Please guys, can we let Chewkw have the floor to answer my questions re Scott Ritter and Douglas MacGregor.
Chewkw, what are your thoughts on their judgement and their objectivity?
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:18 pm
What are your thoughts on their judgement and their objectivity?
Take it as information but interpret them as you see fit.
As we know both sides are good at propaganda so let's see which sides are more "accurate" in their explanation.
My view is that Finland and Sweden need to think hard because they really don't know which side(s) can be trusted in terms of the propaganda.
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:22 pm
With the greatest of respect Chewkw, I am very politely asking you what your thoughts are about Scott Ritter and Douglas MacGregor's judgement and objectivity. To clarify I'm not asking you to summarise what the two individuals said in their respective videos.
That isn't comparing apples with oranges. I think that it would be very informative to understand your thinking as to why you have posted these two videos without any context other than "watch these", let's get to the nitty-gritty as to what your thoughts are about these two individuals' objectivity and whether they offer sound judgement.
Are you struggling to answer my question because I didn't explain what I'd asked clearly enough?
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:27 pm
chew is just being an irritating troll as usual. He's in the wrong but is peppering the thread with utter crap dressed up as rational discussion ... he's trying to save face as being incorrect and called out on it is uncomfortable for him.
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:30 pm
With the greatest of respect Chewkw, I am very politely asking you what your thoughts are about Scott Ritter and Douglas MacGregor’s judgement and objectivity. To clarify I’m not asking you to summarise what the two individuals said in their respective videos.
That isn’t comparing apples with oranges.
My judgement on them? Not sure I understand the question but I shall try. I sense them saying the USA(NATO backbone) is not telling the truth but who am I to judge them? They are both saying Russia is brutal and will go all the way to achieve their objective. They have alternative viewpoints which contradicts many that oppose the Russian perspective.
Objectivity? Not sure what you mean but I shall try ... the information that they provide perhaps should be investigated to make sense to see if they are worthy as part of decision-making process for Finland and Sweden before joining NATO.
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:34 pm
@ElShamilo - please let Chewkw have the floor here, I'm genuinely very intellectually curious as to what he has to say in answer to my two questions.
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:34 pm
chew is just being an irritating troll as usual. He’s in the wrong but is peppering the thread with utter crap dressed up as rational discussion … he’s trying to save face as being incorrect and called out on it is uncomfortable for him
I thought those two interviews are interesting to show their own narratives. I am not trying to convince or to save face but merely saying that perhaps information should also be viewed from the other side(s) if decision is to be made more accurately considering the situation.
Anyway, I am not here to say that Putin/Russia is right in his approach but perhaps some information from other perspectives could shed more light.
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:39 pm
Oh god.... Please will this stop
And, that video seems very dubious.
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:39 pm
Uncomfirmed, obvs.
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:39 pm
@chewkw You conflate bullshit with a cohesive argument. Exactly the frikkin point of "question more".
Am bored.... Can we use this thread back for talking about what's happening in Ukraine please?
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:41 pm
My judgement on them? Not sure I understand the question but I shall try. I see sense them saying the USA(NATO backbone) are not telling the truth but who am I to judge them? They are both saying Russia is brutal and will go all the way to achieve their objective. They have alternative viewpoints which contradicts many that oppose the Russian perspective.
Good answer Chewkw, thank you.
So if one were approaching my questions critically, why would Scott Ritter write a series of op-eds for Russian state media? Given that Ritter's carreer took an unfortunate turn a while back, why would he be scratching around with RT and not one of a number of more reputable media outlets? Would you say that is professional reputation warrants sharing his opinion, are you concerned in any way that his judgement may not be particularly sound?
Are you sharing these videos because on an intellectual level you agree with the sentiment, or is it simply that their narrative fits nicely with your own?
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:41 pm
If the Russian flagship has been sunk/severely damaged would be a huge blow
But we've been stung before with claims Vasily bykov was sunk (it wasn't)
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:45 pm
Would you say that is professional reputation warrants sharing his opinion, are you concerned in any way that his judgement may not be particularly sound?
He is presenting his opinion but that is an information perhaps could be investigated to see if he warrants attention. All information needs to be investigated.
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:49 pm
He is presenting his opinion but that is an information perhaps could be investigated to see if he warrants attention. All information needs to be investigated.
What if I were to tell you that the world is actually flat. I can confidently assure you that the world is flat because I've just written exactly that in an article paid for by Flat Earth Weekly. Would you spend time and resources to investigate this until such point as you agree with me? TBH the Flat Earth Weekly gig pays my bills because I can't get a platform with a reputable media outlet, but you can trust me at my word.
Posted : 13/04/2022 11:55 pm
Also it seems that for the ……..14th time……. Ukraine has destroyed Russian forces at Kherson Airfield!
Posted : 14/04/2022 12:08 am
Interesting perspective on Colonel MacGregor and his capacity for objectivity here.
Am waiting for independent reports about the cruiser Moskva (literally Moscow!) being damaged in a missile attack before commenting on this.
As a final point to ponder before I shuffle off to bed (BTW today is actually my birthday and unhappily I've tested positive for covid this morning) but I'm struck by this:
Objectivity? Not sure what you mean but I shall try …
Critical thinking skills are important and allow you to "save face" by being able to differentiate between a sound argument that you don't agree with and a terrible argument that you do agree with.
Is that the same Scott Ritter that accused Joe Biden of being a war criminal the other day, and parroted Russia’s nonsense about the Bucha atrocities?
Yes, the very same. If Chewkw had approached his argument critically by explaining "this is a really terrible guy but I agree with x ands y because it's evidenced here" then he would not have spent the last hour and twenty minutes struggling to answer quite legitimate questions about the impartiality of his sources. FWIW, if I want to know what the weather is doing, I don't want to sit between two meteorologists paid to have opposing views, I'll look out of the window and work it out.
Posted : 14/04/2022 12:12 am
Also it seems that for the ……..14th time……. Ukraine has destroyed Russian forces at Kherson Airfield!
Posted : 14/04/2022 12:16 am
Russian state news Tass reporting Moskva fire , ammo detonated
& crew evacuation
https://twitter.com/tass_agency/status/1514378082660069379?t=VaDOhWpbS4LhYmuKedRHOQ&s=19
It's their air defense ship
Combined with the Kherson airfield attack it looks like Ukraine are looking to liberate Kherson
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1514369555140861954?t=Z6Mb0r-DkYLM1qhwUi0P1Q&s=19
Posted : 14/04/2022 12:16 am
OSINT sources listening to Russian Comms have confirmed the attack. It’s latest message was “sinking”
Posted : 14/04/2022 12:16 am
Is that the same Scott Ritter that accused Joe Biden of being a war criminal the other day, and parroted Russia's nonsense about the Bucha atrocities?
Posted : 14/04/2022 12:17 am
You just hate to be the person breaking the news of the Russian navy flagship sinking to Putin
Posted : 14/04/2022 12:20 am
Just break the news via a letter (with appropriate stamp)
Posted : 14/04/2022 12:22 am
BBC reporting it is a fire on-board
Reportedly ammo detonated, which tends to happen when hit by a missile, though Russia couldn't possibly admit that...
Posted : 14/04/2022 12:50 am
All crew being taken off so sounds likely it might well sink.
Posted : 14/04/2022 1:00 am
If Putin was genuinely worried about these various countries coming into NATO and the EU then all he had to do was make an alliance/partnership with Russia an attractive option. Trade agreements, that sort of thing...
Posted : 14/04/2022 1:00 am
chew is just being an irritating troll as usual. He’s in the wrong but is peppering the thread with utter crap dressed up as rational discussion … he’s trying to save face as being incorrect and called out on it is uncomfortable for him.
This. He's just spouting nonsense.
Posted : 14/04/2022 1:34 am
That ship...
It's the one told to go to hell by the defenders of that small island at the start of the war.
It was also built in Ukraine, the town it was built in is currently being shelled by Russia.
Posted : 14/04/2022 2:03 am
Interesting thread on why Putin made such an enormous misjudgement.
https://twitter.com/IlyaMatveev_/status/1514221583841341444
Posted : 14/04/2022 2:16 am
LOL @ PJM, well played.
Posted : 14/04/2022 6:15 am
This. He’s just spouting nonsense
It's a bit more than nonsense, it has a purpose and it's not honest discussion
Posted : 14/04/2022 6:18 am
How will the potential sinking of the ship help those on land?
Posted : 14/04/2022 7:31 am
I guess the main way this helps Ukraine is that it means any amphibious operation to attack Odesa is now definitely off. But then again, Russians being Russians you never know.
Posted : 14/04/2022 7:35 am
How will the potential sinking of the ship help those on land?
It could potentially stop the other 20 or so Russian ships sitting just off the coast from attacking Ukraine.
In particular the ones firing missiles at Ukrainian civilians and the landing ships that contain enough troops and hardware to destroy Ukrainian civilian targets. Have you noticed the damage Russian missiles and bombs are inflicting on Ukrainian cities?
Posted : 14/04/2022 7:37 am
It's a (or was!?) guided missile cruiser so able to fire upon land targets.
Posted : 14/04/2022 7:38 am
How will the potential sinking of the ship help those on land?
Quite a bit of the destruction of Mariupol has been done by warships firing missiles from out at sea.
Posted : 14/04/2022 7:40 am
I'm just so torn.
Clearly civilians in thier thousands are dying, being injured and terrified in the south. Awful.
Clearly the Russians are active, making some progress and still well armed, particularly with long distance weapons.
Yet there still seems to be a lot of Ukrainian progress. This may be as I'm tuned into western news, but it seems to be positive news.
I'm just struggling to see either side having a significant upper hand, or a speedy end to this to save some more lives. 🙁
Posted : 14/04/2022 7:57 am
What if Paris had fought like Stalingrad? More lives would be lost there and then, but how much shorter would the war have been?
The French almost stopped the Ardennes advance in 1940, most of their effective soldiers were killed/taken prisoner in that battle and not available for defending Paris. Also not the weather back-up available to the French, nor the extended supply lines by horse and cart to make the Germans dig in and await supplies
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:00 am
@mattoutandabout
You're right to be sceptical
Most the the territory taken back has been following a Russian withdrawal.
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:05 am
How will the potential sinking of the ship help those on land?
It's actually the air defense ship for the entire fleet AND provides air cover for Russian troops in southern Ukraine.
(My BIL is on a t45 destroyer in Portsmouth that does this for southern Britain, I've been in the radar room and it tracks everything entering UK airspace)
This Russian flagship was targeted by TB2 drones and blown up by Ukrainian made Neptune anti ship missile so propaganda value is huge
The ships firing kalibr cruise missiles and supplying Ru troops in southern Ukraine now have lost air defense
And we've seen they are already vulnerable,
There's also reports that Ru navy being redeployed as ground troops because they are so short of men. Morale must be in the mud
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:10 am
Am I correct is saying that's the naval flagship taken out by a country that doesn't even have a navy (currently)?
Oops.
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:13 am
Thanks for your answers.
Do the Russians have another ship that can replicate what the stricken ship does?
Can we expect an increase in Ukrainian air strikes and do they have anything left to strike with?
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:21 am
Rob Lee is worth following and gives a good assessment of what's happening in Ukraine.
His current Moskva assessment.....
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:21 am
Can we expect an increase in Ukrainian air strikes and do they have anything left to strike with
The thing is people had no idea that Ukraine had any anti ship missile left, so Russia will have to be extra cautious, well played by Ukrainias
UK, USA & Norway are sending more, but they will take time to install, set up & train (UK ones are actually ship based and it'll be complicated converting then to land based)
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:24 am
Do the Russians have another ship that can replicate what the stricken ship does?
It would actually have to be part of the Black Sea fleet as well, I’ll need to double check what Turkey is doing with access.
I think it’s along the lines of the existing fleet ships can transit but new ones cannot be added.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Straits#Terms
From wiki
However, Çavuşoğlu reiterated that pursuant to the terms of the agreement, Turkey cannot block Russian warships from returning to their registered base.[47] Around February 27–28, Turkey denied 3 of 4 Russian warships to enter the Black Sea, as 3 did not have home base in the Black Sea.
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:26 am
Zippy - Russia has limited ships in the Black Sea, and Turkey controls entry to it. By treaty, it doesn’t allow warring nations ships to pass unless they are returning to home port.
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:28 am
LOL @ PJM, well played.
Genuinely, my intention wasn't to embarrass or humiliate Chewkw, I wanted to understand his thinking behind sharing those two videos and (hopefully) for Chewkw to learn to critically assess sources before posting them verbatim without context. If he were to be completely honest, he'd say that he was looking for content that squared with his own view, not that his view changed in the face of fresh evidence.
Anyway, I'm catching up on the news this morning. The successful (and now independently verified) attack on the Moskva is one heck of a ballsy move, even if the Moskva hasn't sunk it's been badly damaged and will be out of action for some considerable time yet.
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:32 am
even if the Moskva hasn’t sunk
I think Russian media saying it's been sunk
Apparently stormy seas too, no idea how many got off, the Russian media says all, I'm sceptical
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:40 am
Might we see Russian retaliation on this - likely on the civilian population?
🙁
Also, if this is now a gap in air cover, surely Ukrainian forces will make use of this asap before replacement is made.
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:41 am
I think Russian media saying it’s been sunk
Apparently stormy seas too
Wow. The Black Sea can be stormy if you drop enough cruise missiles in it.
Posted : 14/04/2022 8:43 am
