Sorry, not quite following you there.

Do what in a British winter? Use electric vehicles?

No, presumably use any vehicles.

Probably because we have no concept of winter readiness and blame the government when roads grind to a halt and folk are trapped in cars for hours at a time because they are ill equipped to deal with the conditions. We still think grit magically repels snow ffs.

Well, if we lived in a genuine winter country like Sweden we probably would. But we dont.

Sorry, I should have explained the air quotes on “winter”, something my girlfriend laughs at all the time.

It’s because in places like major cities, it never really gets super-cold or too snowy/icy to take a bike anywhere, let alone a four wheeled one like in the link. Over here, Stockholm is not as bad as some place further north, but still gets a lot of snow and cold temperatures. People _still_ cycle on normal bikes, even though it is -20 and there is rutted frozen ice on the ground.

As Squirrelking said though, we have a certain element of preparedness. Cars and bikes generally have winter tyres on (legal requirement for cars BTW) and people are prepared for it so life goes on.

I don’t see replacing last mile with electric as _the_solution, but I see it as being part of a solution. Reducing the number of vans and lorries travelling around and parking on the streets with something smaller and electric could help out a lot with air quality too and, in London at least, might make sense for companies that deliver inside the LEZ.

Well, if we lived in a genuine winter country like Sweden we probably would. But we dont.

people still believe that winter tires are only good for snow……

I think people will come around to electric once the costs become realistic – look at how many folk drive auto these days – 20 years ago that just wasnt a thing unless you really could not drive manual….. “MANUAL GEAR BOX MAKETH MAN” once they realise its actually better itll change.

people still believe that winter tires are only good for snow……

I’ve no idea what people believe they’re good for tbh.

I’ve used them in the past and currently have Agilis Crossclimates fitted. Coastal Scotland here, full winters not really needed. Actually,  only just fitted the Crossclimates,  im surprised how chunky but quiet they are. Certainly going to make exiting muddy wet event sites easier than the previous set.

We still dont live in a proper winter country, cool and damp is what we have.

I think people will come around to electric once the costs become realistic

Hopefully

I’m actually quite disappointed at the range to commercial EVs, looking around your lucky to get 200 out of a van. In a previous life in contract logistics the only vehicle that would have worked for is the site van that never left the compound.  Even the final mile vehicles were clocking up 200 miles on a regular basis which is a bit squeaky bum time getting back to the depots. And the vehicles that picked up from us would easily do 300 with the longest daily run being Banbury to Carlisle and back.

At least with city work where the ranges are more suitable itll cut out a lot of point of use pollution.

Probably because we have no concept of winter readiness and blame the government when roads grind to a halt

Every country is prepared for their normal winter and it’s the occasional exception that cocks everything up two or three times a year. We’re no different – mainly because the extra cost of dealing with that thing that happens a couple of times a year isn’t worth it.

People need to not go out in it though, that’s the stupid part.

I think people will come around to electric once the costs become realistic

I agree – most people just don’t care that much, they just want cars to get from A to B (look at the number of bland small NA petrol cars on the road), and these people when they get into an EV will go ‘oh this is nice and smooth and quiet’, get one, then just carry on as normal.

Even the final mile vehicles were clocking up 200 miles on a regular basis which is a bit squeaky bum time getting back to the depots. And the vehicles that picked up from us would easily do 300 with the longest daily run being Banbury to Carlisle and back.

Why couldn’t you stop and recharge?

Even in Stockholm, the temperature can get to -20 and the bikes and their drivers are out in it, with snow and ice on the ground. They use roads and cycle tracks and it works. Pleasetell me why DPD, DHL, Parcelfarce cannot do the same thing in the British “winter”.

Having spend a couple of winters in Helsinki, which may be a little drier and less volume of snow, and for the benefit of whoever’s not been to these places:

The roads and cyclepaths are gritted with small sharp hard gravel regularly which packs into the snow and gives plenty of traction – most cyclists weren’t on ice spikes and they were fine. It also didn’t thaw/freeze so there wasn’t much actual ice, and people just avoided whatever had seeped out of overflows and that. Snow tyres were mandatory and back then (15 years ago) everyone was on studs, which did wreck the roads but they just repaired them. Often the snow remained dry so it got crushed up by tyres and blew away with the draught from passing cars on faster roads – on slower roads it did get icy but it had the gravel packed into it so generally wasn’t that bad.

What makes things hard in the UK is a load of wet slippery snow all at once. And even if your delivery van has chains or winter tyres there are too many people who don’t and head out anyway and get stuck. Loads of people here simply have no idea that snow is slippery and affects your ability to drive. So they get stuck and it blocks roads.

-20C snow is much gripper than -1C snow as I’m sure Willard knows.

Yup, a lot of the more rural driving over here is on “winter roads” which are basically packed snow and ice, maybe with a bit of grit on. It works well and as long as you think about your driving, is just like driving on a normal road.

Salt is not used for the most part. Because it doesn’t really work in extreme cold and can make things worse.

Why couldn’t you stop and recharge?

Are you just out for a troll today. It’s not a holiday it’s a commercial operation. Downtime is a swear word.

As above, there isnt (wasnt) time, too much economic (competitor) pressure to deliver x number in y hours.

And, for clarity,  this was 11 years ago. So nowhere to really charge anyway.

Even today youd need to plan in a 100% guaranteed free fast charging point midway through the day for the final mile drivers as opposed to just knowing you’ve a full day of fuel. And it’s not like online shopping drivers who have relatively compact patches,  we were handling warranty returns with large delivery patches so using the same charging point each day wouldn’t be an option. The trunk drivers could do this if the ranges improved enough, but larger Van’s have even worse range.

For it to really work as things stand, you need enough high speed chargers for you and your competitors to use at lunchtime in random locations with guaranteed availability.  And LWB Van’s with 300+ mile real world range for the trunks.

it’s a commercial operation. Downtime is a swear word.

Of all the problems to surmount I feel like this should be pretty far down the list.

This is why legislation and government action is crucial – cos then everyone has to do it and no-one loses business.

For it to really work as things stand, you need enough high speed chargers for you and your competitors to use at lunchtime in random locations with guaranteed availability.

It’s coming.

I do wonder whether I’ll live to see the day of ‘road restoration societies’ restoring old roads for petrol cars that aren’t allowed on the national electric vehicle network. Just like the canal restoration groups and steam railway preservation societies…………..

It’s coming

For chargers, I doubt it. I think enough range for a days work is more likely with charging taking place end of the working day.

Of all the problems to surmount I feel like this should be pretty far down the list.

And yet it’s not and never has been. Your talking about needing more assets(vans)

Many courier trunk vehicles are 24/7 operation with 3 shifts of drivers keeping that thing moving. – some of them have long range fuel tanks even at that 600mile + range compared to the standard vans 300…. Based on parcel force vehicle specs.

Sounds like we will just have to get used to deliverys taking a day or 2 longer.,or we could have grouped storage nodes of like type equipment where users could travel too at their leisure and collect…..

Sounds like we will just have to get used to deliverys taking a day or 2 longer.,or we could have grouped storage nodes of like type equipment where users could travel too at their leisure and collect…..

sooooo… having eliminated the need for the personal vehicle (or the second household vehicle) because you commute by public transport, ebike, or virtually; and any large items and other things like the weekly shop are delivered to your door, we now need a vehicle to go to do my click and collect?

it’s a commercial operation. Downtime is a swear word.

exactly, you’ll be paying 15-20% more labour for the same amount of delivery/working time, even if your van is doing 1 shift per day – so all other costs are about the same.

even more of an issue when we are talking constant use vehicles, more of them will be required.

I’m actually quite disappointed at the range to commercial EVs, looking around your lucky to get 200 out of a van.

This is the big issue for even small commercial electric vehicles. If you have a good range your payload disappears.

So how does Tesla do it? They seem to have a huge range and a battery pack that does not completely destroy either the boot of the passenger compartment. Is it really not possible that a Transporter/crafter could not do this?

Is it really not possible that a Transporter/crafter could not do this?

Well yes. Teslas are very aero, and vans by their nature are not. The aero thing is arguably a bigger issue with EVs than ICEs, because whilst with all vehicles the air resistance is much more at higher speeds, this is somewhat countered in ICEs by the fact that at lower speeds and particularly town driving they are less efficient. So the optimum is somewhere in the middle. With EVs this isn’t the case so it’s basically all about the aero, and this is why vans are such a problem.

Having said that, comparing cars and vans in ICE and EV form gives similar results. A Model 3 sized efficient car might do 65mpg on a long run, a van might do 35.

sooooo… having eliminated the need for the personal vehicle (or the second household vehicle) because you commute by public transport, ebike, or virtually; and any large items and other things like the weekly shop are delivered to your door, we now need a vehicle to go to do my click and collect?

utopia has problems. who knew.

you’ll be paying 15-20% more labour

Is that cheaper or more expensive than 2 vans? Of course doesn’t work for many use cases.

It’s possible that the replaceable battery idea would work for commercial vehicles where it doesn’t for cars. It does require more batteries to be made though.

So how does Tesla do it? They seem to have a huge range and a battery pack that does not completely destroy either the boot of the passenger compartment

a Model S for example weighs as much as my XLWB Van empty .

Seems they are subject to the same rules of physics as everyone else.

Oh you didn’t live in a rural location did you? The only bus was once a day after everyone was at work that returned well before work finished.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Sorry, but you’re so wrong it’s just funny.

I grew up in rural North Wales. Going to a town to shop at Iceland and stock up the freezer was considered an adventure. Fruit and veg was bought off the back of a lorry (an old yellow British Telecom van to be precise).

Getting to school involved a “Taxi”, which was actually an enterprising local farmer in a VW Passat cramming 6 kids in the back.

Tell me again how rural life nececitates a 6 car household 😂

Tell me again how rural life nececitates a 6 car household 😂

Well for one. Not breaking the law and putting kids safety at risk….

We used to be a 1 car family growing up. That was mum didn’t even have a license.

It was pretty shit walking 3 miles in the pishing rain on a Saturday to go to the shops – hence I cycled everywhere come time – even with the best rose specs I’m not really fancying going back to having to walk to the shops and worse…back with the weeks shopping.

Well for one. Not breaking the law and putting kids safety at risk….

Blame the council for that one. Presumably he underbid a minibus or multiple licenced taxis.

The point wasn’t about seatbelts anyway. It was a rebuttal that dealing with loweing GHG emissions would force us back to the 1950s when that clearly isn’t the case when the 2+ car household wasn’t a thing untill very recently.

Many courier trunk vehicles are 24/7 operation with 3 shifts of drivers keeping that thing moving. – some of them have long range fuel tanks even at that 600mile + range compared to the standard vans 300…. Based on parcel force vehicle specs.

some companies might be like this, but the average LCV travels 12,800 miles a year (source -> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/connect/small-business/operations-and-logistics/renault/how-many-miles-do-vans-clock-up/ ). assuming 240 working days for an owner/driver, that’s 54 miles a day. I’m sure some companies are doing more, but with averages this low, range requirements in excess of 200 miles is the exception not the rule.

Dont doubt it, your average van is certainly not doing daily 500 mile round trips. Although that is a rather heavy handed advert and not what I’d use as a source.

The issue with an average like that is there will be plenty vans that do no miles or 5-10 a day like many sole traders skewing it or vans like mine that havnt moved between the last two Mots……that still fall into the lcv cat.

Not a great statistic.

commercial operators are desperate to move to EV vans and lorries! no bad press from tailpipe emissions and masisvely reduced running costs and servicing. The odd 20 min fast charge here and there whilst the driver has his lunch is no issue whatso ever if your cost per mile has just gone down by 75% !!!

The issue with an average like that is there will be plenty vans that do no miles or 5-10 a day like many sole traders skewing it or vans like mine that havnt moved between the last two Mots……that still fall into the lcv cat.

not denying this but even your average amazon\hermes van is well under 150 miles per day – the one in my village seems to stop every 5 doors, so there really isn’t scope for massive milage on those either.

The odd 20 min fast charge here and there whilst the driver has his lunch is no issue whatso ever if your cost per mile has just gone down by 75% !!!

Good point.

We never used to see Amazon branded vans by us – now we do, and they are all electric. One would assume this isn’t just done for PR reasons. They also don’t have a noise generator on them so they are pretty scary at times.

Just to answer Molegrips & thisisnotaspoon
Rural Gloucestershire in 1984 yep I was the idiot with 2 cars just started working covering an area from Plymouth to Birmingham including south Wales previously a student with a 15mile commute did it on a bike a fair few times but not fun at all.
Sister at college 22 miles in the other direction, father mostly in Bristol 20 miles away, mother working at an adult training centre 18 miles in the opposite direction to him, grandfather with an old P4 Rover did about 200miles a year.
Just to put it into context all cars we owned were considered shitboxes by that time.

To the OP’s original question in the thread headline: in time they will become as curious as steam engines. Eventually an indulgence and hobby for fans and the wealthy.

I expect that is a long time away, it took us 100 years of them to get to now. Likely at least another 50 or so to put them behind us.

Well, if we lived in a genuine winter country like Sweden we probably would. But we dont.

I was in Oslo on the first day of winter (first snow), a few years back.

It was as chaotic as getting snow in any UK city – only needed one person without winter tyres and/or skills to bring it all to a halt.