Where will the axe fall…

Trout. Twas ever thus I feel.

samuri – Member

You don't need to predict where the cuts will be made, the government make it public knowledge.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/press_04_10.pdf

This is just the first £6Bn, there's another £157Bn still to go!

Today's speech was a heads up for much deeper cuts to come.

We have some painful changes coming and no party that was competing for power would have won votes by being open about what is needed to sort out this monumental mess the UK has got itself into (sorry the Labour party got us into!).

Politicians!! They don't "arf" cost tax payers a lot of money!

At least we now have an administration with some degree of economic competence, who aren't in denial, or living in financial cloud cuckoo land!

I expect the layers of pointless middle management in health, education and defense will take the first big hit.

All senior public sector workers will be pressed to accept a pay cut.

I'm sure the Socialist worker and the unions will be whipping the public sector up into a frenzy.

The next few years could get quite ugly!

Let's hope people are responsible enough and mature enough to understand what is needed to get us back in the black and to get some tangible growth back in the economy.

An IT friend handed them a programme on which they've built some of their initiatives. He now says they're looking at closing down a division of the company due to potential loss of government contracts. I resisted the temptation to comment.
I work in the state sector and all my budgets go on private sector providers. Cut my budgets, they suffer. Logic?
David Blanchflower argues that the deficit is £7bn less than was previously thought, that cancels the need for this year's £6bn cuts. Plus the ratio of deficit to GDP is the same as in the US, Obama is doing none of this.
There'll be blood on the streets.

£157Bn, split between about 20M tax payers.

Works out at around £8K each, give or take.

Per year 🙁

I'm front line staff for nhs mental health, in my experience of this and social services the cuts will hit older peoples services. It's usually the first hit as it has the weakest lobby and poorest public profile, if the public were that bothered we wouldn't have some of the current care services that are availible. Gray heads dying of neglect just don't get the same attention as kids doing the same or nutter's off'ing folk.

Oh, come on. It's a doddle to save billions.

* Scrap Trident. OK, so maybe it's a short term thing but we're unlikely to be invaded by Iran in the next decade.

* Scrap all foreign aid. We give money to repulsive African dictatorships and last year financed a £100 million rocket launch in India.

* Cut civil service pension contributions. You want your final salary pension? You pay into it. The rest of us have lost ours.

* Cut BBC funding. We don't need BBC Alba etc. If the BBC wants to keep them they can be more efficient in other areas and use the money saved from the license fee.

* Cut Higher Education funding by 25%. I studied Physics and worked damned hard at University. Too many people are there on Sports Studies / Media Studies / Politics degrees which they don't use. The goal of 50% of people to University was a pointless class attack.

* Child Trust Funds already gone [tick]

* Kill Educational Maintenance Allowance. If people really need it, they should apply for it formally and have it means tested. Too many people were getting it needlessly when I was doing my A-levels years ago.

* A massive overhaul over the benefits system. I know several people who could easily work but fraudulently claim benefits. I (amongst others) have reported them. No one seems to care. The aggressive ads on TV mean shit.

* Fix the f****** Job Centre network. When I was briefly unemployed last year, they didn't even have a field in their computer system for my degree. How the hell are they supposed to match me with a job or offer salient advice?

* While I'm at it, the job centre really doesn't need 1 security guard per 2 staff. What a waste of money.

* Stop chucking money around on "investigations". Last year some group was given £15 million to look at alternative sources of energy production. As a physicist I can tell you that it's nuclear or nothing, unless we want the country covered in wind turbines. And if we had done that, we'd have been royally stuffed last week when the average wind across the country was variable at 2 knots.

* Double taxes on alcohol and cigarettes. Yeah, it penalises the worst off but it's a quick and easy source of income, and it won't do anyone any harm to cut down on either. As a drinker (but not a smoker) I accept that it's a necessity.

* Which reminds me – if you're a heavy drinker or smoker and you need NHS treatment because of your habit, then you either quit or your treatment is withdrawn. Sorry, it's the way it is.

* Stop pushing ahead with DAB etc for the time being. Leave it ten years, FM will do fine and we can spend the money elsewhere.

* Cut ALL funding to any religious organisations. God will help them if necessary.

* Cut money on state visits (sort of linked to above, why in blazes is taxpayer money partly funding the Pope's visit?

It's not difficult to make that list go on for pages and pages.

Flaperon for PM!!! well said mate.

it's not difficult to make a list go on for pages and pages

is that with the benefit of your hard fought physics degree, you mother must be proud

SOOBallas – Nope, it's common sense. Isn't it obvious?

As a physicist I can tell you that it's nuclear or nothing

.

Well that settles it for me then.

.

💡 How about dropping a line to Chris Huhne the Energy Minister and letting him know too ?

.

Don't forget to mention your physics degree.

People voted Labour 3 times in a row.

Labour p1ssed money up the wall like a drunken sailor on shore leave for 13 years, and when it ran out they just printed more.*

Welcome to 1979.

* Though to give them credit they took longer than any other Labour government in history to completely screw up the economy, even if they deliberately caused and prolonged a housing boom to fuel their spending plans and looked the other way when the banks were coming up with all sorts of dodgy schemes because they were paying for 11% of the public spending in this country.

Flaperon – you missed off…….

Put tax & duty on aviation fuel at the same rate it is on fuel bought for road vehicles

You work for an airline don't you?

Cut ALL funding to any religious organisations. God will help them if necessary.

That's my favourite so far.

"Cut ALL funding to any religious organisations. God will help them if necessary."

I'm not into organised religion personally, but churches and religious groups can help people when they lose their jobs by providing a support network.

We are going through a Great Correction – debt needs to be repaid or written off, this process could take five to ten years. In the meantime, the UK needs to try and restore social institutions which in the past help people get through hard times, as an alternative to drugs, alcohol and despair.

Clubs and pasttimes – sounds trivial but they can be very important to people.

Flaperon for PM +1

Well said sir!!!

All pretty sound stuff there flaperon. One thing to correct is that the movement to digital radio and tv delivery frees up loads of spectrum for flogging to the private sector. No one believes we'll see 3G licence prices again, but its handy cash nonetheless.

Stricter criteria for mobility assistance. Have you seen what you can get on Mobility Assistance?

Who needs a 18k car to run around in when a 8k Aygo is perfectly reasonable.

Most of the above rants just confirm my belief that this is going to turn into a horrific situation for many people and their families, and often the most vulnerable. Everyone rants on about 'frontline services' but rarely have a clue what these are, or more importantly what wouldn't be counted as 'frontline'. Others just gleefully go on about cut this, cut that, forgetting that behind those suggestions there are real people, with families, who would face redundancy and the possible loss of homes etc

As has been said, there seems to be very little acceptance of:
– the fact that actually bailing out the banks and responding to the global economic breakdown 'caused' this situation, not an overspending public sector of Labour
– the making cuts to the public sector hits the private sector hard – my budget (which I fully expect to be cut) currently supports approximately 5 full-time private sector workers – losing these contracts will mean a huge number of private sector workers will loose their jobs
– the knock on effect of making so many people redundant will hit the wider economy far more than in the last few years – especially retail / service sector and housing.
– these 'cuts' affect real people, and is already causing a huge amount of stress and anxiety

So no, this isn't great, and our delightful new PM's suggestion that 'public good' services could be provided by the private sector is b*llocks

amazingly we still provide aid to India and China, both of these countries have their own space programmes!
China has a reported 1 trillion pound surplus! Madness

Sue_W – very well said.

Lots of tabloid-inspired BS being talked in this thread.

I don't want to frighten anybody or anything, but just to clarify the level of complete crap that the Socialists have left us in… from "http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/" this morning –

"UK National Debt
May 17th, 2009 | uk economy –

What is the Real Level of UK National Debt?
However, it is argued that UK’s national debt is actually a lot higher. This is because national debt should include pension contributions and private finance initiatives PFI which the government are obliged to pay.

The Centre for Policy Studies (at end of 2008) argues that the real national debt is actually £1,340 billion, which is 103.5 per cent of GDP."

And there they still are on the telly, yacking on about it as though they have ANYTHING AT ALL THAT IS CREDIBLE to say on the subject. Pfft.

the level of complete crap that the Socialists have left us in

Gosh, I haven't seen one of them since new labour got in!

Suw_W

No, the banks issue did not cause this, it just speeded it up. The annual deficit is c.£160bn, but the total debt is c.£770bn. Even during the very best years the Labour government was spending more than it was earning.

Yes, the NHS, Schools etc have benefited from much needed extra money under Labour, but they did it with money they didn't have. Unfortunately this is a feature of Labour governments, they bankrupt the country, then the Conservatives get the blame for making cuts to sort it out again. I'm not aligned to any political party as I think they are all pretty much self serving snakes, but what Labour has done is criminal. It's the same as your neighbour earning £100k a year and buying fast cars, swimming pools, gold jewellery, and expensive holidays then going bankrupt. Except governments can't benefit from IFA's and bankruptcy courts.

the fact that actually bailing out the banks and responding to the global economic breakdown 'caused' this situation, not an overspending public sector of Labour

The problem the government is trying to solve is the deficit, which is how much more it spends than it gets in in taxes. This is nothing to do with bailing out the banks – as others on this forum have pointed out, bailing out the banks may end up with the government making a profit and reducing the debt (but not the deficit).

The deficit has gone up as a result of unrealistic forecasts of economic growth (I believe someone thought they had ended boom and bust, when in reality they had created one of the longest booms ever which is now followed by the inevitable big bust), which is why the independent forecasting body is a good idea. Despite the boom the government ran a deficit from 2002 onwards to fund increased public spending, i.e. they spent money we didn't have having convinced themselves and others that they had pulled off an economic miracle. Which was just hubris IMHO.

Edit: Boriselbrus, you got in just before me, but I trump you with a graph!! 🙂

NHS will loose "suits", those who wander the corridors under made up job titles. Lots of junior admin staff will probably also go, as will senior nurse roles. Best nursing role to have at the moment is that of staff nurse/band 5, basically a bog standard ward based nurse.

Tax and Spend – Labour said they wouldn't be returning to that approach when we voted them in back in 97; did they lie?

This is what happened:
global overcapacity in the 1970s = lower profitability rates for companies + lower wages for workers = companies and workers had to take on more debt = massive debt bubble = to save economic system, debt was pushed onto the state.

did they lie?

Not entirely – they did the spend bit but didn't go far enough with the taxing to cover the spending. If they had then people would have wised up earlier.

As has been said, there seems to be very little acceptance of:
– the fact that actually bailing out the banks and responding to the global economic breakdown 'caused' this situation, not an overspending public sector of Labour
– the making cuts to the public sector hits the private sector hard – my budget (which I fully expect to be cut) currently supports approximately 5 full-time private sector workers – losing these contracts will mean a huge number of private sector workers will loose their jobs
– the knock on effect of making so many people redundant will hit the wider economy far more than in the last few years – especially retail / service sector and housing.
– these 'cuts' affect real people, and is already causing a huge amount of stress and anxiety

So no, this isn't great, and our delightful new PM's suggestion that 'public good' services could be provided by the private sector is b*llocks

Well said.

Yes, the NHS, Schools etc have benefited from much needed extra money under Labour, but they did it with money they didn't have.

All fine and dandy, it was the voter that wanted these services, but didn't want to pay for them. Who's responsible?

I don't want to frighten anybody or anything, but just to clarify the level of complete crap that the Socialists have left us in… from "http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/" this morning –

You do talk utter carp Woppit, the cock up that the previous Government made was continuation of the Thatcherite policies all endorsed by UK voter.

Shame that some have suffered memory loss over where all this had started.

I don't want to frighten anybody or anything, but just to clarify the level of complete crap that the Socialists have left us in…

Where were these socialists? I wish we had had some socialists in power for the last 13 years instead of more Thatcherites.

boriselbrus and Rio – cheers, interesting stuff (and nothing beats a good graph!)

mmm … as you make clear the difference between spending and income is substantial. However, although my inital comment was not entirely correct, the bailing out the banking system did cause a substantial increase in public spending. The breakdown of spending by government department makes interesting reading –

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/may/17/uk-public-spending-departments-money-cuts#zoomed-picture

Looking at the breakdown of expenditure by department shows a range of percentage increases and decreases depending on department, but the one that really stands out is the Treasury which had a jaw-dropping 49891% increase between 2008 and 2009!!! The majority of this massivive expenditure went on proping up the banks and economy, a whopping £85.5 million got spent just on this!

So instead, those departments which didn't have a massive increase in spending, and many of which were actually decreasing expenditure, will now be hit with huge cuts to compensate.

the cock up that the previous Government made was continuation of the Thatcherite policies all endorsed by UK voter

Not bad, nearly 2 pages before someone blames Thatcher. 🙄

Thatcher was last in power 20 years ago. The Major government left the country's economics in good shape. Blair/Brown have had 13 years to screw things up. And still it's Thatchers fault. Unbelievable.

did they lie?
Not entirely – they did the spend bit but didn't go far enough with the taxing to cover the spending. If they had then people would have wised up earlier.

Well they did put an unlimited extra 1% on NI but didn't carry it through really. But then we wouldn't have had the boom if they'd really taxed us as needed….

They did a lot more than just increase NI – think about the raids on pensions etc (one of Brown's biggest legacies is his oversight of the destruction of a pensions system that was the envy of the world), "green" taxes etc. But it's all been stealth taxes, not the headline stuff that might threaten re-election.

Not bad, nearly 2 pages before someone blames Thatcher.

Thatcher was last in power 20 years ago. The Major government left the country's economics in good shape. Blair/Brown have had 13 years to screw things up. And still it's Thatchers fault. Unbelievable.

And her legacy is still here. You have just chosen to ignore it and your part in this as a voter. The economics may have been in good shape, but everything else wasn't. That's why Blair came to power promising better this and that knowing full well that people wanted it, but weren't prepared to pay for it.

It took 17 years for the cumulative effect of those 80's polices to finally play out. And then people blame the Socialists! The only socialist thing that the previous Government did was to nationalise the banks in order to save the economy and capitalism.

Stricter criteria for mobility assistance. Have you seen what you can get on Mobility Assistance?

Who needs a 18k car to run around in when a 8k Aygo is perfectly reasonable.

Motobility is a charity its not Gov't payouts, people on the scheme use the benefit they are entitled to.
Tell you what, why not just give out those old Blue 3-wheelers again with a sticker on the back that says "I don't deserve more than this as I'm disabled"
An 18k car, or any car, for that matter is scant compensation for limited mobility.

And then people blame the Socialists!

I haven't seen anyone blaming the socialists. I blame the Blair/Brown governments, which is something completely different IMHO.

Personally I'd rather see taxes go up. Basic rate of income tax, VAT. Keep the public sector workers in work that way we're paying tax, buying goods rather adding to the swathes of folk currently draining the state of money in benefits and other support.

As a physicist I can tell you that it's nuclear or nothing

Well that settles it for me then.

How about dropping a line to Chris Huhne the Energy Minister and letting him know too ?

Don't forget to mention your physics degree.

ernie – the comment wasn't quite as flippant as it might seem. What I do know is that renewable power can't cut it for the whole country. Wind turbines might just about work if they were EVERYWHERE, but ironically a lot of the greenies (rightly?) object to them being built in sites of natural beauty.

Offshore *might* work, but development has stalled, presumably for a good reason.

What a basic grasp of physics does tell me is that there's nothing magical waiting in the wings to replace nuclear, which is what a lot of people appear to be hoping. The panic began to set in a couple of years ago when Labour finally pushed ahead with getting our nuclear stations rolling again but it's going to be significantly late to the party.

There is a solution, but no one will like it, and that's to make SIGNIFICANT energy savings everywhere. Start switching motorway lighting off late at night (trialled, but still a lot left on). If your business runs 9-5, then you can go on a premium tariff overnight, which will stop a lot of companies leaving computers and lights switched on with no one home.

Actually ban the sale of incandescent light bulbs. I know that there are viable replacements now through LED because I'm using them. CFL was always doomed to fail. People that need "daylight" can get the exact colour from LED. It's great.

Identify viable sites for wind farms. I said they can't do all our power generation, but they can do some. Offer the people who object a choice – they can have support to cut their electricity usage and for every [insert random figure here] percent they save, they suffer one less wind turbine.

Aviation fuel tax – sure, but don't forget that airlines are already taxed per passenger / flight, depending on the state of the wind at the time. Probably be grateful for a fuel tax, because all that would happen is that everyone would fill up outside the UK and tanker fuel around. Not a good position on the green front, because 10% of tankered fuel is burnt to carry it around.

rio

your knowledge of the pension failure is very poor
pension holidays were devised by lawson and used heavily by lammont long before brown was using it – the idea was to take money stashed away in pension pots and put it back into the economy so that finances look healthier
majors government leaving us with a surplus was due to the reckless utilities sell off (we now have highest price for broadband/gas/elec and train travel per km in europe), bringing the NHS to its knees, pension holidays and the billions that came in from the north sea oil
making out that the tories had some kind of financial magic wand is naive

and all of this is against a backdrop of financial deregulation and turning us from a manufacturing country into a financial services economy, which is inherently vulnerable to things like global crashes

it was the crash that killed the pensions, 60bn in pension funds was wiped out overnight

it also showed the flaw in the system, once the music stops if you have no seat to fall back on you are fuct
now pay attention all of this is considered "THATCHERITE" and it turns out brown was a brilliant thatcherite able to do this and keep inflation down(something the tories always wanted but could never manage)

as mandy said, "We are all thatcherites now"
we now have a culture of greed , we want scandanavian levels of services with american levels of taxation, it just isnt possible