Ukraine

Just a note on White Phosphorus.  All armies, including the British Army use it.  It’s primary use is for producing a near instantaneous smoke screen.  It is not against the laws of armed conflict to use it as a smoke munition. It clearly is however, when used in an anti personnel role.

It’s horrible stuff, I have personal experience of it and I am absolutely not condoning it, but just clarifying a possible misconception that it’s mere possession or use is automatically a war crime when that isn’t the case.

I did, its looking like Russia have killed hundreds in weeks

Given the nature of the footage emerging of cities reduced to rubble by absolutely indiscriminate heavy artillery, cruise missiles and airstrikes I think it’s hopelessly naive to think the deaths will be in mere hundreds.

And more importantly, what’s glaringly obvious is the Russians don’t give a shit how many people they kill.

700 applications have been approved out of 32,000 made

And a lot of those approved applications will be unusable, the Ukranian family that I know of (mum & two primary school age children) have had the chidren’s visa’s approved, but not the mum, i.e. completely useless as they can’t realistically travel without their mum………

This is going way off thread, but it is really important to draw a distinction between isolated incidents in Iraq v the Ukraine War.

Agreed

Just a note on White Phosphorus. All armies, including the British Army use it. It’s primary use is for producing a near instantaneous smoke screen. It is not against the laws of armed conflict to use it as a smoke munition. It clearly is however, when used in an anti personnel role.

It’s horrible stuff, I have personal experience of it and I am absolutely not condoning it, but just clarifying a possible misconception that it’s mere possession or use is automatically a war crime when that isn’t the case.

Also agreed, however the use of it in Fallujah was reportedly used in civilian areas.

The whole of Fallujah was technically a civilian area. They used it to flush people out of buildings without differentiating between combatants & non-combatants.

The whole of Fallujah was technically a civilian area. They used it to flush people out of buildings without differentiating between combatants & non-combatants

Illegal and immoral, no doubt. Even if there were only combatants present it would still be illegal to deliberately fire WP at them.

Yeah, i think that’s what was decided, but somehow not much was done after the fact.

Standard shrug of the shoulders and something muttered about operational necessity.

All of which deserves investigation…

On the other hand, that and other charges laid make not a jot of difference to the morality (or clear lack thereof) of the actions of the Russian military at this time.

Plus, they invaded so they have a serious morality defacit to start with.

Word. And I wonder how much of the Russian military’s actions in this regard has been directed by the Kremlin. Not that it absolves anyone of any culpability, it simply increases the number who are; makes them state endorsed war crimes.

Sadly I think Vlad is fully aware and in control of civilians ending up in mass graves with a round to the back of the head.

I remember chilling testimony on the World at War, from German women describing the actions of the Red Army in 1945. It would seem not much has changed.

Anastasiia Lapatina is reporting that Mariupol Council has said Russians have started using their mobile crematoria. Don’t know if I want this to be fake news or not. Fear for the civilian casualty numbers, but even more that Russia is finding a way to “disappear” them. If the bodies aren’t found, they’ll just deny, deny, deny. Jeez.

Small fire, nothing to see here…
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/06/italian-protesters-set-fire-villa-kremlins-chief-propagandist/

I’m expecting yachts sinking…

Russians have started using their mobile crematoria

I think those consist of a pile of vehicle tyres and a can of petrol…

I guess someone got bollocked for leaving evidence (dead bodies) laying around and they don’t want the same to happen again.

Grim.

I would love it – love it – if the Ukrainians chase the Russians fleeing Kyiv back into the mother******land, curl round to the south east and cut off the Russian forces in the east. Never gonna happen, but please, God, please…

Some little old lady on the news tonight, who lived through the WW 2, likened the Russian occupation as very similar to the Nazis except they spoke Russian.

Given the nature of the footage emerging of cities reduced to rubble by absolutely indiscriminate heavy artillery, cruise missiles and airstrikes I think it’s hopelessly naive to think the deaths will be in mere hundreds.

And more importantly, what’s glaringly obvious is the Russians don’t give a shit how many people they kill.

Exactly. I would be surprised if the Ukrainian civilian death toll wasn’t in the tens of thousands, there is no way on earth that it’s only going to be in the hundreds.

And, this is deliberate on the part of Russia. Fighting in a city will always be brutal and a lot of civilians will be killed because the defending forces are dispersed among civilians. What Russia is doing goes beyond just trying to eliminate the defending forces, they have a deliberate policy of genocide against the Ukrainian civilians. That’s an order of magnitude worse than anything the U.S. has done since Vietnam.

Ok, so scholars are having a debate about whether it should be called “genocide” or merely “atrocity crimes”. That should make for excellent panel discussions at academic conferences.

too far, especially given the limited data we have, still believe that at the very least we are talking about atrocity crimes. Put simply, the argument is not about whether Russia does truly horrible things to Ukraine and Ukrainians but which term describes the horror better /2

— Eugene Finkel (@eugene_finkel) April 6, 2022

On the subject of visas for ukrainians, the “government”‘s response to the recent petition predictably plays the “russians will sneak in” card which we’re supposed to be terrified of even though they basically hugged russian spies and kleptocrats on arrival…

But amazingly, it also says “Visas provide clarity and stability to an individual having moved from another country following horrific events” and “For the individual, a visa can help provide them with a better understanding on what they can do in the UK in terms of employment and how long they can stay for.” and best of all, “The Windrush Lessons Learned Review underlined the importance of providing individuals with clear evidence of their immigration status – lots of people were not adequately documented and this caused problems for both them and their dependents later down the line.”

That’s right kids, the hostile environment and all that comes with it and the system that’s cunningly pretended to welcome ukrainians while putting up hidden barriers, is all for their good! They’ll benefit from the clarity, the understanding, and the better documentation! Really it’d be immoral not to have all these crushing visa requirements and it’s everyone else in europe that’s the scumbags.

My take on this is that the U.S. is making it clear to Russia that the U.S. can escalate if Russia escalates. So far, the equipment that NATO has supplied has been fairly simple defensive stuff that requires little training or Eastern Bloc stuff that Ukraine is already familiar with. By officially confirming that Ukrainian soldiers are in the U.S. being trained on new weapons, they are sending a message that the U.S. can respond to Russian escalation by supplying more sophisticated weapons.

A very small number of Ukrainians were already in the U.S. for professional military education. Pentagon took advantage of the opportunity to pull them aside for a couple of days and provide them some training, particularly on the Switchblade UAVs.https://t.co/ybgUEpMd6F

— Stephen Nicoud (@StephenNicoud) April 7, 2022

Exactly. I would be surprised if the Ukrainian civilian death toll wasn’t in the tens of thousands, there is no way on earth that it’s only going to be in the hundreds.

That’s pretty much where I’m at.

Apologies for getting drawn into yet another “whattabout them” deflection.

Should have just pointed out the thread title and moved on.

By any measure, this is very funny…

Dear @TwitterSupport I am not “Russian State Affiliated media”. I work for NO #Russian media. I have 400,000 followers. I’m the leader of a British political party and spent nearly 30 years in the British parliament. If you do not remove this designation I will take legal action.

— George Galloway (@georgegalloway) April 6, 2022

So far, the equipment that NATO has supplied has been fairly simple defensive stuff that requires little training or Eastern Bloc stuff that Ukraine is already familiar with.

I saw this yesterday, although from the same root source and nowhere else.

And takes me back to Ukraine being “neutral” as a part of peace talks. I just cant see how that’s going to be achieved on anything other than a piece of paper that says “were not aligned with NATO, honest guv” How the hell is Ukraine going to be anything other than an opponent to Russia after this?

Do the Balkans may provide some ideas as to how diplomatic relations will pan out!?

There’s only so bad you can be.

I very much hope you’re right, but given that we’ve no idea at all what’s going on on the font lines of this war, and the clear casual disregard that Russians forces have for civilians lives combined with the fact that they frequently use both WP and DU rounds (that caused the birth defects in Iraq subsequently) makes me think you might want to wait before making pronouncements like that.

By any measure, this is very funny…

I’m enjoying the responses to that tweet.

By any measure, this is very funny…

That moment when you realise that, what you thought was a parody account, was in fact the real account all along…

That’s right kids, the hostile environment and all that comes with it and the system that’s cunningly pretended to welcome ukrainians while putting up hidden barriers, is all for their good!

FFS, get them into the UK, even just into holding centres, and then we can sort out the paperwork. I’m ashamed to work for this government – suspect it’s a factor in my mental health.

Ok, so scholars are having a debate about whether it should be called “genocide” or merely “atrocity crimes”. That should make for excellent panel discussions at academic conferences.

There are extensive definitions in international law. So the discussion is essentially the one the prosecution team will have as to what the correct charges are. As more facts become known, the position will become clearer.

I detect a sneer in your tone @thols2, which is disappointing. The things being discussed are not of purely academic interest. They relate to the process of prosecution that will (we hope) eventually take place. Historically, academia has been deeply involved in developing doctrine in this area and in supplying the manpower to get the system up and running, more so than in many other areas of law.

I detect a sneer in your tone thols2, which is disappointing. The things being discussed are not of purely academic interest. They relate to the process of prosecution that will (we hope) eventually take place.

Well, Putin and other Russians have publicly said they do not recognize Ukraine as a real country and they aim to destroy it and exterminate anyone who resists. Then they sent tens of thousands of soldiers in and did exactly what they said they were going to do (which is genocide.) Now we have a scholarly debate about whether it’s genocide, despite Putin saying that’s what he was going to do and sending in troops and doing it. I really don’t think there’s any doubt about this one, it’s genocide, just like Putin bragged about.

I really don’t think there’s any doubt about this one, it’s genocide, just like Putin bragged about.

I agree with you entirely but what we think doesn’t matter – it’s down to the legal experts and scholars to make sure no one avoids a conviction due to a technicality.

I think it would be difficult imagining our politicians being so candid

Mario Draghi: “Do you prefer peace or the air conditioning on? That’s the question we should ask ourself”. pic.twitter.com/ErT6E5X4aq

— David Carretta (@davcarretta) April 6, 2022

The wheels of justice turn slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine….

Definitely defined means it might stick.

Now, we just need someone with a very long shephard’s hook to get ahold of him

First question soldiers, then shoot them

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article238035659/Ukraine-Krieg-im-Liveticker-Russische-Soldaten-besprachen-Graeueltaten-offenbar-ueber-Funk.html

Welt report claiming intelligence sourced from the German Federal Intelligence Service

You’ll need Chrome or similar to translate

I’m ashamed to work for this government

You don’t work for them you work for us (thanks). They are just your bad bosses.

I believe that technically civil servants are servants of the Crown, just as Government ministers are (when being ministers not MPs of course).

By any measure, this is very funny…

This is just priceless!!

You literally have your Russian state funded TV show listed in your profile description… pic.twitter.com/PPzImLp5HR

— Adam Schwarz (@AdamJSchwarz) April 6, 2022

May have already been pointed out but having read a few reports I wonder if at some point the Russian line will change to:

All male Ukrainians are being called into the army therefore all male Ukrainians are valid millarty targets. Male Ukrainians were using civilians (the rest of their families they live with) as human shields therefore it was hard to to have some civilian deaths.

Or conscripting all Ukrainians into the Russian army and those that don’t turn up are shot as deserters.

Interesting…….

BREAKING – European Parliament want immediate and full fossil fuel embargo !

No gas, no oil, no coal…

NO European money for Putin’s army !

? pic.twitter.com/sh46e1ehiS

— Guy Verhofstadt (@guyverhofstadt) April 7, 2022