I don’t pretend to understand the USA’s laws, prejudices and diverse cultures and like many Europeans I’m mystified by their gun laws, but the appearance of groups of white vigilantes toting assault rifles and flak jackets in Ferguson where the black-led protests have been taking place is a step in the uber-wierd.

BBC article here

As a starting point,I find it bizarre (by our standards) that these guys can roam the streets, in plain view of police…I’m guessing they are breaking no laws?

Does the average american feel this is a totally screwed up situation – or is it just part of the norm?

Many Some feel that the militia is all that saves them [ the people] from the tyranny of their own government and each time the “constitution” is threatened they respond. In this case I think they think that restricting the presence of guns in a simmering rio breaches their constitutional rights hence they have acted.

I wish i was making that up and its very hard to see how this helps in the current situation.

They are bonkers, simple as that.

It is really odd. I thought it’d be an unconcealed arms thing (in states where you’re not allowed to concealed carry, some folks have responded by carrying long arms openly, which is simultaneously a brilliant troll and batshit mental). It seems kind of connected though. They could really do with signing up a couple of black dudes!

The law about “not confiscating weapons in times of emergency” mentioned only applies to legal use, which this doesn’t look like- Missouri seems to have pretty wide-open purchase, use and posession laws but for open carry it is:

Any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, or a valid concealed carry permit, and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, may briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self defense.

Which obviously isn’t what they’re doing.

As Junkie said, a vocal minority believe that armed citizens are all that prevent ‘the government’ from running roughshod over them.
The constant harking back to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is just nonsense and misdirection.

The armed idiots aren’t doing anything illegal. Here in Virginia it is quite legal to open carry a weapon, it’s just that civilized people tend not to do it everywhere they go.

Yes, it is messed up.

I’m sure if it were a bunch of black guys wandering around the streets with semi-automatic assault rifles, the police would be displaying the same relaxed, ambivilant attitude, and under no circumstances would they immediately shoot them all in the head

I think America, like a lot of countries, is a slave to it’s recent history and it’s mythology. The Civil War still looms pretty hard over it’s politics and the way it views it’s self. throw into that the founding myth of “Brave single minded folk breaking the yoke of tyranny” (in the form of Aristocracy, religious intolerance) and a constitution that enshrines and re-enforces the “Look after yourself don’t trust any-one, say nothing” mantra.

Throw in dysfunctional politics, Corporations that are all consuming and over-represented, and seemingly intransigent, and self serving. Declining standards of living… And you end up with a vast powerful country full of folk that are confused, scared, run down, and coming to the realisation that the good times are probably behind them…

Americans killing other Americans with guns is something that we really shouldn’t waste any time on. Until they can see that their obsession with the right to carry arms, and the lack of education/prospects/hope in the underclass, then nothing is going to move on.

It would be better to just arm more of them to be honest, it won’t alter the outcome, just speed up the process.

The armed idiots aren’t doing anything illegal. Here in Virginia it is quite legal to open carry a weapon, it’s just that civilized people tend not to do it everywhere they go.

And black people know they’re likely to get shot by police if they open carry (or carry a toy gun, or don’t carry a gun at all, as the case may be).

The police are out of control IMO

They held down a woman in a car park, spread her legs and then inserted a hand into her.

It’s not the first time either, same thing happened to two women at the side of a freeway not long ago.

Excellent sweeping generalisation there mrmoofo, well done. Americans in favour of increased gun control and greater social mobility will be delighted.

Europe and parts of South America are fast looking like the only islands of normality in the world.

For a bit of context on the level of gun violence in bad neighbourhoods.

I was in Chicago a couple of weeks ago, was heading to the science and industry museum on Sunday morning. I’d told mrsmidlife who was navigating to take us downtown then back south along the lakeshore, but she ignored me and we duly exited the interstate to cut across the southside.

Right at the end of the ramp there were four patrol cars, lights going, officers out of their cars and hands on guns, I told her to reroute us and get us back on the motorway, but there wasn’t an easy way for ten blocks so we headed on. Every street corner had at least one police car, some up to six, with loads of officers and people milling around, very scary atmosphere. This continued all the way(2 miles?) until we got to the museum and parked up in the underground car park. All the while we’re keeping the doors locked and the windows up.

When we get back that evening we look at the paper to see what’s going on, it didn’t make the frontpage but: 3 men dead, at least 16 people hurt in shootings

And the following weekend: 3 killed, 12 hurt in Chicago weekend shootings

And this weekend:Weekend shooting toll in city: 2 killed, 43 wounded

We were staying with relatives in the suburbs twenty five miles away. People weren’t locking houses or cars or bikes. Completely different world.

If you really want to read something that will make you think the ‘USA gone mad’, try this little lot about the Maricopa County Sherriff (pop. approx. 4m).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

The US could well be on a long-term path to racial civil war.
There are so many guns floating around the country and plenty of agitators ready and willing to stoke the tension.

As a starting point,I find it bizarre (by our standards) that these guys can roam the streets, in plain view of police…I’m guessing they are breaking no laws?

I watched a brilliant YT video a little while back. Some young lad had decided to walk down the street with an assault rifle* because he could, essentially to troll people. A bit like what some people do over here with a bike. IIRC, the state had just passed some open carry law or other.

Inevitably, the police arrived and asked what he was up to. “I’m exercising my right to carry, officer,” he says, in the manner of someone who’s spent a week preparing for an argument of their own devising.

The cop basically replies with “that’s fine, but it’d be nice if you could be a bit more considerate as people don’t know that and it makes them nervous. But if you want, we run a gun club, we can teach you to use it properly and safely?” The wave of disappointment from our hero is palpable.

(* – well, some huge gun or other, I’m no expert)

The Oathkeepers are kind of a complex bunch and not your usual wingnuts. Some are full blown conspiracy theorists, others far more measured. At times, they’ve apparently been welcomed in Ferguson and at other times they’ve been asked to leave.

Europe and parts of South America are fast looking like the only islands of normality in the world.

Americans killing other Americans with guns is something that we really shouldn’t waste any time on. Until they can see that their obsession with the right to carry arms, and the lack of education/prospects/hope in the underclass, then nothing is going to move on.

It would be better to just arm more of them to be honest, it won’t alter the outcome, just speed up the process.

See, this is where you’re just sounding ignorant.

A healthy majority of people in the USA are in favor of more gun control, the trouble is they’re split either side of the political divide, so if a Democrat stood up and said they wanted to amend the constitution, the gun lobby would throw money at the Republicans and vice versa. So it can’t ever be an election winner.

The opposite of Scottish independence, where 45% vote for it (a minority) but they all vote fort he same party, and therefore you can win an election on that and a few liberal/left promises.

TooTall – Member

The armed idiots aren’t doing anything illegal.

Kinda looks like they are tbh. IANALIM but their gun code seems pretty straightforward.

Bunch of nutters especially as they are called Oathkeepers. Just last night I was watching an episode of Game of Thrones where a sword was given the name Oathkeeper. Says it all really when they name themselves after Game of Thones. It really is only a matter of time until a ton of these guys go on some rampage. You really do have to wonder what would have to happen in the US before they changed their gun laws!

In my last few visits to America it seems that the word compromise has been made redundant. Opinion or the opinions that make the news are so polarised that the middle ground has been vacated.

Would love to know what the Fox News line is on the “Oath Keepers”

People like Rush Limbaugh Michael Savage and Bill O Reilly will be praising them as heroes.

A healthy majority of people in the USA are in favor of more gun control,

It’s broadly irrelevant what anyone is or isn’t in favour of. The horse has bolted.

In the US, guns have been freely available for ever. Any bans or controls now would be near impossible to implement simply due to the sheer number of firearms in circulation; it’d be like trying to ban cans of beans.

Over here, gun crime is lower because it’s relatively difficult to actually get your hands on a gun in the first place. I don’t doubt that it could be done if you knew the right people and were determined / rich enough, but you couldn’t just pop down to ASDA for a loaf of bread, two pints of milk and a sub-machine gun.

The “right to bear arms” is a one way street I fear.

I think America, like a lot of countries, is a slave to it’s recent history and it’s mythology. The Civil War still looms pretty hard over it’s politics and the way it views it’s self. throw into that the founding myth of “Brave single minded folk breaking the yoke of tyranny” (in the form of Aristocracy, religious intolerance) and a constitution that enshrines and re-enforces the “Look after yourself don’t trust any-one, say nothing” mantra.

Throw in dysfunctional politics, Corporations that are all consuming and over-represented, and seemingly intransigent, and self serving. Declining standards of living… And you end up with a vast powerful country full of folk that are confused, scared, run down, and coming to the realisation that the good times are probably behind them…

This. My brother lives in Michigan, married to a completely batty American and often emails me pondering the weirdness of Americans. He reckons the Wild West and the pioneering days are not far from Americans’ minds, which explains the “waggon train” defensive mentality and the mistrust of authority. Even he dreams of abandoning it all, buying some land in Arizona and becoming a survivalist, although he doesn’t seem to reaslise that at 53 the effort of living from a smallholding would kill him, especially as he’s overweight and unfit. (“It’s the hormones in the meat!”)

On that point, he is always amazed at the readiness of the American health system to get patients into expensive treatments. Shortly before moving to the USA he had a motorbike crash and on arriving he began to feel tingling in his hands when tired and stressed. Straight away he was diagnosed with MS and told he had to inject himself with beta-interferon at $5000 a shot every month for the rest of his life. His insurance paid for that of course but after a year or so he stopped and hasn’t had any problems since. He says his wife and all her pals take “medication” and see therapists regularly.

I guess culturally, in the last century the UK has often looked towards USA for fashion, music, ideas and trends. That combined with the fact they (sort of) speak the same language and on face value look and appear to be the same as us, means many of us believe they must also think the same as us Brits.

Perhaps the reality is, that the average American thinks in a completely different way to most of us?

Edited to add – most of the Americans I have ever met have been great people, with a healthy outlook on life, so seem distantly removed from the negative topics we are discussing. Perhaps I’ve only met one social strata though…

” most of the Americans I have ever met have been great people, with a healthy outlook on life, so seem distantly removed from the negative topics we are discussing. Perhaps I’ve only met one social strata though… “
this I have met a few Americans as in very few they have been lovely and liberal but in no way can I assume they are typical one was a us army interrogator who served in Afghanistan from the early days intelligent liberal and anti torture, every one I met in Colorado at the time of the Bush Kerry election was dead set against Bush.
I think for good and bad in this country our psyche is shaped by our history and literature in the USA the psyche is shaped by their movies.

guess culturally, in the last century the UK has often looked towards USA for fashion, music, ideas and trends. That combined with the fact they (sort of) speak the same language and on face value look and appear to be the same as us, means many of us believe they must also think the same as us Brits.

Perhaps the reality is, that the average American thinks in a completely different way to most of us?

Replace “American” with “Black”, read it back and see how ridiculous it sounds.

I think for good and bad in this country our psyche is shaped by our history and literature in the USA the psyche is shaped by their movies.

+1

Believing that New York in CSI is how it really is, isn’t far* from judging the UK based on Midsomer Murders!

[edit] I missread that, I thought you were saying our view of them is shaped by the movies. so no I don’t agree[/edit]

*You’re 1.7 times more likely to be murdered in NY than Glasgow (3.3 Vs 5.6 per 100,000). You’re >10x more likely in Compton though (36.7!)!

Over here, gun crime is lower because it’s relatively difficult to actually get your hands on a gun in the first place.

Yes but in other European countries where guns (and more importantly ammunition) are more freely available they don’t have the same level of violence/chaos – and the police are armed too. France etc.

I kinda like the Republican mentality TBH 😕

[video]http://youtu.be/GXrh6wAxJlw[/video]

Road accidents kill more Americans than guns do. The USA has 5x the population of the UK but 17x the road deaths. If their fatality rate was the same as ours they could save somewhere between 10’000 and 20’000 lives a year. That’s madness.

Actually despite all the bad driving and scope for improvement the UK still has roads as safe as anywhere in the world.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/gun-deaths-versus-car-deaths/?_r=0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Judging the US by media reports would be like judging the UK by Dail mail headlines it gives a screwed up impression. When the finacial chrisis hit I had people asking how bad it was in the uk as they were expectign some sort of melt down due to the news reports. There are loads of nutters in the US and the US does nutters in a very diffrent way to us but most people are a long way from this.

As someone said earlier the problem with gun in the us is that the cat is already out of the bag. Control now if tricky. The other probelm is their media is very biased. Anyone sayign the BBC is biased need to take a look at the US. The BBC is not perfect but you get people from both side sayign its too far the other way (which would suggest its not too far off the center ground). The BBC puts a effort into showing balence. The news programs in the sates are more like proaganda for one side or the other with little or no balence allowing paranoi to be whipped up.

The thing that amazes me about the USA and their gun culture is that there aren’t many more gun deaths each year. It’s a lot when compared to more normal countries yes, but they’re not normal over there are they?

I think they show great self restraint considering the easy access to guns and ammo and the amount of morons out and about.

I’m sure if it were a bunch of black guys wandering around the streets with semi-automatic assault rifles, the police would be displaying the same relaxed, ambivilant attitude, and under no circumstances would they immediately shoot them all in the head

1969:

2014:
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLqXYF3ephY[/video]

You still Merica’s help … 🙄

Replace “American” with “Black”, read it back and see how ridiculous it sounds.

Maybe I’m being thick, but I don’t understand your point.

It’s getting less interesting each day, but I have been watching this page for a year or so:

https://www.facebook.com/ChicksOnTheRight

Just to get a handle on the insane crap that gets thrown around over in the US.

e.g:

Some of the things that get posted are, frankly, almost beyond belief.
The links out to the other affiliated sites and the comments too are often, illuminating.

I am proud to say I am banned from the page, for suggesting that Obamacare might be a good thing, lol.

I think for good and bad in this country our psyche is shaped by our history and literature in the USA the psyche is shaped by their movies.
+1

Believing that New York in CSI is how it really is, isn’t far* from judging the UK based on Midsomer Murders!

[edit] I missread that, I thought you were saying our view of them is shaped by the movies. so no I don’t agree[/edit]

In Philippe Sands’ book “Torture Team” he provides some rather astonishing evidence, in the form of witness testimony, that the the DoD, and Rumsfeld himself, were influenced by the series “24” to believe that the ticking bomb scenario was a valid justification for torture. Interesting book and ultimately quite encouraging that the US legal process did in the end put a stop to the practice of torture – at least within their jurisdiction.

binners – Member

I’m sure if it were a bunch of black guys wandering around the streets with semi-automatic assault rifles, the police would be displaying the same relaxed, ambivilant attitude, and under no circumstances would they immediately shoot them all in the head

Umm…no.

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/08/12/armed-black-panthers-march-in-waller-count-texas-oink-oink-bang-bang/

Maybe I’m being thick, but I don’t understand your point.

Ok then.

guess culturally, in the last century the Whites have often looked towards Blacks for fashion, music, ideas and trends. That combined with the fact Blacks (sort of) speak the same language and on face value look and appear to be the same as us, means many of us believe they must also think the same as us Whites.

Does that not make you feel a little uncomfortable? If it does, then why is it acceptable to swap the nouns?