http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers en-US Wed, 30 May 2012 01:24:43 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://singletrackworld.com/forum/search.php http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/4#post-1158567 Mon, 22 Feb 2010 00:49:37 +0000 antigee 1158567@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>thx for reposting link and other article </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/4#post-1154929 Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:14:03 +0000 mrelectric 1154929@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Cheers.<br /> Re-checked link;sorry. This seems to work:<br /> <a href="http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Campaigns/0611_DMoxon_CCNconference.ppt" rel="nofollow">http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Campaigns/0611_DMoxon_CCNconference.ppt</a></p> <p>Alos, this is the excellent summary I mentioned too which includes the scientific evidence which shows that MTBing has roughly same effect on trails as walking. Recommended reading for us all!<br /> <a href="http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Campaigns/06_DMoxon_ncaf_paper.doc" rel="nofollow">http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Campaigns/06_DMoxon_ncaf_paper.doc</a> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/4#post-1132865 Sun, 14 Feb 2010 01:47:04 +0000 antigee 1132865@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>MTBers have more in common with walkers than differences</blockquote><br /> agree strongly and it really worries me when see some MTBers that think that we have more in common with MX and 4WD </p> <p>oh and the link don&#39;t work </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/4#post-1131762 Sat, 13 Feb 2010 19:50:55 +0000 mrelectric 1131762@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>There are a number of personal preducices and opinions here about the use of our shared outdoor spaces but MTBers have more in common with walkers than differences. We can point calmly to the body of scientific evidence which shows that MTBing has roughly same effect on trails as walking, and much less than horses in most cases. Personally, I avoid going out when or where I&#39;ll have too much impact and sympathised with the comment about wet, peaty trails being sensitive. I looked carefully at the factual accounts before feeling confident in riding the moors rather than just walking them as I have for decades. The CTC have a really good summary.</p> <p>Also good on other aspects: The future of cycling in the countryside<br /> <a href="http://www.ctc.org.uk/.../0604_DMox_NCAF_Future_of_Cycling_final.doc" rel="nofollow">http://www.ctc.org.uk/.../0604_DMox_NCAF_Future_of_Cycling_final.doc</a> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1130636 Sat, 13 Feb 2010 10:49:26 +0000 Bushwacked 1130636@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>All about education! </p> <p>Educating bikers who don&#39;t currently respect the land to respect it </p> <p>and</p> <p>educting people like this to understand that while we can all be pigeonholed together we are not all the same and on the whole the bad minority are more visible / remembered for what they do than the good majority. (Bit like saying all [insert random group] are going to be [insert negative association] given half the chance)</p> <p>Funny as hell that there are still people out there than don&#39;t quite get the whole sterotyping based on a minorities actions doesn&#39;t quite work <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1130553 Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:57:49 +0000 bikeytom 1130553@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>Why was it that the sudden appearance of bike tracks where they’ve never been before coincided with fresh drinks containers found at the side of very quiet paths when there’s never been litter before?</blockquote></p> <p>seems to me this man may well be confusing mountain bikers with kids who use bikes as a mode of transport to find somewhere to have a quiet drink away from their parents/the police! </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1127783 Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:10:22 +0000 Stu McGroo 1127783@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>the blogger dude suggested the creation of a new footpath, and suggested that 10 people could create it by walking along the route half-a-dozen times.</blockquote></p> <p>shot himself in the foot there then! </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1125968 Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:59:14 +0000 bowglie 1125968@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Oh no, the meeting was last night then - Bugger! Mind you, I was working anyway:(</p> <p>The blogger sounds like the &#39;character&#39; that I&#39;ve encountered (not a retired fella is he?) </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1125430 Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:42:46 +0000 ahwiles 1125430@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>last night was hilarious!</p> <p>the blogger dude suggested the creation of a new footpath, and suggested that 10 people could create it by walking along the route half-a-dozen times.</p> <p>er... wouldn&#39;t that be a good example of the kind of erosion that evil bicyclists are guilty of?</p> <p>just a thought.</p> <p>(he&#39;s really not a bad bloke, in a sort of best-mate&#39;s-favourite-uncle kind of way, good to talk with, lots to say, always worth listening to, just don&#39;t mention the war/greeks/neil kinnock/etc) </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1124837 Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:54:50 +0000 bowglie 1124837@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>I&#39;d like to meet him. Properly sit down and talk to him.</p> <p>I might suggest it.<br /> </blockquote></p> <p>Recommend that anyone who is interested in putting mountain bikers views forward get themselves down to the next Blackamoor Reserves Advisory Group (Blackamoor RAG) meeting run by Sheffield Wildlife Trust (think there&#39;s one in near future, at Totley Methodist Church Hall?).</p> <p>From what I recall, the blogger is one of a very vocal minority who really just want Blackamoor to be a dog exercise park (i.e. no bikers, barbed wire fences, cattle etc.) where they can let &#39;em off the lead for a poo. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1124603 Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:07:20 +0000 Seymour_Butts 1124603@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>IMO It’s just an increase of numbers that causes the erosion whether they be walking or riding. Mountain biking has just given more people the opportunity and excuse to go out and enjoy our beautiful countryside. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1124161 Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:34:46 +0000 muddydwarf 1124161@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Being friendly with a Peaks Ranger who is humself a cyclist (on &amp; off road) we have spoken about trail erosion several times.<br /> He tells me that the Rangers now have an unofficial policy of turning a blind eye to bikes on already eroded-to-rock trails as they are denuded of peat and unlikely to become worse, however they crack down strongly on bikers riding the peaty trails that can become easily damaged.<br /> Their reasoning is that tyre ruts allow faster water run off than boot prints so that the delicate peat soil is eroded faster.</p> <p>Personally this suits me as, A) riding in soft peat isn&#39;t much fun and buggers your drivetrain &amp; B) the rocky stuff is much nicer to ride on.</p> <p>Of course, if challenged about this he will deny all knowledge! <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_wink.gif" title=";)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1123978 Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:59:51 +0000 Stu McGroo 1123978@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>so there you go, much a do about nothing, trouble is this chap will keep banging on and on at this meeting and that meeting and eventually he&#39;ll get something changed through shear persistence rather than any scientific reasoning, then he&#39;ll die happy having achieved something!</p> <p>this chap highlights erosion, but he&#39;s talking about erosion of his footpath, one small strip amongst acres of untouched land, when scientists talk about erosion, they&#39;re talking on a grand scale, 18&quot; of cliffs falling away on the south coast every year etc, this is nature at work, that&#39;s erosion, not a few individuals on foot or bike.</p> <p>as for puddling in footprints, i disagree, a couple of minutes of torrential rain will have those puddled footprints overflowing and the water will run off anyway. and is it not better if the tyre tracks promote running off, surely the paths will drain quicker! </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1118646 Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:21:05 +0000 jim the saint 1118646@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>The extract below is taken from &#39;Cessford, G.R. 2002. Perception and Reality of Conflict: Walkers and<br /> Mountain Bikes on the Queen Charlotte Track in New Zealand.&#39;</p> <p><blockquote>Environmental concerns often feature when people discuss problems associated with<br /> biking in natural areas. In a sample of walkers, Horn (1994a) found that 75% considered that<br /> environmental damage from biking was a problem. A similar focus for concern has been<br /> found among park managers, including 35% of those surveyed in Chavez et al. (1993), and<br /> 42% in Chavez (1996a). However, it is important to note that these impacts have almost<br /> always been related directly to the tracks on which bikes are ridden, rather than on the<br /> environments though which the tracks pass. Like any outdoor recreationists, riders will have<br /> impacts on the environment, including the soils, vegetation, water, and wildlife. But because<br /> most walkers and riders stay on the tracks, wider environmental consequences are minimal<br /> because the direct physical effects are generally confined to the track surface.<br /> Only in particular cases may the passage of bikes or walkers result in significant impact on<br /> important environmental features, as opposed to normal wear-and-tear on tracks. For<br /> example, Goeft &amp; Alder (2000) described a case where bikes were included along with<br /> walkers, forestry vehicles and wildlife as potential vectors by which a particular plant disease<br /> could be spread. Woehrstein (1998, 2001) noted that numerous European studies had found<br /> little difference in effects of walkers and bikers on wildlife. And Papouchis et al (2001) found<br /> that bikers had far less disturbance effects on Bighorn Sheep than walkers, mainly due to<br /> walkers more often moving off tracks and surprising or approaching the animals. To date<br /> there appears to be no evidence of bikes having any more significant impact on important<br /> environmental features than other recreation uses (Cessford, 1995a; Woehrstein, 1998, 2001;<br /> Weir, 2000).<br /> Biking does have an effect on the condition of tracks. These effects are often highly<br /> visually distinctive from those of walking due to the basic differences between tyre tracks and<br /> CESSFORD: PERCEPTION AND REALITY OF CONFLICT: WALKERS AND MOUNTAIN BIKES<br /> ON THE QUEEN CHARLOTTE TRACK IN NEW ZEALAND<br /> footprints. Related to this visual perception, the main concern expressed is that bike tyres<br /> create linear channels that may promote runoff and erosion, as opposed to the puddling caused<br /> by footprints (Keller, 1990). Bjorkman (1996) and others have made extensive investigations<br /> that clearly demonstrated impacts on tracks from bikes, although these were not compared<br /> with those of walkers. What is not clear is the relative significance of bike and boot impacts<br /> on tracks. For park managers, this distinction is particularly important when they are<br /> considering the costs of track maintenance. The usual perception is that biking has<br /> disproportionately higher impact on tracks than does walking. However, when the<br /> comparative effects of different recreation activities have been investigated, the real<br /> differences identified do not conform to these perceptions.<br /> Comparative research on track impacts by Weaver &amp; Dale (1978) found that motorbikes<br /> had the greatest effects while going uphill, but that when going downhill, the effects of horses<br /> and walkers were greater. Including bikes, Wilson and Seney (1994) identified a similar<br /> pattern, and noted that lighter and low-powered bikes had much less track impact potential<br /> than motorbikes. And European research has found that while bikes had greater uphill effects,<br /> walkers had greater downhill effects (Woehrstein 1998, 2001). This draws attention to the<br /> basic distinction between the mechanical effects of rolling wheels and stepping feet (Cessford<br /> 1995a; Weir, 2000), which both have impacts in different ways.<br /> Despite the general perception otherwise, most available comparative reviews and studies<br /> have concluded that while visibly very different, the physical impacts of bikes on tracks were<br /> not any worse than those of walkers overall (Keller, 1990; Wilson &amp; Seney, 1994; Chavez et<br /> al. 1993; Ruff &amp; Mellors; 1993, Cessford, 1995a; Woehrstein, 1998, 2001; Weir, 2000;<br /> Thurston &amp; Reader, 2001;). This appears to be the case whether considering important<br /> biological features or the physical state of the tracks. On this basis, selective restrictions to<br /> biking based on physical impact concerns may be inappropriate. Any physical impact<br /> problems that arise are more likely to be the effects of greater use-levels overall, or from<br /> tracks passing through physically sensitive environments, particularly related to bad drainage<br /> characteristics. Here it seems that the problem relates more to how biking is generally<br /> perceived rather than the actual effects it may have.</blockquote> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1118531 Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:52:05 +0000 grantway 1118531@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Think you will find that people walking will make<br /> more errossion to the forest than a Mountain biker. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1118446 Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:33:38 +0000 thefallguy 1118446@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>sounds good! Redmires, stanage, lady canning, blackamoor.... </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1118438 Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:32:02 +0000 myheadsashed 1118438@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>So the next mass singletrack group ride will be..........BLACKAMOOR yes? <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_redface.gif" title=":oops:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1118422 Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:27:16 +0000 thefallguy 1118422@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>This chap is like an OAP clarkson, making amusing generalisations and blaming anyone but himself.Erosion is a fact of life wherever man goes, walkers horses bikes vehicles all contribute, there are plenty of paths that never see a bike and need repair just from footfall. </p> <p>The walkers I have encountered are largely good natured, usually impressed that you are biking in the hills, I think provided you&#39;re not frightening them with excessive speed they are mostly fine. The only walkers with bad attitudes I have ever encountered seem to be the over 60&#39;s ramblers in larger groups, who have grown old not been used to, or accepting of bikes on their beloved walks. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1118255 Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:34:06 +0000 IdleJon 1118255@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>owenfackrell - Member </p> <p>TandemJeremy - Member [quote]</p> <p>RopeyReignRider - Member</p> <p>.................</p> <p>Actually, has anyone noticed an interesting phenomenon? Walkers up big hills, proper mountains and in inhospitable places in general, seem to be much, much friendlier to bikers than those pottering around the foot hills / lanes with their Goretex and carbon pole things.</p> <p>Yup. From a series of discussions on here and my own observations I believe that the further you go from the road, the worse the weather and the further north you are the better reception you receive from walkers.</p> <p>In the highlands in winter I have never come accross and issues</p> <p>I would agree with that other than the further north bit as i have not had any problems down here in the south and only got some odd comments in the peaks. </blockquote></p> <p>And here in South Wales, the only confrontations I&#39;ve ever had in the hills in the last 15 years have been with farmers (twice I think). Walkers around here are more likely to just have a chat than complain about MTBers. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wow-does-this-guy-not-like-mountain-bikers/page/3#post-1118045 Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:26:59 +0000 TandemJeremy 1118045@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Oxymoron - the problem is the number of variables that cannot be controlled or measured. Saturated peat is just mashed up by mtbs in no timne</p> <p>Citations would be interesting.</p> <p>Just anecdotally from what I have seen the type of soil and steepness of the terrain make a huge difference and seem to have different effects on bike and boot erosion rates. Purely observational / anecdotal tho. </p>