I think you miss mine if you could still only borrow 3x income houses wouldn’t have sky rocketed as people would only be able to buy within their means, so buy to let would have been a lot less prevalent as it wouldn’t be so easy for them to get the money as well

Prices hadn’t moved a lot previously

Not suggesting people buying buy to let’s aren’t adding to the problem just saying why I think it’s surged

Quick google suggests private rentals have nearly doubled in the last 10 years 😳

University has gone through the roof since people started borrowing money to do it

Quick google suggests private rentals have nearly doubled in the last 10 years

Well homes are needed.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/22/construction-of-homes-for-social-rent-down-80-percent-on-a-decade-ago-england-families-waiting-lists

And

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/overviewoftheukpopulation/mar2017#the-uk-population-is-growing

Prices won’t plummet, ever. Too many people have got a vested interest in keeping them rising (or at least holding steady).

Prices won’t plummet, ever. Too many people have got a vested interest in keeping them rising (or at least holding steady).

Clearly you weren’t in the housing market in the early – mid 90’s; that’s what people, including me, were saying then.
What happened? Price falls of c50% in some areas; East Anglia being one of them – I know as I lived there at the time and felt the pain.

You are missing the point, I would have been able to buy the house if BTL was not driving the market up

Would you though? How much deposit did you have against what you actually needed?

In real terms how much are the BTL buyers “driving the market up?”

and my savings were not going on over inflated rents.

You couldn’t afford to buy. You’re whining about ‘having’ to rent. Forth time lucky: what’s your alternative?

Affordable houses exist. Mine sold for £60k. To mortgage that tomorrow you’d need a £12k deposit. Have you got £12k lying around? If not, how is that a landlords’ fault?

I find this blindspot incredible, but many just simply have not had the same experiences.

It’s not about experiences, it’s about correct appropriation of blame. My girlfriend is renting, her capital worth is in the red. Aside from shacking up with me (or someone else) her only option of getting on the property ladder is a 100% mortgage. If she can’t get that – and the mortgage lenders wanted a £30k deposit from her daughter recently – then at the risk of repeating myself, what’s the alternative? If mortgage lenders want a deposit you don’t have and no-one is letting rental properties, what are you going to do?

I understand your dilemma and I sympathise, it’s a shit situation all round. But I posed the question “why is BTL such a bad thing?” and I am as yet unconvinced by your argument, without BTL tenancy as an option you’d have been on the streets or still living with your mum.

If the BTL market is driving property prices up by, I don’t know pick a figure, 20%, that just means you’d need to find ten grand rather than twelve to buy my armpit of a house.

Not much love for or understanding of BTL landlords in some posts.
For clarity, I’m not one of them.
They can be seen as anything between a social good and thieving bastard; it’s a broad spectrum.
We’ve moved a long way from the thread title but I’l play.
If you have a deposit and satisfy the lenders affordability criteria, you have options – buy, rent, live with parents, live in car/van, live in tent.
If you don’t have deposit and/or fail to satisfy affordability criteria you can scrub buy from the list above but the other options are still available.
BTL is not a guaranteed way to make money but has attracted a high level of opprobrium.
Sure, some landlords are unscrupulous but many others aren’t.
Some are small scale, friendly, supportive, looking to cover their mortgage and other essential costs; others are large scale, profit driven and see it as a business.
BTL landlords have decided to use their (spare) capital in the housing market; nothing wrong with that.
They are partially filling a huge gap left by councils largely walking away from social housing.
Pre-covid my suggestion would have been – take on a second job and save like F; not useful now so… work, save, minimise expenditure, differentiate between wants and need, convert ‘stuff’ into cash, swap/switch utilities and bank, stop take aways and so it goes on.
It’s also tiresome to read the bleating comments about…older generation(s), pensions, zero hours contracts, how unfair life is.
The ‘older generation’ have not gone out of their way to make life difficult for subsequent generations.
Let’s take final salary pension schemes; for people of certain age they were the only available option; first day in new job, told to see Margie in payroll office – just sign here to enroll in pension scheme, no option, explanation or discussion so you’re in the DB scheme. Never see the money so don’t miss it.
Employers were able to fully fund pension schemes – then.
Who knew what the future would hold?
Hindsight gives all of us perfect vision.
As for houses owned by older generation(s) – affordable mortgage based on 2.5X salary with possibly 1X second income; tightly controlled expenditure; credit card debt – what’s that?stuffed wardrobes – no, latest technology – no, public transport everywhere as cars weren’t ‘a thing’ so…prudent. Generally, no wish to move and re-mortgage.
Market movements were completely outside of their control.
Good fortune – yes.
Why slag them off?

Why slag them off?

Is it not the system people are slagging off? When many people own multiple homes, that reduces the supply of homes available to buy for people who want to own their own home. Pretty obvious why some people don’t like that situation.

Sure let’s just shut up and accept that’s things are they way they are, fine I guess as you are profiteering, but why do people not care about their children?

The pull yourself up by your bootstraps brigade are the same people that did not have to do this.

For the record I saved a 80k deposit over 12 years, working through uni, living with parents, stressing over every last penny etc What a waste of my 20s.

When we had kids we rented damp, undersized properties, being no fault evicted 3 times in 5 years. The house we brought for all that effort is 3 bed semi ex council house. We were bidding against BTL every time. It’s now even more unaffordable.

I do not feel proud that I was able to save the money, I feel robbed and truly sad for the next young family after us that will have to struggle even more.

There will be a point when enough people will have gone through similar experiences to cause a fundamental change. I don’t think many people realize how much anger is brewing.

@matt_outandabout you must be aware a 3 bed house at 130k is highly unusual. I could got not get studio flat within 50 miles of where I live. Sure I could pack up and move – but there are no jobs or family (childcare).

Your housing market is working, reasonable rent, small profit for the landlord, can buy a house after a few years saving – we are not talking about the same thing.

You raise a good point there – the excessive prices of South / South East is part of the issue.

We’re a crowded island, even more crowded in the S/SE with policies that still focus on jobs, economic activity and benefit within a couple of hours travel of London.

I’m of the view that to transform investment, jobs and infrastructure elsewhere could start to ‘reorganise’ house prices. I also think that’s why there’s so much resistance to such a change – MP’s, consultants and more who stand to personally lose out on expensive house prices in S/SE. Turkey’s voting for Christmas and all that.

I’m of the view that to transform investment, jobs and infrastructure elsewhere could start to ‘reorganise’ house prices.

Probably, but it’ll push prices up in other areas, not drop them significantly in the SE

We’re a crowded island,

We aren’t.  

Yes just look at what is happening in places like Manchester – lots of new housing sold to investors, locals priced out.

The market needs to be taken out of it. There is a gap opening up, my friends in their 40s tend to have multiple homes, those under 40, probably will never own now. These are the people that will ultimately force a change -hopefully peacefully.

We’re a crowded island,

We aren’t.

Brilliant, lets build a load of new towns in Scotland or mid wales where its not so crowded. That will solve it.

A uni mate got into BTL in a big way.

Ended up owning several streets of houses (all on the never-never, obviously). Reckoned he was going to be a huge property baron.

It all went tits up. He squandered his wife’s inheritance and ended up bankrupt – now lives in a rented house.

Hope that makes some of the landlord haters feel a bit better.

@Kryton57

We are 14th out of 195 countries on earth.
London and SE has nearly 50x the population density of Scotland, with England averaging 5x the population density of Scotland.
🤔

For the record I saved a 80k deposit over 12 years, working through uni, living with parents, stressing over every last penny etc What a waste of my 20s.

I’m not sure that’s any different from my parents generation, or the one between them & myself. Living at home, scraping money together for a deposit, getting married & moving into the family home.

My other halfs parents bought an old farming cottage with the floor collapsing, the roof leaking everywhere, with no money left to do any repair work. It’s just how it was, and still is IMO.

Buying a house isn’t easy. It never was.

Buying a house isn’t easy. It never was.

It’s even LESS easy nowadays though, all you need to do is look how much the house price to earnings ratio has skyrocketed. It is significantly harder for people to get on the property ladder now compared to 20/30/40 years ago.

Oh come on! Of course it’s different. The deposit is much larger, the mortgage many more times income, the mortgage term 30, even 40 years instead of 20 or 25. The average first time buyer age is much higher. The time to get a family home much much later. You need two incomes now FFS. Good luck trying to sort childcare.

Add the other obstacles thrown at them e.g uni debt it’s no wonder people give up and dare to enjoy an occasional avocado.

It is significantly harder for people to get on the property ladder now compared to 20/30/40 years ago.

Is it though, really? My parents were, when they bought their first house considered high earners, they still had to go through a lot of pain to get there. When I bought my first house there wasn’t really any pain or consideration.

Oh come on! Of course it’s different. The deposit is much larger, the mortgage many more times income, the mortgage term 30, even 40 years instead of 20 or 25

Not necessarily – we have shown real examples in this post of people able to buy houses for less than a price of a car, a £60k house with a £12k deposit & mortgage of less than £500 a month. Yes, if you want a nice, big house, in a nice area, then yes – a big deposit & a bigger mortgage over a longer term is more likely. My parents first house was a dump, in a area I wouldn’t want to live.

You need two incomes now FFS. Good luck trying to sort childcare.

You don’t NEED, you may want.

Add the other obstacles thrown at them e.g uni debt

Again, need & want. Going to the uni for the sake of it & expecting others to pick up the bill? I’m not sure other than a small % of people I know who went to Uni put their degree to any use whatsoever. Maybe the thought of getting into a silly amount of debt for it will encourage people to look at other options which they may be better suited to.

I’ve been on both sides – happily rented & happily bought. I am totally ambivalent to actually ‘owning’ a house. I would be just as happy renting again. Home ownership is not the god given right/utopia that some people make it out to be.

Is it though, really? My parents were, when they bought their first house considered high earners, they still had to go through a lot of pain to get there. When I bought my first house there wasn’t really any pain or consideration.

So you just ignore the fact about the house price to income ratio then? It’s empirically harder for people nowadays regardless of how many times you say “is it though?”

@hob nob but why are your aspirations so low?

Why should a family with two incomes have to struggle so much to afford a house. We had two kids in our bedroom for 2 years to help save, this is completely unnecessary as we could afford the mortgage payments on a much bigger house.

Why should we pay so much more to get better educated when this was never the case before? Uni debt is now charged at 6% interest, what’s your mortgage rate?

So you just ignore the fact about the house price to income ratio then? It’s empirically harder for people nowadays regardless of how many times you say “is it though?”

Google tells me the average UK salary in 1980 was £6000 & the average house price was £39,500. A ratio of 15%.

In 2019 the average salary was £36,311. The average house value – £234k. A ratio of 15%.

When you have a perfect track record of paying more monthly rent than the 20 year mortgage monthly repayments you are likely to have for a mortgage that will be approved, yet have slowly struggled to save a ~20% deposit during that time, you are left with no doubt the south east housing market (although this applies to many areass in the UK to some degree) is absolutely screwed.

@hob nob but why are your aspirations so low?

Who says they are? We are very fortunate that we could, if we wanted to, mortgage ourselves up to £1m+, personally I can’t think of anything worse than a noose like that around my neck. Therefore we have a mortgage that’s a fraction of it. To do so, we moved from the South East to the English/Welsh border.

Maybe, if having high aspirations is owning a £1.5m house in Winchester & all the trappings of that ‘lifestyle’, they are low.

So you just ignore the fact about the house price to income ratio then? It’s empirically harder for people nowadays regardless of how many times you say “is it though?”

THis wasn’t aimed at me, but while I accept that fact; remember how everything else has got better and cheaper.

My first proper job out of uni, I spent 1 months gross pay on a car. Over 5 years, about the same again on maintainence & repairs. Never left me stranded.

Recounted this to someone 15 years older than me, their first job, loan of 6 months salary to buy their first car. Broke constantly, total money pit.

Food is cheap and plentiful, with a number of supermarkets within easy reach of most people’s homes.

Inflation adjusted, what my grandparents paid for their landline phone would get you a new iphone on an unlimited contract these days.

Utilities in general are a much lower fraction of living costs.

Working hours are shorter, everything is designed for convenience, people have much more free time and disposable income compared to someone in the same situation a few decades ago.

IF you gave me the chance to go back in time to the 80’s, with no knowledge of the future, except about the housing market, would I do it? hell no.

In 2019 the average salary was £36,311.

Nope. You know the bit below the headline number? Might want to read that bit.

Must admit I thought the average wage figure of ~£28k was more ballpark in recent years, there’s so many jobs that are now only offered part-time and have been for some time, such as posties.

Who says they are? We are very fortunate that we could, if we wanted to, mortgage ourselves up to £1m+, personally I can’t think of anything worse than a noose like that around my neck. Therefore we have a mortgage that’s a fraction of it. To do so, we moved from the South East to the English/Welsh border.

So the solution once again is to move hundreds of miles away.

Maybe, if having high aspirations is owning a £1.5m house in Winchester & all the trappings of that ‘lifestyle’, they are low.

Ha! as if that is the conundrum. How about the aspiration to own a 3 bed semi detached house that used to be owned by the local authority.

So the solution once again is to move hundreds of miles away.

No, that was my solution. Winchester & surrounding areas is not exactly hilly, or fun if you like mountains & the great outdoors.

And the point being, it’s a choice. We could have chosen to spend half that on a nice house somewhere near to where we were, which would have been fine, if we didn’t want to live next to a forest, literally on our doorstep.

How about the aspiration to own a 3 bed semi detached house that used to be owned by the local authority.

Why not move somewhere where you can afford to do that? Or have bigger aspirations (as you put it) to earn more money to be able to afford it in an area where you want to live?

Not necessarily – we have shown real examples in this post of people able to buy houses for less than a price of a car, a £60k house with a £12k deposit & mortgage of less than £500 a month. Yes, if you want a nice, big house, in a nice area, then yes – a big deposit & a bigger mortgage over a longer term is more likely. My parents first house was a dump, in a area I wouldn’t want to live.

As of just now, on Rightmove there are 34,000 properties for sale in England/Scotland/Wales under 100k and 181,723 under 250k. (out of 437000 total properties).

Hobnob, your numbers look a bit orf.
Average wage in 1980 was around £6000
Average house price in 1980 was around £21000
You’ve used the average house price for the decade against the 1980 wage

1985 average house price 30k
1985 average wage 9.5k

1990 average house price 60k
1990 average wage 15k

Interest rates in the 80s were hefty though so percentage of wage spent on mortgage should also apply.

Why not move somewhere where you can afford to do that? Or have bigger aspirations (as you put it) to earn more money to be able to afford it in an area where you want to live?

Pesky things like jobs and childcare.

When I talk about aspiration I am not talking about personal wealth acquisition. It’s the (hardly lofty) aspiration to live and work in the same town. There is enough houses (hence you can rent) this is not the problem. Again, we could afford the mortgages payments – this is a choice being made with 5.5 million BTL landlords profiteering from a rigged market.

Quick search for 3 bed houses under 130k in my area shows 232 available – and not all shit-holes…

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION%5E6750&minBedrooms=3&maxPrice=130000&radius=10.0&propertyTypes=&includeSSTC=false&mustHave=&dontShow=&furnishTypes=&keywords=

…not in the Highlands of Scotland but in the middle of the country within easy reach of Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield – trains, airports and loads industry around.

I think a lot of peoples problems now is they don’t just want the house – they want the cars, the holidays, the tech, the nights out, the whole instagram lifestyle.

Fun game, I can get one boat:

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION%5E470&minBedrooms=3&maxPrice=130000&propertyTypes=&includeSSTC=false&mustHave=&dontShow=&furnishTypes=&keywords=

It is a nice boat though – great views! 🙂

ha! yeah.. I actually wanted to do this a few years ago, girlfriend was not keen.

I think a lot of peoples problems now is they don’t just want the house – they want the cars, the holidays, the tech, the nights out, the whole instagram lifestyle.

That’s ignorant and unfair.

People want at least some things, like a decent trip away – look at how many people on here are always on about T5s and trips to Morzine and £3k bikes. And is it fair that people have to sacrifice SO much just to get what others take for granted? When we’re talking about an essential? Sure, rich people are always going to have it easy, but is it fair that people who aren’t rich are in such a difficult position, forced to hand over most of their money to someone richer, when it’s a basic human need? Is it right that people like gr5604 have to sacrifice their 20s when others are enjoying life? Why should the poor have to make this choice?

Housing is one of the most egregious examples (in this country) of the boot of the rich on the neck of the poor. And it would be pretty easy to work towards fixing it – it’s a well known problem with lots of solutions.

For those quoting average salary vs average price – what we need is first time buyer prices vs salaries. Otherwise you’re just factoring in wealthy people up-sizing.