Please please just let people do stuff – if you are worrying then …
which would you stop

this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-36412881

or this – has far more mileage in discussion:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36413124

The TT is one thing, essentially a time trial. The short course stuff is crazy (NW200, Sothern 100) as they are mass start events.

This is a good documentary http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3546370/

are the riders selfish, I think we all agree they are very brave and talented, but do you think they give a thought about there next of kin, I think I couldn’t do it, I can ride a bike but no where near that fast but even if I could I don’t think for me personally I would risk checking out of this life early for it

What insurance do they have?

I would be amazed if they don’t have event insurance. It was certainly a stipulation to organising a triathlon (3rd party, volunteers and competitors liability) so it would be incredible if you didn’t have to have the same for a motorised event.

Go on then. Find somewhere in the world, with exactly the same characteristics and geography, but without the buildings, walls etc. Let us know how you get on;

🙄
Do you know what an analogy is?

My point is that the danger is not a by-product of the race. It’s not simply unfortunate that the best race track in the world (is it?) is flanked by life-threatening obstacles. You could (in my ANALOGY) have the same race on an identically-curvy bit of tarmac but have run-offs and grandstands instead of drystone walls and lamposts. Who would watch it?

Danger is the very essence of the TT, without the potential for death it would be a completely different sport. It’s not about skill or speed or engineering (though obviously those things are required. But at the top of a vaguely-even playing field, it comes down to how close to death people are willing to go to post a fast time. And that’s weird for me.

Read this.

Ordered. Like the sound of that.

The speed, skill, finesse required to win would be the same. It would be the same race with a fraction of the danger.

If you did replicate the track but with run off, no walls/trees etc, then you simply wouldn’t get people wanting to do it. On a sanitised version of the TT I doubt McGuiness etc would be anything like as fast Rossi etc.

The whole point of road racing (and other properly dangerous sports) is that it is pushing the limit, knowing that if you go that step too far, death is a big reality.

That is why many of the big track riders simply will not do road racing as they do not have the mental capacity to deal with knowing that one mistake could equal death.

As to car rallying, yep people died, and yes it got a bit silly, but now that sport is pretty dead in comparison to what it used to be an international level. At least at national level you can still go and spectate at in a forest, inches from a car doing 100mph.

Mat Oxley is, as ever, fantastic on the subject;

Linky

Five deaths so far this year…

I have loved watching it so far, but that’s 5 lives lost and prob 5 family’s in a total state of bereavement
how many more before something has to change, 5 lives lost in F1 in a week of racing and I doubt there would be another race till something was done

5 lives lost in F1 in a week of racing and I doubt there would be another race till something was done

Are you going to stop folk climbing Everest too?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/25/mount-everest-climbers-death-toll-rises-to-five/

From having a quick look it doesn’t look like any of the folk killed had to be there? It wasn’t their livelihood, and they all knew the risks involved

It’s all subjective. The current generation (in the UK, and other highly developed countries) has been spoilt rotten in mortality terms. No mass casualty wars for a generation, road traffic deaths and violent crime death at an all time low, modern medicine able to preserve and prolong life like never before.

Obviously this is mostly a good thing, but it has sensitised people to loss of life; it’s tragic when someone dies, but only for the immediate loved ones. It’s terribly sad for the people that knew the dead person, and it’s a little sad/morbidly interesting for everyone else, especially if the death was unusual or particularly nasty.

Five young men dying doing something that they love, whilst being fully conversant with the risks falls firmly into the ‘ah that’s a bit of a shame’ category for everyone but the dead chap’s friends and family. All this hand wringing is a little bit OTT, IMHO.

There are strong parallels between this discussion and the issues around euthanasia; as in it comes down to whether you value quality or quantity of life more highly.

5 deaths? Blimey.

I am on the fence on this one. I do like the unique challenge that the TT represents and the riders are without doubt something very special. But the continued bleating of the TT fans saying that the risk is something that should stay there and that it would just be sanitised if anything was changed reminds me of the attitude in Motorsports in the 50/60’s. Safety was increased massively in Motorsport over the next few decades, and to a great extent it is still just as exciting to compete and watch – people put F1 up as an example of safety gone too far but people have still died in recent years so the risk is still there, not in small part to the crazy performance a lot of cars have.

I really do think there are measures that could be taken in the TT which might save lives but not take away from the mentalness that it has. If those measures cut deaths by even a small amount it would be worth it.

What measures? I think there will be a point that the super bikes are stopped, or restricted, but on the whole there is not that much you can really do to the course.

For the sidecars (they are just crazy), I do think they should use to a restricted, bigger engine to reduce the number of blown engines.

to reduce the number of blown engines.

Oh won’t somebody think of the children big ends…

Five young men

It’s good to know 58 is young.

For what it’s worth, I’m not hand-wringing about this, but I thought it had been a long, long time since there were 5 fatalities at the TT.

Think I have already said this on another thread about restricting power, the 250cc lap record set in 1996? Is 118mph at the time I think the lap record was around 124mph bear in mind a 250 was giving maybe 75bhp less than half of the super bikes back then yet only 5mph slower due to the significantly increased corner speed of a lighter bike- reduce the power and the teams will look to increase corner speed and hence increase risk as most of the IOM is 4,5,6 gear corners (the 100bhp twins are doing a 128mph?) You would have to put them all back on 125s to make a differance
This year was the first time someone was killed who I knew personally (Ian Bell) and he was an unassuming family man I am not sure how is son Carl will get over this one but they knew what they were doing.

Its the high risk that draws the riders to it. Sanitise it and the draw isn’t there anymore. But, how do you sanitise a 37.75 mile circuit? Six people died during the TT in 1970, where the senior was won with average laps of 101 mph. Five died in 1951, where av lap speeds were ~92 mph. The number of deaths per year has not shown an upward trend since 1950, despite the lap record increasing by 40 mph average. So would restricting the bikes actually do anything? I bet if you plot number of deaths , since 1950, against lap times, there is no correlation. The only way to sanitise the race is to remove the things that kill at any speed ie walls, lamp posts, buildings etc. This is unfeasable. If it could be done, the event then becomes like any other race, and as i said earlier, the draw has gone.

Yes, four people have died on the mountain circuit this year ( and one in the pre tt classic) but this is not significant when you look at the history. The TT is what it is, the risks are known by the riders and they are willing to take the risk. To me, the TT is one of those things that hasnt been swallowed up by the cotton wool nanny state that we live in and gives people, who are brave and courageous enough, an opportunity to test themselves. So hats off the the Isle of Man and the riders for continuing to ‘stick it to the man’.

EDIT – as previously mentioned in another post, Everest has killed more people in a shorter time period. Everest = 280 people since 1922. IOMTT = 252 people since 1907. Where are the people saying that climbing everest should be stopped? What about all the sherpas that are killed on Everest? They aren’t there for the thrill and aren’t risk takers but are simply trying to make a living.

I think v8ninety hits it on the head, death is no longer common place compared to first half of the 20th century so when you see five lives lost in the pursuit of pleasure it unsettles our current sensibilities. We don’t need anymore IOM type events but we must not loose this thing (and the NW200 etc) to satisfy the moral majority.

The riders talk about the furniture on the course. I.e. the immovable objects. These things seem to define a lot of the limitations and along with the truly bumpy sections define the areas of the track where time can be won and lost. Thesecond athletes are out to find a limit, their will is to extract maximum performance from their kit against said track on the day in question.

It isn’t beyond me to see them banning the superbikes in years to come. A la group b. Similar advances directed towards and focusing on the suspension and handling of the bikes,budgets being spent on link arms, shocks and rebound stability instead of èking hp out. It would be safer. A stable less powerful bike which requires to be driven through the course rather than an overpowered bike which needs nursed/featherleighted round the circuit.

Hutchy is more refined. Within the limits of the bike meets course combo. Rather calculated and germanic in his efficiency and calculated nature. Dunlop is a true road rider,fourth generation, and his style is indicative of dancing on that line between machine and it’s interface with the terra firma. Dunlop will always be faster on a machine which has too much for the course, it appears he has an instinctiveness and raw understanding of machine and race track combined with the mental acuity to hold it together for 120minutes of complete clarity and flow.

In my opinion,leave the challenge there. Let them come,let them try. Let them die. Who are we to deny people the opportunity to expose themselves to the rawness of the tt race. It’s a real race, it is how it has always been, let them come and race.

The superbikes are only marginally quicker than the stock bikes. So how do you ban a bike, that i could go out and buy off the shelf, and ride over the un restricted speed limit mountain mile? It is the nature of the course, not the bikes, that kills

It is the nature of the riders application of machine to course that kills.

I think the superbikes are where the pinnacle of the challenge lies. They have too much power for the irregularities of the road surface without the electronic jigpockery the superstocks have to smoothly get that hp down. It takes a true talent to be up above 133 on them.

The course is a stalwart of the bike road racing circuit/community. The circuit and race are not going anywhere. Local industry revolves around this week of the year and the buzz on the island is electric. You can’t change the course. All that will alter is gradual changes in the homologation to encourage focus of future development on suspension and traction control etc

Castanea, i totally agree with you. What i am saying is that if you hit a lamp post at 100 mph on a 250cc, you will die, if you hit the same lamp post at 150 mph on a super bike, you will die. There are two ways to change this – 1) remove the lamp post ( which can’t/won’t happen) or 2) reduce the probability of coming off and hitting the lamp post. It is point number two that future development must focus upon – but how do you factor in all of the huge number of variables around a 37 mile circuit in suspension setup for example?

Mmm yes. Inevitably due to the wide variance in the road surface and thus huge parameters to calculate into suspension set up, at no one point in the lap will the setup be perfect for the bumps and terrain at that moment.

Maybe intelligent traction control and a balanced and predictable tune that the rider understands the boundaries of and can work within is the most refined it can ever be. Or…perhaps on board adjustment of brake balance and dampening which the rider can manipulate throughout the lap would allow progress towards refinement. Albeit at the expense of some mental processing power from the rider.

Whichever setup is presented and however many precautions are put in place it will always be the riders prerogative to lean against that line to extract the best possible performance from any circumstances. Gladiatorial spirit and ego fuelled will to gamble with confidence at the limit defines the champions of these contests. You can’t shield against that, I can only observe and admire.

You can tweak all you want. However, whilst you have human beings racing machines at silly speeds inches away from immovable objects, on a track that would mentally exhaust Einstein, riders will die. Humans (esp when close to the limit) make mistakes. Road courses quite often punish mistakes with death.

The riders know this, and do it anyway. Don’t change a thing; you’d break it.

[Quote]But the continued bleating of the TT fans saying that the risk is something that should stay there and that it would just be sanitised if anything was changed reminds me of the attitude in Motorsports in the 50/60’s.[/quote]
I’d argue with that, there are differences – no-one says there SHOULDN’T be safety at the IoM, the problem is that it’s very hard to make substantial changes (unlike purpose-built circuits). Also, the catalyst for change came from the likes of your Jackie Stewarts – I don’t see any similar calls coming from the road racing fraternity – every single competitor is aware of the danger and has the opportunity not to take part. For as long as people want to race it, I applaud them.

Regarding the calls above for limits on Superbikes, two of those who died this year were on sidecars.