Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 44 total)
  • When gearbox bikes look like this, I’ll buy one
  • Premier Icon ayjaydoubleyou
    Free Member

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CS6H_6KsEPu/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

    Design intern at Canyon has managed to acheive where others have failed. It neither looks like an ebike, or a Halfords special.

    (currently a non functioning prototype and with conspicuously absent brake hoses) but give it trigger shifters and a bottle cage and I’ll put down a deposit…

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    Design intern at Canyon has managed to acheive where others have failed.

    What, make a non-functioning prototype? It does look snappy, especially that seatmast if a heavy rider lands a drop badly.

    Premier Icon mjsmke
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    Looks nice but don’t understand the extra sprocket above the cranks. It just causes less contact on the chainring which will lead to faster wear.

    Premier Icon ayjaydoubleyou
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    the extra sprocket above the cranks

    is at or about the main pivot location on this particular bike.

    with the pivot up high and no idler pulley, it will pedal like poo and chain growth will be massive – a particular problem with only the little tensioner on the rear.

    Premier Icon Tim
    Free Member

    I can feel the combined drag of the idler and gearbox from here 😉

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Full Member

    I can feel the combined drag of the idler and gearbox from here

    It’s not that bad tbf (Deviate Guide owner). Better for winch and plummet style riding, but not horrific.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    Looks nice but don’t understand the extra sprocket above the cranks.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/tested-how-much-slower-are-idler-bikes-when-climbing.html

    It just causes less contact on the chainring which will lead to faster wear.

    In practice, no. Only the first few links of the chain that contact the chainring are actually taking the load.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Nothing really special about that frame, in fact there’s more material around the gearbox which makes it look more like an ebike imo.

    It doesn’t have to be that complicated, does this look like a halfords special, or an ebike?

    For most people it’s not looks holding them back, it’s basic preconceptions.

    The drag is far too much
    It’s too heavy
    Gripshift? What is this, 1995?
    It looks funny
    You have to stop pedalling completely for 5 minutes when changing gear
    Etc. Etc.

    When I come to replace my jeffsy frame in a few years I’d go gearbox on that without hesitation.

    Premier Icon ayjaydoubleyou
    Free Member

    It doesn’t have to be that complicated, does this look like a halfords special, or an ebike?

    That does look good in some ways – the finish and the angles especially, and its a nice overall build.

    But (just my personal aesthetic opinion) that big ol’ gearbox clashes with the skinny tubes gives the appearance of an e-bike conversion kit – without the battery. Sorry (assuming its your bike).

    I still like it, and can see its benefits, but its not OMG wow beautiful to me.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
    Full Member

    No offence taken, tbh I expected to have loads of people ask what sort of ebike it is when out riding, but none at all.

    I bloody love it, I recommended everyone try one to see how good they are and how little the “issues” matter in real life.

    The gearbox isn’t really that big either, no bigger than the palm of my hand.

    Premier Icon poah
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    That canyon bike looks a bit rank TBF – That HT is pretty sweet looking

    Premier Icon nickc
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     it’s basic preconceptions.

    It’ solving a problem that doesn’t exist for me, is the biggest one I think. Most folk that use them are happy with derailleurs and don’t see the point in changing. The other one is that while folk are still whining about “standards” but  they’re happy to buy a frame that just has the proprietary fittings for one manufacturers solution?

    OPs bike does look nice though I’ll give it that.

    Premier Icon lawman91
    Full Member

    Looks kinda similar to the Sherpa one-off that was doing the rounds last year:

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-four-year-story-of-fin-woods-diy-carbon-enduro-gearbox-bike.html

    I think if someone can create a gearbox with minimal drag, a trigger shifter at roughly GX/SLX weight with a 500%ish gear range, it might take off, but until there’s a standard for mounting them to frame so you have choice of which gearbox you go for, the cost comes down and the friction/drag is dramatically reduced, it won’t take off at all and will remain a niche.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
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    Yeah agree that derailleurs have been refined so much that for most people they’re good enough.

    Gearboxes will always be niche I think, I’d love for them to gain a bigger following but I can’t see it happening unless Shimano or Sram jump on board with the same frame mount as Pinion.

    As for standards, well pinion are unlikely to change thier mount and make all their previous model gearboxes obsolete so that’s one thing 😁 the biggest issue around standards on a gearbox bike is that some manufacturers still use non boost spacing with single speed rear hubs, some use boost spacing.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    until there’s a standard for mounting them to frame so you have choice of which gearbox you go for, the cost comes down and the friction/drag is dramatically reduced, it won’t take off at all and will remain a niche.

    This comes up about once a month. A gearbox needs precision machining. It will always be more expensive than a derailleur system. Friction is inherent to gears. It will always be a bit draggier than a chain. Whether it’s enough to worry about is a different question, but a cheap gearbox with the same efficiency as a chain is a fantasy.

    Premier Icon PrinceJohn
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    What a terrible design – the down tube position makes it look like a step through frame & that shock is going to get mullered by crap thrown on it from the rear tyre.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
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    Seems others are following pinions lead in the mounting standards.

    https://www.effigear.com/en/86-The-Mimic.html

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Good to see – similar price to the Pinion gearbox too, they’re using a secondary cable which is spring loaded to provide the ‘pull’ rather than it being connected to the shifter.

    Premier Icon ayjaydoubleyou
    Free Member

    I think if someone can create a gearbox with minimal drag, a trigger shifter at roughly GX/SLX weight with a 500%ish gear range, it might take off,

    question is how do you weigh it? or rather what do you weigh it against?

    you get to have a singlespeed hub (possibly in non-boost guise, that might save another few grams)
    you get a shorter chain (comparing high pivot to high pivot)
    you will still need a tensioner on a full suss
    you are removing the BB, and some of the crank weight

    Frame + drivetrain + shifter + rear hub? Thats going to be a fun comparison.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Not forgetting that more weight, in the right place, can be a good thing…

    Weight central on the bike and not on the wheels will improve the suspension performance, so what you lose in overall weight, you gain in other areas.

    It’s why people arbitrally saying “it’s too heavy” need to ride one to see why it’s actually not.

    The drag thing as well, it really is a non issue. Stating it needs to be dramatically reduced… No.

    Yes it’s a tiny bit more draggy than a sparkly clean chain and mech. But with some mud and in the highest or lowest gears and its probably got less drag. Another thing that when riding you really don’t notice.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    Weight central on the bike and not on the wheels will improve the suspension performance, so what you lose in overall weight, you gain in other areas.

    Having a lighter rear wheel will help, but a rider weighs 50 to 100 kg and sits up high. 1 kg of ballast around the BB area isn’t going to improve the suspension performance to any significant degree.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    I’m not bothered about weight but I am about drag. Half way up some big climb I’ll be wishing for every % I can get.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
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    Having a lighter rear wheel will help, but a rider weighs 50 to 100 kg and sits up high. 1 kg of ballast around the BB area isn’t going to improve the suspension performance to any significant degree.

    It would, you only have to read any gearbox FS review from the past 5 years, they all say how much better the small bump is and how much more planted the bike feels. Ebikes have the same thing, but with a higher sprung/unsprung mass ratio.

    Remove 500g from the rear wheel and add 1kg to the frame at the BB and it will make a fair difference to how the bike rides.

    Premier Icon qwerty
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    Fugly.

    Premier Icon thepodge
    Free Member

    Bike has electric motor = it’s too easy, make it harder.

    Bike has gearbox = it’s too hard, make it easier.

    I imagine the Canyon is a non-functioning prototype and that’s because a) they don’t want to develop such an eyesore and b) they can’t make it work (inside those design parameters)… Making something work is the difficult bit.

    Olsen bikes have a few gearbox bikes and I suggested he built a standard BB bolt on… Can’t remember if he did or not. Anyway, shouldn’t be too hard to mock one up and have a magazine do a side by side test with as much of the same build as possible. Perhaps STW might be interested in an original and interesting article that promotes UK bike building.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Anyway, shouldn’t be too hard to mock one up and have a magazine do a side by side test with as much of the same build as possible.

    Pinkbike did this with a couple of nicolai bikes a few years back.

    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/nicolai-shootout-derailleur-vs-gearbox-2017.html

    In summary, pinion bike a beast going down hill, not so good for climbing.

    Premier Icon thepodge
    Free Member

    I’d do chain Vs chain not belt, keep as much similar.

    I wonder how much has changed since 2017.

    Premier Icon intheborders
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    Worth a watch.

    Looks very ‘agricultural’ but interesting listening to his thoughts on the gearbox.

    For me though, why haven’t ebikes got a gearbox, seems logical – currently they’re a bit like pre-unit motorbikes (with a motor and the mech/cassette).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-unit_construction

    Premier Icon thepodge
    Free Member

    I was expecting / hoping that ebikes would push gearbox development but just seems Shimano want to produce more “standard” gears that aren’t compatible with any existing products or standards… see the new XT.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    It would, you only have to read any gearbox FS review from the past 5 years, they all say how much better the small bump is and how much more planted the bike feels. Ebikes have the same thing, but with a higher sprung/unsprung mass ratio.

    Remove 500g from the rear wheel and add 1kg to the frame at the BB and it will make a fair difference to how the bike rides.

    Gearbox bikes allow designers to run a high pivot an route the chain around a sprocket at that point. That makes a huge difference to suspension performance downhill.

    Removing 500g from the rear wheel will always have a positive effect, but it’s not enough to stop DH racers running big heavy tyres. Adding 1 kg around the BB won’t make a noticeable difference to the sprung/unsprung mass given that the rider generally weighs 70 kg or more. If a bit of ballast down low made a huge difference, you’d see DH riders fitting water bottle cages to their bikes so they could add or remove water as ballast.

    So: high pivot will make a big difference; lighter back wheel a small difference; heavier BB not worth the extra weight.

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    That Effi gearbox could persuade me – trigger shifter, baby!

    I am wondering if I hold on to the Marin as long as I can if I can then go for a gearbox HT. Ta11Pau1’s bike looks lovely.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Full Member

    I think Cinq really missed the boat when it came to marketing their trigger shifters for pinion gearboxes…

    Premier Icon thepodge
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    Everyone but me has brought out a high pivot bike in the last couple of years and the vast majority run on normal gears, gearboxes have nothing (well very little) to do with pivot points.

    Lots of people saying moving an air shock lower down is good so clearly moving the main weight of the bike would make a difference too.

    Chris Porter (bring on the haters) has tried adding weight to frames to measure performance but heavier frames don’t sell to the market as we’re still in the mindset that lighter is better when really it’s a massive grey area.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
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    Looks a damn sight better than Gigas and their SC cousins, puts me in mind of the Scott Spark RC with a bit more opened up.

    I’d have it.

    As for DH riders running heavy tyres, that’s a compromise between weight and actually wanting to get to the end of a run.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    gearboxes have nothing (well very little) to do with pivot points.

    Lots of people saying moving an air shock lower down is good so clearly moving the main weight of the bike would make a difference too.

    To run a high pivot, you generally need to run an idler gear so that the chain forces don’t affect the suspension. This is kinda built into gearboxes because the output shaft is in a different location to the input shaft so designers just need to package the gearbox to put the output shaft up high. Running a high pivot with regular cranksets and derailleurs is a bit of a bodge because you need to route the chain around an extra idler sprocket up high. Fine for a DH oriented bike but not great for most applications.

    Moving the existing weight down is a good thing, no question there, but that won’t change the sprung/unsprung ratio at all. To change that, you either need to reduce the weight of the wheel or swingarm, or increase the weight of the front subframe or rider. Adding extra weight as ballast in order to alter the sprung/unsprung weight ratio is probably counterproductive overall because an extra kilo is less than 2% of the weight of the rider. Factory DH teams generally do whatever they can to reduce weight, they don’t build massively strong bikes that weigh 60 pounds and I’ve never heard of anyone ballasting a frame around the BB to improve suspension performance.

    Premier Icon thols2
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    Chris Porter (bring on the haters) has tried adding weight to frames to measure performance

    Do you have a link to his results? Did he try and find it wasn’t worth it?

    Premier Icon thepodge
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    Nope, you’re still wrong. The pinion has its output and input concentric plus the output on other gearboxes that aren’t concentric may not be anywhere near where you want the pivot. The two things are no more connected than high pivots and standard gears.

    I don’t have a link, you’ll have to hunt it out, he was doing it on a purple geometron by taping lead weights to the downtube and headtube (to balance the frame) with his privateer DH racer Jack Reading (I think). If I remember correctly the rider said it improved some aspects of handling but decided against running it as it was a jumpy course.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    If I remember correctly the rider said it improved some aspects of handling but decided against running it as it was a jumpy course.

    So it was worse than a lighter frame overall. I think that explains why people prefer lighter frames.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
    Full Member

    If a bit of ballast down low made a huge difference, you’d see DH riders fitting water bottle cages to their bikes so they could add or remove water as ballast.

    DH teams have done this in the past.

    So it was worse than a lighter frame overall. I think that explains why people prefer lighter frames.

    Could that statement be any more broad?

    The actual details, for those interested:

    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/tech-randoms-fort-william-world-cup-2017.html

    Jack wouldn’t tell us the weight of the lead but just said he’s been working with Chris Porter from Mojo, and through testing has found that by placing the extra weight behind the stem and at the bottom bracket helps to calm down the forces and roughness from tracks, keeping the ride planted.

    It is track specific, however, as Jack says the extra weight feels good on the fast and rough tracks but made the bike feel a little ‘dead’ on the tight and twisty sections.

    So, not worse than a lighter frame overall. Better in some areas, not in others.

    This is kinda built into gearboxes because the output shaft is in a different location to the input shaft so designers just need to package the gearbox to put the output shaft up high.

    Have you actually seen a gearbox?

    Both the pinion and the new effigear have the output shafts in the same place as the input shaft. Making the gearbox big enough to have the output shaft high up enough for a high pivot bike would not only make the gearbox massive, it would make it incompatible with all other bikes not high pivot, and would make it incompatible with the standard pinion gearbox mount.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    Here’s a diagram of the Effigear transmission. It has pivot bearings built into the casing, concentric with the output shaft.

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