Johnnie, ring me later when you find out

ignoring the potential tax benefits.

These have all but dissappeared haven't they?? i've been looking at contracting and its far less appealling than the headline figure suggested. Once you've paid your employers NI (11%?) as well as umbrella company or accountancy fees you're looking at 60% deductions.

+ no holidays, no sick pay etc..

if i'm wrong on this i'd love to know!

Johnnie, ring me later when you find out

Still not getting the GD cheap either way 😆

You only pay employer's NI on the PAYE salary you pay yourself. You can minimise this and pay the rest in benefits. accountancy fees are £110/quarter or something for me.

I take home way way more than I would as a permie. That's why I do it 🙂

If you want to work say 6mo and take 6mo off, you will also end up paying less tax than if you work 12mo. Although you'll have less coming in, but you see what I mean. With contracting you can either work as hard and rake in the money, or work much less hard and get the same money.

how do you pay yourself in benefits? i thought IR35 stopped a lot of this?

Bonuses and dividends. You still pay tax, but it's less. Not benefits.

IR35 says that if you are working as a permie employee then you have to pay full tax. So what constitutes working as a permie employee is up for debate.

Surely this argument of public versus private sectors is a little irrelevant in today's current economic and political climate. It seems that thousands of public sector workers will be made redundant or not have their contracts renewed, and thousands of private sector workers who work for companies with large public sector contracts are also losing their jobs – its sh*t to be made redundant whichever sector you work in, and the possibilty of finding new work must be diminishing daily.

I've been made redundant 3 times and the first time it lead to significant relationship, financial and a few health problems. The other two times it has led to new opportunities.

Best wishes to all those who are either redundant or under threat of redundancy!

On the contractor subject also remember if you have a half decent accountant you can claim an awful lot of tax breaks as a contractor. On your lunch, on your spare room office, on your petrol to work….etc….etc…

Depends how willing you are to push it. I know someone who bought a VW camper van through his contracting company as a 'mobile office'. He then also bought a rib and the latest is a harley as company vechiles.

On the subject of redundancies, I'm expecting them in my area too, just got to wait to see how many.

you can claim an awful lot of tax breaks as a contractor. On your lunch, on your spare room office, on your petrol to work….etc….etc..

Yeah that's a bunch of arse tho. Talk about fibbing to save a few quid.

I worked in the city I lived in for four years. Cycled 4 miles to work. Didn't claim a thing – it'd be dishonest to do so I reckon. Although a lot of my contractor mates were surprised. Once my finances are better I think I'm gonna up my PAYE salary and pay more tax, cos it's only fair.

Yeah that's a bunch of arse tho. Talk about fibbing to save a few quid

Perfectly legal to claim for mileage, food, office etc… and it does work out alot per annum. I think buying a rib etc.. as a company vechile is pushing it, but said contractor is still happily getting away with it. I believe you buy it minus VAT, keep it for 3 years as a company vechile and then sell it back to yourself for peanuts, legal yes, moral? probably not.

PeterPoddy – "I keep volunteering to go, but they won't make me redundant…"

Same here, I watch people who want to stay get kicked and people who want to go get kept, sometimes i just assume the decisions are being made out of spite. And then the "fortunate" who stay get to deal with the workload of those that left. No winners really, except people who want out and get out.

Yeah but office? When it's your spare room? It's ok to claim for expenses if they are not spurious nonsense… agreed – not moral.

Northwind –

Same here, I watch people who want to stay get kicked and people who want to go get kept, sometimes i just assume the decisions are being made out of spite. And then the "fortunate" who stay get to deal with the workload of those that left. No winners really, except people who want out and get out.

This is usually because they don't want to pay the redundancy. In my business they don't want to let go of the old-timers as their redundancy would be > £100k (I think it is max of 2 x yearly salary).

Saying that, my area is due to be outsourced early next year (computing) so I expect everything to be shipped off to another country and the statutory minimum be handed out, as one of the few things not in your contract is redundancy terms.

That's what we thought till the longest serving member of staff got canned. TBH I work for a company which has been mentally ill for a few years, so I don't think it's really capable of producing such a logical if cynical decision. Assuming my initial assumption (spite) is wrong, the only other logical explanation is that they take all the names and write them on the floor, then cut the head off a chicken and let it run around, whichever name it's closest to when it dies gets the chop.

legal yes, moral? probably not.

We don't make the rules, but have to stick to them.

Consequently every expenses that is generated in our business is claimed for – nothing more, nothing less.

Private sector, 16 redundancies announced last friday. I'm a contractor so I imagine I'm going too!

Company makes over £200m profit in the first 5 months too.

Right, and calling your spare room an office when you check your email in there once a week does not entitle you (morally) to reimbursement.

We don't make the rules, but have to stick to them.

Consequently every expenses that is generated in our business is claimed for – nothing more, nothing less.

yes but you dont have to claim for these you actually make a decision just like the people who have 10 children and dont work. You did not make the rules nor the system but you are personally responsible for exploiting it and your justification is morally weak. I assume you would still eat if you were not at work for example so it is not really a true business expense it is a cost of living

Cr*p out there at the moment isn't it. I'm not sure pushing the public / private sector divide is helping much either. Public sector employees need to understand the private sector has been going through this for the last two years, it's nothing new, private sector employees need to realise it hurts regardless of who you work for and what your T & Cs are.

I do think the public sector unions need to be a bit more mindful of some of the rhetoric that's coming out at the moment though. Most people in the private sector (be they paid more or not) usually find themselves facing statutory redundancy and that's usually no more than a couple of months salary if you're really lucky. Don't forget stat redundancy is capped. Personally I think there are a lot of non jobs and inefficiencies in the public sector. My biggest fear though is it won't be these things that get addressed, bit like the private sector it will be cost cutting time to save the largest amount of money in the quickest, easiest way rather than cost reduction measures where thought has been given to what we can actually do without and what things can be done more efficiently.

Without wishing to say too much, service reviews are happening in some areas to identify just that. To the person who said 'we've worked 2, 3 and 4 day weeks to cut costs' assume nothing. I know private has been going through this for 2 years+ – some areas have been preparing for this for 2 years+ with recruitment freezes, pay freezes etc. The problem was, we factored for 15% cut in budget in lieu of real numbers and have been blown out of the water by the 25%-40% figures being bandied about. I could go on and on about this but I will now hand my soapbox back.
To the OP, I hope it was good news.

shame to have to read about all of this

the public/private row will roll on for ever, however its nice to see the consultants outing themselves as being on equivalent terms to MPs and bankers

"its tax avoidance and not evasion"
"i dont make the rules, i stick to them"

its a sad state of affairs and the infighting is devastating

rootes1 – Member

1.5 years ago we all took 10 or 20% cuts in pay and some on 2,3 or 4 day weeks as measures to avoid redundancies…

think the public sector should do the same rather than just a freeze

And the reason the UK economy didn't go down the pan completely was precisely because of the public sector ………..the private sector went titz up, so thank **** for the public sector.

What never ceases to amaze me, is how many daft tw4ts there are in the private sector who haven't worked out that better conditions and pay in the public sector is good for them, as their employers are faced with a competitive labour market. Do they not understand the theory behind 'market forces' ?

As hundreds of thousands of former public sector employees pour into the private sector in the next few years, it will have a huge impact on private sector wages and conditions. And it won't be positive. Some people need to learn a bit about class politics, and not believe all the shite they read in the Daily Mail/Daily Telegraph 💡

.

Good luck btw Junkyard.

However in more and more cases it is becoming an accepted business tool for covering up budget shortfalls caused by incompetent management.

The employment laws are too soft, its simply been made to easy to get rid of staff. Easy to hire, easy to fire.

We can't be the only country that has continues to suffer from p*ss poor management?

What never ceases to amaze me, is how many daft tw4ts there are in the private sector who haven't worked out that better conditions and pay in the public sector is good for them, as their employers are faced with a competitive labour market. Do they not understand the theory behind 'market forces' ?

I have an associate who works in the private sector, but on public sector contracts and his colleagues have done nothing but criticise the amount of money that the previous Government splurged to keep the economy going in the last few years. Money spent for their jobs and they just can't acknowledge that. Now after voting for the current Government, they are expecting their jobs to go. Turkeys…really thick turkeys at that, voting for Christmas.

A few overpaid and underworked council workers get redundancy and its sad,but we pay them,and we need to make cutbacks, did we get support when whole industries where destroyed by the thatcher, steel, coal, the car industry, rail workshops,british rail, the national bus company, printing newspapers, and theres more, we survived somehow, and struggled, we lost our skills and way of producing world class trains buses and coaches and trains, along with cars and numerous other things that allowed us to be called the Engineering hub.

Some of us got new jobs and where pursued to the ends of the earth for unpaid council tax(because we had no income, the council didnt accept that)all to fund early retirements and stress retirements for council workers,pointless sculptures, new council offices, crap roads,etc now the shoe is on the other foot welcome to the real world of work or unemployment.

Dont forget to claim your child benefit,free school meals, council tax benefit and housing benefit,you may even persuade your Gp to sign you off with stress or some other disability,then you can have a brand new mobility car, and only need to fill it with petrol,and you get a new one every 3 years.

Then when somebody says youre a scrounger and should get a job, say what jobs, ive written 10 letters over the last year and still got no job, as a token responce.

Lets not forget all the money problems that appear, along with relationship problems you suddenly have to live and sleep with your partner/wife, if you have one 24 hours a day, no going out for 8 hours plus a day to work.

Been there, seen the films and lived the nightmare.

Nothing above is meant to be aimed at any particular person,as redundancy is sad,and best wishes to anybody who is now joining the ride of their life.

Best wishes Junkyard,and perhaps the ones making the redundancuies in your office will someday be on the other ebnd of the dredded letter in front of thier collegues

On the contractor subject also remember if you have a half decent accountant you can claim an awful lot of tax breaks as a contractor. On your lunch, on your spare room office, on your petrol to work….etc….etc…

I presume this is the sort of thing you say with pride when the country has a massive deficit resulting in lots of people losing their jobs?

I presume this is the sort of thing you say with pride when the country has a massive deficit resulting in lots of people losing their jobs?

Hilarious. If the better off can "evade" taxation why can't personnel of the lower order do the same?

This is a cold hard capitalist economy after all, where sentimental stuff like pride or the country or caring about people losing their jobs are obsolete, everyone must look out for number one…

I got to a suicidal state when I was redundant, it really is a pretty hard place to be, especially when you have to do something which is far worse than losing your house or watching the repo man walk off with your telly…..
….You have to go down the dole office and watch some snotty nosed 16 year old who wasn't even born when you started paying into the system look down their nose at you and ask why you didn't apply for that shelf stacking job they put you onto.

I didn't come out of the redundancy announcemnet in hysterics though, I came out looking for weapons. The company went under because of indept and corrupt management….and for that they deserved to die.

Best wishes Junkyard,and perhaps the ones making the redundancuies in your office will someday be on the other ebnd of the dredded letter in front of thier collegues

I love it, while there are indeed many prime examples of mismanagement there are also lots and lots of companies that have been managed well that still have to make people redundant. I've done it (once) in my company and let me tell you i didn't fckn smile about doing that, it was a simple choice, we'd cut back where we could and this was the last and final option before we were very very deeply in the poo. But then as the fat cat at the top i got the cream which was no salary for 14 months and the stress of (mis) managing my business in a tight market on a shoestring paying salaries every month from my own credit card and mortgage just so we could all survive. Sometimes you have to think about it like that – its not pleasant for anyone. Hope it works out OK for you.

After the 2nd round of redundancies in the space of a year, I made it easy for them and I've not looked back since. The whole company shut down not long after in any case.

I'm now back out grafting on the tools with very little stress and 100% happier than I was rotting away in a middle management office environment not able to sleep at night due to the pressure of daily bullshit.

My saving grace in this instance seems to be leaving school and learning a trade (whilst earning not much money), rather than tossing it off at uni studying a worthless degree in some nonsense or other.

samuri – Member
I got to a suicidal state when I was redundant, it really is a pretty hard place to be, especially when you have to do something which is far worse than losing your house or watching the repo man walk off with your telly…..
….You have to go down the dole office and watch some snotty nosed 16 year old who wasn't even born when you started paying into the system look down their nose at you and ask why you didn't apply for that shelf stacking job they put you onto.

Posted 10 hours ago # Report-Post

When i got TUPED and was asked to travel 50m miles to my new depot i left, went to sign on, and the first question i asked when asked what sort of job i wanted, i said like hers over there, ive been standing in the queue for 45 minutes to sign up, and that woman has just delivered cups of tea to the staff, dropped papers on the floor, chatted to the male staff,and generally walked around.

The kid behind the desk looked and said thats our boss, so i then said i want a job like hers,and on her pay.

Stunned silence, 🙂

50m miles to my new depot

50 million miles? That's a hell of a commute.

My saving grace in this instance seems to be leaving school and learning a trade (whilst earning not much money), rather than tossing it off at uni studying a worthless degree in some nonsense or other.

I hope you're not rubbishing university…

Three people have come out hysterically crying and one had to have an ambulance called.

Blimey – that's pretty serious!

And in the meantime bankers and senior exec salaries accelerate to ever madder levels…. When will the madness stop? Probably never.

When will the madness stop?

When the developing world reaches something approaching our quality of life. The fact is that manufacturing will continue to move around the world, often with these off shore plants upping their game and winning work from plants in home nations.

I seem to remember that HP have all their accounts done in the Phillipines (similar / same accounting rules as the US) and that their Singapore operation started as an assembly plant but gradually developed R&D skills. There are two results – increased profits and a stick with which to beat staff. Exec pay is generally linked to profits, and worker pay can be driven down. So it is.

As soon as it becomes uneconomic to keep moving to the lowest cost places, we'll see worker's wages rising.

When the developing world reaches something approaching our quality of life.

Outsourcing will only intensify – there is effectively a 6 billion labour pool which multinationals are free to use according to lowest cost.

Advice is therefore to go for jobs which are local in nature – you need to be physically close to your market – car repairs, hairdressers, teachers.

Outsourcing will only intensify – there is effectively a 6 billion labour pool which multinationals are free to use according to lowest cost.

There is and there isn't. Once you eliminate countries where the rule of law, education or infrastructure is poor (particularly ports), you rule out a fair few. As SE Asia gets richer, rising costs, combined with shipping costs and lead times (flexibility, cost of capital) will eliminate much of the advantage of producing there.

Some people need to learn a bit about class politics

that will be Derek Hatton "scuttling around in Taxi's" delivering redundancy notices then

What never ceases to amaze me, is how many daft tw4ts there are in the private sector who haven't worked out that better conditions and pay in the public sector is good for them, as their employers are faced with a competitive labour market. Do they not understand the theory behind 'market forces' ?

hmmmmm, I'm paying for the unfunded public sector pensions >£4k p.a. the good news is that market forces mean that the private sector will have to offer final salary schemes to compete for staff…….what a load of rubbish!

You will be defending 3-6 times income for redundancy next

I've worked in a semi-public sector role for over 20 years – I don't recall people going on about how well paid etc we were 20, 15 , 10 even 5 years ago.

Perhaps the current contrast has less to do with "idyllic" conditions in the public sector but rather the deteriorating working conditions in the private sector caused by a combination of incompetent management or simply naked profiteering, exploitation and lack of social responsibilty of companies who downsize, outsource, cut pension rates, casualise at the same time as making record profits.

You might also ask why the redundant face JS allowance of £65 quid a week while we are still giving aid to China or much more than that in weekly child benefit for the families of barristers, stock brokers, Government ministers etc.

Now is the very time we need strong unions and a socialist or at least socially responsible government to lead the country.

What never ceases to amaze me, is how many daft tw4ts there are in the private sector who haven't worked out that better conditions and pay in the public sector is good for them, as their employers are faced with a competitive labour market.

Have you ever tried moving from one sector to the other, it's not actually that easy, most public sector employers assume that people from the private sector don't understand the public sector ethos (from those people I know who have gone private to public sector this tends to manifest as the ex private sector employee being appalled at the waste and lack of accountability, which to be fair is a bit rich considering how badly managed alot of the private sector is) and most private sector employers assume people from the public sector are workshy, institutionalised and lacking business acumen.

Alright that might be slightly over egging the situation but it is actually quite difficult to move between sectors.

You will be defending 3-6 times income for redundancy next

God given right enshrined in law surely. I do sometimes wonder if public sector employees T & Cs should be a lot closer to the statutory minimums. If it's acceptable for private sector employees to have their redundancy capped, minimum of four weeks holiday etc. then surely it should be fine for those in public service who are funded by the tax payer. DOn't forget if a private company wants to pay better than the minimum it has to balence that with staying competitive, not quite the same quid pro quo in the public sector is there.

Now is the very time we need strong unions and a socialist or at least socially responsible government to lead the country.

Would the last person to leave please turn the lights off 🙄