Okay, so that was a bit immature 😆

I’m building up a wheelset, and just wanted some advice before from ‘experienced chappies’ before buying spokes and getting on with it!
Spoke lengths have been calculated at 261.0, 261.1, 262.7and 262.7 as I am using cx-rays even lenghts are the only choice – it seems 32 of 260 and 32 of 262 seem the safest bet? However if possible all the same length would be brilliant- thoughts?

I am very much keen to build up a wheelset with durability in mind as such.. are spoke washer and nipple washers needed? The rear hub is a true precision and has very good tolerances, and the front is a hope pro 2 evo (2.6mm holes). The rims are derby 650B ‘beefy’ options, he says as long as the nipples are 6mm min it’s fine, which the sapim brass polyax are, but only are the widest point?

Nipples: I have got a pack of 16mm, easier build, look nice, it’s what derby himself builds with. My only (bit late now!) concern was that the spoke might bend against the nipple edge causing failure, as the nipples are quite long?

Lubes: linseed oil seems to be fairly well regarded for spoke/nipple nipple/rim bed interface? Otherwise the purple loctite is also recomended I think.. any personal experience? They’re going to see the peaks, scottish highlands, wales, (hopefully even the alps!) but the former on a v. regular basis 2-7 times a week, so durability is key!

Phew. Thanks again Singletrackers, coming to the end of a build 3 years in the making.. you shall be rewarded soon 😀

Did you factor the nipple length when calculating spoke length? Longer nipples mean shorter spokes. Most use 12mm as standard fir calculations.

If your numbers are right, I’d be happy using 262mm for all.

I use copaslip on spoke threads and a little chain oil on the rim interface. However, I’ve not built any carbon rims yet but I don’t see it making that much difference. I don’t favour thread lock or spoke prep. I like to know I can adjust them later if needs be. A properly tensioned wheel will not come undone.

Yep, the Sapim ones are longer but the thread dosnt extended with the length, unlike the dt nipples!
Interesting, do we have a second opinion?

Those were my thoughts from researching it, thank you!

I use motor oil which is fine, anything that lubricates will work but something which won’t harden is my preference. I’ve not built with cx rays but I’d imagine they’re a bit more difficult than the more solid spokes, that said you’ll be able to tell if they are twisting do perhaps not so bad. I highly recommend the book from wheelpro. My dt swiss nipples have a funnel shape at the top, not sure about any others

Yep, plus have a lil holder to stop spoke twist! Likewise with the funnel shape.

Any thoughts on the spoke lengths? Desperate to get on and order them, I keep putting it off!

Bump – help please! Spoke length?

As an aside, would copper anti-sieze work for the nipples?

I use finish line lube when I build. I’m in the lubricate and build right camp rather than thread locking them.

CX rays can be a pain to build with and I’ve snapped a fair few in road use. Personally I’d avoid.

I’d use 262 throughout from your measurements.
Also, you don’t need to ‘lock’ the nipples on at all. I use a light oil on the threads and the spoke bed. Reason? Well, WHEN you bend it and need to true the wheel again, you want the nipples to move easily. You should feel the difference between an unlubed OEM wheel and one you’ve built yourself after a year or two! A decently built wheel doesn’t need the nipples locked on.
Spoke washers are intended to take up slack in spoke/hole tolerances. Usually this is when the hub has already been used and the holes are tad larger than they were. They’re very old school too, and look lovely on the right (all silver IMO) wheel. Not necessary on all new components but if you want to use them, fire away!
You’ll also need to punch the head of each nipple (there’s a thing called a nipple punch beleive it or not!) to seat the washer/spoke into the hub too.

Ah the purple locktite I reffered to is actually not a ‘locking’ formula, it penetrates inside threads to help release and re-sets itself when back in place (unlike blue locktite!)

From what your both saying, anti-sieze seems like the best bet them? Dries out slower than grease, is meant for components that you want to remove again (unlike locktite 😆 )?

Ahh, another person that says 262 – many thanks! I know, +/-1mm is fine, it’s just a lot of money for spokes so I wanted some re-assurance!

Ahh, that explains the spoke washers (it will be silver spokes/nipples) – but from the sonds of it there is no need! Nipple wzshers might make sense, although no-one else seems to build with them – which given their reported benefits seems strange!

any reccomendations for other spokes? The rims are carbon so stiff as hell anyway, durability is really important, then comes weight, then comes price. To be used on a DH hardtail (that will l also be used for peaks ragging, ‘enduro’, mega, ard ‘rock’ that sort of thing!) Although I do have spokes I’d be happy -ish ordering matching DT ones if theres a strong argument for it

I use whatever fork oil I’ve had from a recent service and I never lock the spokes. A tight build with equal spoke tension shouldn’t become loose.

If they were my wheels, for that duty, I’d be using sapim race or dt comp. Seems odd to get a really stiff rim and then match it to a spoke which is widely known to be a bit twangy.

How many have you built in the past?

Me, or the OP?

Wasnt aware of the twangy? Es[ecally seeing as tehy are offered with flows, which arent particularly stiff! Also, I’m not concerned about a vastly stiff wheel build, there is a point of no returns! 😛 I choose them based on ‘want’ and having the best fatigue life (so longest product life) and being oval, fits normal spoke holes but allows grip to lessen spoke build up (less hassle than two on, one off imho)

Me? None 😯 Done spoke replacements, plenty of truing etc. but first wheel build, I’m happy to take my time

Building with race or comp spokes using lubed nipples, I’ve never had any issue with wind-up. Especially if you stress relieve as part of your building process.

I have no qualms building with ‘straight’ spokes, I was just thinking of cx rays xD any more opinions on spoke length etc?

Why do people have this idea that longer nipples means shorter spokes?
The right length spoke is the right length spoke, regardless of nipple length-look through the rim from the tyre side of a built wheel to see where the nipple is supported by the spoke, ideally the end of the spoke will sit in the middle of the slot-the length of the nipple has no bearing on that at all.

I use wet lube for building, rarely use thread lock as it’s just not needed if they’re built properly.
I’d agree with the above though, why not use a more substantial spoke if you want strength, stiffness & reliability? Sapim Race or DT Comp would be my choice.

WOW!
you have read a lot into this TGC.

Ive built… maybe 6 wheels now.
They have all gone with “the closest spoke” (ie, bought one size, which should work for all lengths needed)
and have greased the nipples with whatever was within arms reach at the time! (3 in 1 for most of them iirc)
never used washers (but always bought rims with steel eyelets)
wouldnt consider threadlock myself. The spokes will settle over the first 100 miles, and you will just have to break the bond. Grease/lube lets you do the spokes up a bit tighter before spokes start twisting.

I can admit that my first wheel, i didnt realise that rim eyelets had a left and right :oops:. Rode that wheel for over a year before i noticed. Swapped them over when i did realise but it never caused any issues. It got nicked so i dont know how it is these days i’m afraid!

having said that, my riding style is “light and skippy” rather than “bulldoze”

although no-one else seems to build with them – which given their reported benefits seems strange!

disadvantges:

you have to remember buy them
you have to remember to put them on
they add weight

perhaps?

IMO, its not that difficult, as long as you take your time and dont expect to get your first wheel perfect perfect. One can easily over work these things and trash a perfectly good wheel. better to leave it with a mm of vertical hop in it, rather than get frustrated and ruin it.

Goldenwonder, longer nipples from dt thread all the way. That means a longer nipple would bottom out on the “right” length spoke. Therefore, longer nipples need shorter spokes when using dt. The Wheelpro book shows this nicely with some good cross-sectional pictures.

Onzadog,
longer spokes have their place (Mavic 819 etc.) when you need them so you can actually get a spoke key on them,
Longer in a conventional build but shorter spokes leads to a weaker wheel-far more evident with alloy nipples as it simply isn’t supported correctly, but the sample principles apply regardless.
But hey, what do I know, I just do it for a living..

Dont worry, I’m not adjusting for longer spokes – especially as the sapim ones dont have longer internal threads. I’m curious as to why you (in your previous post) suggest a more ‘substantial’ spoke? from all the research I have done it seems cx-rays are more than qualified for the job. They’re used on some dh wheels and regularly with alu rimsetc. I am using deep section carbon rims with high flange hubs which should build a very stiff wheel. Then cx-rays have the highest fatigue life and tensile strength so should be the most durable, and at a higher tension, most reliable spokes of choice?

Definitely use lube if you’re a virgin.

build it right, use light oil, get it tensioned properly

and don’t thread lock – that’s a solution for crappy cheap machine builds with rubbish tensions

I would use race or comp spokes myself.

spoke washer and nipple washers needed

nope

he spokes will settle over the first 100 miles, and you will just have to break the bond

They’ll only settle if the wheel hasn’t been destressed during building. Build it right and that won’t happen.

I’ve built quite a lot of wheels.

My advice like most above would be to go with 262 spokes. I’d avoid Xrays for your first build though as they wind up quite a lot which can make them trickier to build with (definitely put a drop of lube between the nipple and rim to make wind up less likely if you do).

I don’t use any lube between spoke and nipple nor any threadlock – I just don’t find that it’s an issue though I might make an exception for alloy nipples if they’re going to be regularly used in crap conditions.

As above too, you shouldn’t need to retrue after ‘bedding’ in if they’ve been properly built (with the odd exception with some softer hubs/nipples/rims where there is actually some settling/stretching between components as they get ridden)

Thanks for the advice all!
Clubber -can i just hear your reasoning why to use 262’s? As much as I’d like to have just one spoke length, surely the ‘safest bet’ is to use 32 260’s and 32 262’s?

Why 262s? I’d probably have been happy enough to use 260s actually but 262 is a pretty standard size and I’ve built wheels with up to 6 or 7mm variance from the ‘correct’ figure without too much trouble (though that will depend on the particularly spokes and nipples and rim bed depth (for inner tube/tape clearance).

But usually I’d rather built with the ‘incorrect’ spokes being a bit too long rather than too short so I’d go with the 262. Not to mention that 262 will mean that half of the spokes are the ‘correctly length’ rather than none.

Not that I reckon it really matters. 2mm is rarely critical in wheel building.

I’ve always done the opposite, on the basis that calculated spoke lengths don’t account for stretch (of which there is quite a bit) and that I like to build my wheels tight. Too long a spoke and you can run out of thread.

The second part is wise words though – 2mm either way should be fine.

It’s a preference thing. Either way, it’s never caused me a problem.

ah but the 260 is the correct length for half and 262 is the correct length. But it seems from what people are saying it shouldnt matter too much? In which case there seems to be no harm doing the build ‘anally’ with a mixture of 260’s and 262’s and then for spares I can use 262’s!

None at all if you’re happy to get 32 of each.

If you can get the mix of 260 and 262 for the same price as all 260 or all 262 then I’d go for the mix. Unless you’re disorganised and might mix them up 🙂

yep, buying them 1 piece at a time so i reckon I’m going to order 35 of each and call it a day.

Wheelbuilding by installments?

😆
I meant the site I’m ordering from lets you choose the number of spokes. Right all ordered now, gone without washers etc. Seems like no-one uses them, which should point to them not being needed, and the extra hassle. Now, everyone seems to be fine with whatever grease you have lying around at the time.. we’ll see! Still think copper antisieze sounds good – acts like grease, but dosnt wash out and dosnt set.