VW help. Engine fault and poss legal.

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  • VW help. Engine fault and poss legal.
  • jonk
    Member

    Probably the EGR cooler.

    chris36860
    Member

    Somebody mentioned that, but the coolant is coming out of the expansion bottle. It’s visable running down the sides and under the bottle. Could the cooler cause that or would a faultly cooler leak itself?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Is there a blockage somewhere then perhaps?

    Is the engine temperature normal before its bouts of incontinence, or is it boiling its knackers off?

    chris36860
    Member

    No overheating what so ever. We drove to the Lakes a few weeks back 500miles and water temp was spot on along with oil temp. We had to stop 4 times to fill up with coolant. When it comes out, it’s hot but no where near boiling. I can easily put my hand on the bottle. According to VW, no blockage either!

    Strange. One classic symptom of a head gasket failure is a pressurisation of the cooling system. I had a car years ago where the expansion bottle blew up like a ballon – was head gasket leaking and pressurising the cooling system – no oil in the water or water in the oil as the HG actually sealed when the engine was running on, but the pressure in the cylinders opened up the HG failure and leaked one-way into the cooling system when. How have they ruled out HG failure?

    One of your biggest mistakes is to trust the VW dealer. My experience of dealers is not great, you’re far better off with a good independent mechanic who will actually use their brains and good old fashioned knowledge to trace faults. Maybe seek a second opinion? Your case will be stronger if you can go to them with a confirmed fault that they missed.

    chris36860
    Member

    Hi Guys, I’ll try and make this brief. Back in Feb I brought a 2013(DEC) VW Golf Mark 7 GTD DSG with 60k on the clock. It was brought privately, but it still had a 12 month Das Welt auto VW warranty on it.

    Over the next 2 weeks, we had to add 5 pints of coolant to it and we started to see a pattern. Driving locally around town, its fine. Get it on a motorway for any period and it throws its coolant out of the bottle and all over the engine. In total, it’s spent 5 weeks with VW and their findings have been, No fault found. We have changed the expansion bottle, we have changed the water pump and the last one was that the expansion cap was the wrong one and the correct one is now fitted. That was last week and today my wife was stranded as it did it again and she couldn’t get the cap off to add more coolant.

    The warrany paid for all previous works, but Our VW garage has hinted that the warranty won’t pay anymore as they have already paid out on that fault. Now, that’s not my problem, as it was them who diagnosed the fault incorrectly.

    Tomorrow (Monday) morning I’m going to call VW UK and see what they say and then visit our VW garage. I’m fuming at the moment and it’s a good job they are closed!

    My feelings are that it’s either a crack in the block/head or the head gasket, but they seem to think I’m wrong.

    Does anybody know leagally where I stand with any of this or what is wrong with my car?? We love it car, but it’s useless if we can’t drive it far.

    chris36860
    Member

    Wobbliscott – that’s exactly what I think is happening. I’ve spent 20 years dealing with pressurised heating systems, which are miles away from cars, but work in a very similar way with similar components. I did tell them this on its first visit, but I was told that VW HGs don’t go!!

    When we last collected the car, the service lady said that it’s a good job the head of not faulty as they can’t remove the head in shop and would need to send it away. I think they are trying everything else first before heading down that route.

    We have used a independent VW garage before and I spoke to them after the water pump was changed and they laughed. They said it’s pretty much unheard of, but sounds like the HG!!

    timber
    Member

    Suggest they up the parts lottery to a new engine. They are working to the book and costs rather than diagnosing.

    My boss hasn’t had these issues with Kia, they rebuilt his gearbox, no hesitation, with barely 2 months of the 7 year warranty left.

    Not sure if this helps, but I had a 2012 yeti that started to use a huge amount of coolant. I know very little about cars, and it was a company vehicle, so I didn’t inspect the engine, but I didn’t notice it leaking (although thinking back it must have been somewhere).

    Like yours, it didn’t overheat, just the coolant light coming on, again mostly on motorway driving.

    Mine was out of warranty (milage) but went into the local garage, they said EGR and it cost about £1500 I think.

    However the problem just got worse, so work got rid of it. As I understand they thought it could have been a ‘porous’ head. I don’t know why (or what that really means), but I think it was a known fault on VW forums.

    Good luck.

    chris36860
    Member

    Cheers flower power, yes, porous heads are a problem with VW, but the Coolant goes internally into the engine. Ours is coming out externally. VW said they had a porous car in the same time as ours.

    oldnpastit
    Member

    Have they done an engine compression test?

    chris36860
    Member

    Oldnpastit – not that I know of, but they don’t tell me much when we lick the car up. It’s more of a ‘it’s all fixed’ and that’s it. I’ll ask tomorrow when I go in.

    pacerc200
    Member

    The egr system is a different design on the mk 7 to the earlier ones that gave/are giving trouble, my first instinct would be a water pump as the “shutters” that close off the pump vanes are prone to sticking closed but this has already been replaced? There are various test procedures with video instructions for the dealers to follow available to them for cooling system issues. If these cooling system circuits aren’t bled properly with the diag system it can cause big issues. Replaced a few intake manifolds that include the charge air cooler due to coolant loss, in the hoses above these there are one way valves that if not installed correctly will cause issues.
    You’ve reported an issue to the dealer within the warranty period, it’s the dealers duty to repair this issue under warranty guidelines regardless of time/cost.

    trail_rat
    Member

    I’d be suggesting that the warrenty may have paid to correct the fault but the dealer hasn’t corrected the fault. Ball back in their court and make the warrenty aware of this at the same time.

    As for vw head gaskets not going ….pull the other one. They go just like all others.

    chris36860
    Member

    They have told the water pump was replaced, but being a warranty job, no paperwork was handed to me. I will confirm tomorrow with the service manager. I’m gutted as the car would be amazing if it didn’t drink water like me on a 50k ride!!

    Pacerc200- you don’t work at a south coast VW garage do you??? You seem to know more than all the mechanics at our local VW branch put together!! They did manage to replace a non working speaker correctly tho!!

    argoose
    Member

    have you thought about k seal. Heard good things

    trail_rat
    Member

    Argoose I assume your being sarcastic.

    Don’t put k seal near your engine op. That’s a bodge for getting it running to take the the scrap yard…..that and the unsuspecting public that want to play mechanic. Usually always ends badly

    oldnpastit
    Member

    have you thought about k seal. Heard good things

    If you go down that route, beware of reading the 1-star reviews on Amazon, it’ll put you right off….

    chris36860
    Member

    Definitely not going down the ‘bodge’ route on a 15k car. It’s a fault than can be fixed, I just need to find the right VW garage to fix it! Oh, and the warranty to pay for it!

    Thanks guys

    eruptron
    Member

    pacerc200
    What are the thermostats like on these? Electronic control? Is it possible the thermostat is faulty or the control is doing something funky and closing the stat when it should be open.
    chris36860
    Have they changed the thermostat?

    chris36860
    Member

    Again, not that I know of. Would that cause overheating or could a closed thermostat cause a increase in pressure? I’ve never seen the coolant blow, but have seen it when it’s 10mm from the top of the expansion bottle and it’s not that hot. It’s like it’s over pressurising somehow hence my stab in the dark at the HG or crack.

    pacerc200
    Member

    A bit too far away to be of practical help.

    adscatt
    Member

    There isn’t a ‘traditional’ thermostat on that engine, it’s a valve block that allows coolant to flow to different circuits at different times hence it needing bleeding using the diagnostic equipment. Lots of coolant pumps have been replaced for similar symptoms as they have an electronically controlled shutter on them to allow the flow/ heat build up to be controlled (as said above). Get a break down of all work carried out, they’ve incorrectly diagnosed it so they need to fix it, also a call to VW customer care should help.

    stuey
    Member

    We had a porous head that only vented exhaust gas into the coolant when hard motorway cruising.
    When it was ‘pushing’ water out of expansion tank the cabin heater started to run cold(?)

    adscatt
    Member

    There’s also a possibility that there is a bag within the expansion bottle that bursts and can cause blockages within the cooling system, see if your expansion bottle has ‘MIT Silica’ stamped on it.

    chris36860
    Member

    Stuey – Yes, exactly that. When the car went in, we complained of it taking ages to get any heat out of the blowers and I meant 20miles or so. On our trip to the lakes earlier this year, we left home at 5am and we covered 100miles with freezing cold air being blown out all the way. I stopped and topped up coolant and it went hot straight away. On the way home, the opposite happens. The cabin heating was sooo hot, that the air burnt my wife’s hand. We could not turn it off. The fan was turned to off and we tried aircin on full. The only way to stop it was to pull over and stop the engine for 20mins. Vw said this was not connected, but couldn’t find a fault with in the heating system.

    5lab
    Member

    I had a similar problem on an old volvo years ago. Turned out it had slight rad damage, and when the radiator got really hot the expansion of material/pressure opened a small gap in the seam of one of the fins, water pissed out then it closed up before it was cold enough to inspect.

    That aside, get some UV dye in the system (see ebay, it’s about a fiver), and a UV torch. Drive as normal till the level drops, then use the torch to find where the waters coming out. If there’s nothing showing, it’s probably internal (ie hg, pourus head)

    muckytee
    Member

    If it’s spitting it’s coolant out and the coolant temperature gauge is showing a normal 80-90 degrees, it’s the head gasket as it is obviously not overheating, and the head gasket is the only place pressure from the cylinders can get into the cooling system. VW’s don’t blow head gaskets.. what a silly thing to say.

    Marko
    Member

    I’m going for a micro crack in the head.

    I’ve had this several times on old PSA diesel engines and GM diesel. Drive around town all day with no issues, hit the motorway and whoosh coolant circuit pressurised, but not overheated.

    Assuming all the other issues noted above are not the problem a replacement cylinder head will fix it.

    Lots of good advice above BTW. STW for the win!

    Hth
    Marko

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    If it’s spitting it’s coolant out and the coolant temperature gauge is showing a normal 80-90 degrees, it’s the head gasket as it is obviously not overheating,

    But if the water pump is not working properly, the coolant could be boiling in parts of the block but not getting to the temp sensor? But I guess then you’d see the temp gague not registering a normal warmup…

    Premier Icon allfankledup
    Subscriber

    In my experience – if you have a garage giving you grief over a warranty then call trading standards.

    They were v. influential with a local merc dealer…

    lotsroad
    Member

    This is classic poor service. They have failed to diagnose the fault correctly and you are therefore having to run around trying to figure out the diagnosis yourself. This is totally unacceptable.
    I recently had a dispute with a dealer and eventually got a full refund, so although I’m not a lawyer I have some experience.
    You have a contract with the sellers and that contract is regulated by law. They are under an obligation to provide you with a vehicle that is fit for
    purpose which it clearly isn’t. Further you have an additional warranty.
    They absolutely must fix this problem. You can either go and see a lawyer and get them to send them a letter. Or you can do a bit of research, basically say if they don’t fix it you will pursue a claim through the small claims court, which will almost certainly find in your favour.
    Garages (and most businesses/organisations) will keep saying no, no, no, until you show them a piece of artillery and the ammunition next to it. Then suddenly they remember their obligations under the law and its yes, yes yes.
    Do you have legal expenses cover/helpline on either your house insurance/car insurance/union membership whatever.
    It’s ridiculous that you are having to come on a forum and do their work for them. They are paid to diagnose faults on vehicles and remedy them.
    YOur alternative is to to take it to another garage and then sue them for the costs, but I’d be cautious about this as it places you at risk. Alternatively take it to a competent, authorised garage that doesn;t have a vested interest and just get a diagnosis in writing.(AA? RAC? BMW dealers?) Then use this as leverage. YOu could then seek to recover those diagnosic costs in the County Court, or just suck it up as £100 or so down the drain, along with your coolant ha ha.
    I suspect VW UK will also try to fob you off unless you up the ante.

    lotsroad
    Member

    Aah, just re-read the detail and see you bought this privately, which changes things a bit. Nonetheless, the contract is with the warranty provider so the same principle holds. NOte it seems bizarre that they are ‘not giving you receipts for the water pump’ because its a ‘warranty job’. Very irregular.
    My general impression is that warranty claims are the number one source of conflict between customers and dealers: I was in my local Vauxhall dealers the other day and a guy was virtually screaming becuase he’d paid top dollar for a used car with top dollar warranty, that didn’t actually cover the Really Expensive Thing that had just gone wrong.
    I think basically you are being bullshitted by the garage and need a second expert, independent opinion.

    Premier Icon letmetalktomark
    Subscriber

    Re the receipts …… I’m sure I’ve always gotten a receipt for warranty work ( fortunately minor) when carried out. They’ve tended just to be a normal invoice zero’d re cost. Without them how are you supposed to prove the work has been done?

    chris36860
    Member

    Just had a meeting with the service and customer service managers, and they don’t have a clue what is wrong with my engine. The service manager was starting to get a little angry that I asked to see him. He became all defensive saying that they tested it fully and it was fixed, so they had done everything and that any more investigation work was to be charged to me.

    I mentioned the porous head, but they told me that it was impossible as the coolant would leak internally and it would happen all the time and not just on motorway trips. They want to remove the head, but at my expense if they don’t find anything. That’s 8hrs at what? £90/hr??

    Apparently, the head test is carried out cold, so it wouldn’t show our fault anyway.

    I called VW UK and they are investigating what is going on.

    Fingers crossed!!

    mc
    Member

    I’ve got a vehicle with similar symptoms, which has turned into an on going saga. In my defence, looking at the history, it’s spent the past year being bumped around the country with 4 other garages failing to fix it.

    In order for coolant to be forced out the header tank in big quantities, there has to be an airlock, sufficient in size that the bleed lines can’t handle it. If the system is bled correctly, and bleed lines are doing their job, any air* should make it’s way to the header tank, and in the case of over-pressurisation, the air gets vented out the cap.
    The only way for coolant to get vented out, is if it’s physically forced up high enough in the system, so it reaches the cap. For that to happen you need an airlock at a high point in the system, that doesn’t get vented. Instead it expands, forcing the coolant down in whatever high spot (typically the cylinder head area), and back into the header tank where after the air in the header tank has vented, the water then gets vented.
    At the basic level, only three things that can cause that. A blocked bleed line, which means even a small air pocket will gradually build up, to the point it gets hot enough/big enough to cause a problem, overheating causing a steam pocket, or a source of air that the bleed line can’t handle.

    A blocked bleed line in itself is rarely a problem, but is a simple check. It’s most noticeable if there a head gasket has a slight blow, which leads to an air pocket building up, to the point it then causes an overheated problem. It’s worth noting a head gasket with a very slight blow could run for a very long time before becoming a problem, as long as the bleed lines / venting system can handle it.

    Overheating can be a strange thing to diagnose. All it takes is some localised overheating, which depending on temp sensor location, may not be detected. Lack of flow through an EGR cooler can cause it to boil water, yet won’t show on the temp gauge.

    The too much air problem on a car would typically be a badly failed head gasket, or an EGR cooler.

    Now combine all that with electronic coolant distribution, electrically augmented thermostats, switchable water pumps, electric supplementary water pumps, and you might understand why it can be hard to actually diagnose the real problem.

    However, ultimately there is still a problem with the OP’s car, and the dealer will have the backup of the VW’s own tech support for such problem vehicles. But then that involves somebody within the dealer actually being willing to contact them…

    *I use the term air, but it could be air, steam, or combustion gases, depending on the actual problem.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    They want to remove the head, but at my expense if they don’t find anything.

    I fail to see how their inability to diagnose a fault is your problem.

    legend
    Member

    chris36860 – Member

    Just had a meeting with the service and customer service managers, and they don’t have a clue what is wrong with my engine. The service manager was starting to get a little angry that I asked to see him. He became all defensive saying that they tested it fully and it was fixed, so they had done everything and that any more investigation work was to be charged to me.

    I mentioned the porous head, but they told me that it was impossible as the coolant would leak internally and it would happen all the time and not just on motorway trips. They want to remove the head, but at my expense if they don’t find anything. That’s 8hrs at what? £90/hr??

    I assume you laughed in their face around that point? Sounds like they’re backing out because it’s a bit hard. Poor wee lambs

    lotsroad
    Member

    Like I said, time to lawyer up I think. It’s their job to diagnose and fix problems, not yours. If they don’t know, that’s their problem, not yours. Where is the warranty company in all this?

    My VW Vento TDI did something very similar to this and it was found to be a warped head in the end. It was blowing out coolant from the expansion tank on motorway runs. It didn’t fail a cylinder pressure test, and didn’t end up with any emulsified oil.

    I think it was down to a blocked injector causing a hotspot. It still wasn’t running quite right after the head was back on, so the injectors went away for a clean and pop test. It was good again after that. If the OP’s car was second hand then it may have been fed supermarket fuel it’s whole life, and never had any injector cleaner through it. I hadn’t been using any cleaners (injector or turbo) in mine before, but do now. If nothing else, they make the car go like stink for a tank full of fuel!

    Premier Icon notmyrealname
    Subscriber

    Speak to Citizens Advice and they will be able to point you in the right direction.

    I’ve had something similar years ago with a car that had a fault and was under manufacturers warranty and they wouldn’t fix it despite being aware of the fault. After a couple of letters and some assistance by CAB they backed down and got it sorted.

    If you were to take them to small claims I’d imagine that they’d get laughed out of the place trying to argue it. It dumps coolant out when you’re driving, it’s not meant to therefore it’s faulty. Once they admit that they’ll not have much option other than to fix it or refund you I wouldn’t think.

    Premier Icon joebristol
    Subscriber

    Best to check the details of your warranty. The last one I had from a Ford dealer covered the cost of works to repair any faults, but didn’t covers costs to diagnose them…..

    Premier Icon ampthill
    Subscriber

    Best to check the details of your warranty. The last one I had from a Ford dealer covered the cost of works to repair any faults, but didn’t covers costs to diagnose them…..

    Sadly this. A warranty will have specific terms. It is unlikely that it says “do whatever it takes to make the vehicle work”

    I hope that the terms of the VW warranty cover what you need

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    That sounds more like one of the “free warranties” you get with a second hand car purchase that aren’t worth the paper they’re written on. A manufacturer’s warranty absolutely should.

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