly tube for tube, (don’t know how the dropouts/chain tensioning devices compare weight wise) and roughly on a par with eachother for quality/strength. How they ride has much more to do with the sizes and shapes of the tubes deployed.
tinsyFree MemberPosted 11 years agoAndy this I beleive.
Scandal – difficult to tell the difference from my Ti frames.
Mines a 26″ Scandal though but had a Tinbred before it with a very similar build & I cant tell the difference in ride either, one thing I did notice was Scandal BB does not flex as much and think it was faster as a result, if your going SS this would be even more evident.
I really dont now how anyone can tell subtle ride differences once you got a set of fat tyres on a bike & take wheel flex etc into account, flame me, but I think there is a lot of nonsense about materials, design yes, materials just depend how theyre handled/designed.
JoeFull MemberPosted 11 years agoJust bear in mind that the Surly is probably the most useful bike of the three, will last forever, is probably the heaviest and the cheapest.
I own one and it’s a pleasure to ride, you can adjust the wheelbase, its great for touring, commuting, mountain biking, and everything in the middle.
I can run disks, single speed, rigids, forks, racks, mudguards and some of those combinations combined. It has a big clearance for fat ole tyres.
It’s cheap, the paint job is quite utilitarian and build up it’s very heavy.
JoeFull MemberPosted 11 years ago…and finally while i’m not into having arguments on the internet, the whole reynolds vs 4130 vs this that and the other steel argument is utter nonsense.
It is impossible to tell the difference between a 853 tube set and let’s say a 725 one and probably even a 4130 one (if you can ignore a pound of weight across a bike build). Bear in mind that only the front end of the bike will normally be made of those tubes anyway.
It’s a real nonsense that MTB’ers have bought into to suggest that a branded tubesets ride better than non branded ones. At the end of the day your paying for that nice reynolds sticker on an 853 bike and that’s coming from someone who owns three.
What it comes down to is how the bike has been build and engineered in terms of springyness and flexyness and the manufacturers choice of tube thickness (and not brand).
The surly has been overbuilt for touring, lugging shit around and being a utility and everything else bike. Just look at the original inbreds…they were as springy as anything and made from bog standard off the shelf scaffold piipes.
rant over. I’m not feeling very articulate today. Sorry about my scattered thoughts.
chiefgrooveguruFull MemberPosted 11 years agoBut with CEN requirements can you build a cheaper steel frame to resist fatigue well enough whilst also exhibiting beneficial flex? You could go to thinner tubes but the wall thickness will drive the weight up miles and bring the stiffness back up.
AndyFull MemberPosted 11 years agoGood summary from CTBM, but I do think the sir9 is well over priced. Oh and I tried a Solaris at the weekend and it was the best Steel 29er I’ve tried and light too. Just a shame it can’t be singlespeeded and the Simple can’t be geared.
mrmoFree MemberPosted 11 years agoIt is impossible to tell the difference between a 853 tube set and let’s say a 725 one and probably even a 4130 one (if you can ignore a pound of weight across a bike build).
It is possible to tell the difference, as you point out the weight if nothing else. After all the point of fancy tubing is that it is lighter/stronger.
I have two bontragers, one a race and one a privateer, they do feel different, despite being almost identical. because the tubing isn’t the same.
brantFree MemberPosted 11 years agoThere are manufacturers using 853 in the thickest tube sections which save no weight but do add huge amounts of extra strength. Which will ride with the same qualities as any thick walled frame.
khaniFree MemberPosted 11 years agoI’ve got a mariachi 2 and it’s very nice, not too heavy and feels nice n springy, and the swinging dropouts work a treat, no noise and take seconds to adjust, as above, the tubes thickness and profile and butting make more difference than the actual type of steel used, I can’t see me changing it any time soon as it rides lovely 😀 its a L 19 inch and on the LBS scales of truth it’s 26.18lb with pedals
mboyFree MemberPosted 11 years agoIt is impossible to tell the difference between a 853 tube set and let’s say a 725 one and probably even a 4130 one (if you can ignore a pound of weight across a bike build). Bear in mind that only the front end of the bike will normally be made of those tubes anyway.
Not strictly true, though I understand what you’re trying to get at.
The point is, if as a frame designer, you use 853 main tubes instead of say 4130, you can make the wall thicknesses of the tube thinner for the same strength, dropping the weight, but also introducing a bit more flex/spring/give to the frame.
Or as Brant says, you can just use the same wall thickness tubeset as you would in cheap cromo but in 853 for masses more strength but no reduced weight (a la mk1 Cotic BFe and original Evil Sovereign).
Besides, in some instances, people are happy to justify the extra cost on the (small) weight saving alone, so you can’t say it’s totally pointless. But yes, ultimately a bike is a bike, and 99.9% of us would probably have just as much fun riding out in the woods if we all had to ride round on cheap cromoly steel frames instead of our expensive 853/Ti/Carbon/Scandium frames…
AndyFull MemberPosted 11 years agoOh yeah and light wheels like Hoops on Crest make a huge difference too!
trebordFree MemberPosted 11 years agoBrilliant, thanks for all replies and input.
I have all I need for the build, including Salsa cromo forks, XT components and decent finishing kit.
Just need the frame..Each one of the above appeal–the Surly’s versatility massively so.
I’m not particularly heavy with the muscles, though, and like to be able to chuck my bikes at times.
Andy, you may have a point with the Alu but my last experience really did shake me bones 🙁
Albeit this was a 26″.I need to get decisive before I start looking at ti options!
SprocketJockeyFree MemberPosted 11 years agoI’m not particularly heavy with the muscles, though, and like to be able to chuck my bikes at times.
The Surly is certainly no lightweight, but rides a lot lighter than you’d think. They’re actually pretty nimble once you get them up to speed and anything you can’t ride around just gets steamrollered anyway!
I love mine, and as pointed out, they are massively versatile.
GotamaFree MemberPosted 11 years agoSingular Swift would be worth a look if you haven’t considered it yet. Just got mine and it rides beautifully.
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