- This topic has 69 replies, 35 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by slowoldman.
-
TT safety V F1 safety
-
milkymanFree Member
I love watching the TT and its no doubt very dangerous with a fair few people loosing there lives, so do the TT organisers do enough to try and reduce this, F1 seems to go to a lot of trouble to try and minimise it
legendFree Member135mph* on two wheels on public roads on a 33 mile lap. This is always going to be a very dangerous game, take away the danger and a lot of the challenge and appeal goes too – these people do not have the same mind set as multi-millionaire F1 drivers
*average
finishthatFree MemberYes they do – novice TT riders have compulsory inductions and are absolutely informed about what they are undertaking .
F1 has big money behind it and a miniscule driver list so can influence in
very specific ways – rules and changes to tracks.There could not really be a bigger contrast really – you could ride in the TT
you will never drive in an F1 race.mattsccmFree MemberThey do plenty. As well as above you take your own risks. Your life is your responsibility, especially in this sort of case where a) you don’t have to be there and b) the throttle works both ways.
milky1980Free MemberYou can make a car into one huge safety device without ruining the car, a motorbike not so much. Every rider knows what the consequences are so it’s up to them whether they do it or not. If spectators start getting killed (like what happened to Group B) then it’ll be unacceptable.
TT is the last outpost for modern, balls on the line Gladiatorial combat. It’s what makes it so compelling. As long as the riders have total respect for each other’ safety and don’t do stupid riding then let them crack on.
FunkyDuncFree MemberCan’t compare the 2 at all. One is a very safe sport that plays the danger card to try and keep punters watching. The other is dangerous and good for it. Too much of the world is sanitised today
no_eyed_deerFree MemberSurely, you can compare the two? Wasn’t that the OP’s point?
They’re both different motorsports and both events carry a different level of risk. Discuss.
oldmanmtbFree MemberThe TT is possibly the last true global “amatuer” motorsport event -it has no connection at any level with F1 which is now something akin to “celebrities in fast cars” and I am not deriding the skill or (limited) risk in F1. You ride the TT with no expectation of a cotton wool environment – it’s not the Guy Martins and John Mcguiness that make the TT it’s the dozens of amatuer clubman with a fraction of the budget and an equal amount of balls who ride there every year and are only a few mph behind the superstars, I doubt relativley speaking there is a faster human being on the planet on any machine who can hold a candle to the top 5 in the TT, I have ridden the island on mad Sunday back in the day, and these guys are truly remarkable I would buy all of them beer all night anywhere and I wouldn’t give Lewis Hamilton the time of day in comparison
bob_summersFull MemberWas chatting to a mate’s dad tonight who has4marshalled at the TT for decades and in response to the op, he told me after complaining to the travelling Marshall a few years back about a potentially dangerous change to the course on the mountain (some new fence posts installed exactly where some riders habitually clipped the verge), was accused of wanting to turn the TT into Donington Park. A rider a few inches off line clipped said fence post with his head and was killed instantly, recorded as a racing accident at the inquest. Even years later, the bloke (a staunch Pure Roads supporter) is still upset by what happened and just goes to highlight the unique nature of the TT.
I’ve been away from the TT and road racing for years but it’s still very very special to me. Still got ex racing colleagues who go, I’d love to get back there or to the Irish races.
jimjamFree MemberRoad racing is where F1 was in the 60s. The bikes are too fast for the circuits and competitors and fans accept death as the norm. “He died doing what he loved”.
Eventually there will be a massive tragedy or a death toll that becomes inexcusable and it’ll have to be sanitised.j4mieFree MemberDue to various bad accidents over the past few years, rallying has been forced to improve its attitude to safety and limiting where spectators can go to watch. I really fear for its future as the future competitors/marshals/organisers turn up to the “excellent views of the action” which are actually pretty rubbish and it puts them off. A large percentage of people I know have given up with it.
I think all Motorsport will go this way in the near future and it’s only a matter of time before the TT etc is looked at in the same way.
DefenderFree MemberIt will only end, if there aren’t enough riders that want to undertake the challenge and/or there aren’t enough spectators anymore?
I can’t see either of those happening anytime soon, thankfully!
It’s THE major event on the Island and brings in thousands of people and millions of pounds each year, and being a ‘British Protectorate’ they can more or less do what they want to?
The safety aspect has certainly increased over the years, from what I’ve seen over the years since I first went 38 years ago until now.
The one thing you can’t change significantly are the roads, they are arguablely amongst the best maintained in the world, but the stone wall, earth banks and trees etc.
I want to go back again in two years time if I can 😀alanlFree Member“He died doing what he loved”
That always strikes me as a very strange thing to say – ‘he loved sliding down the road at 100+mph, with one second to see the brick wall he was just about to hit.’
It should be more like he died whilst taking part in the sport he loved.
I have a friend who has raced it for years, now he only does the classic races, as, he has now realised, he is just not sharp enough to control the bikes any more. He had a near fatal crash 4 years ago, and said then that was the end of his racing, but he has since got back into it.
Not anyone can enter – you have to be pretty good to get in. Lots of pre-entry races need to be completed at a reasonable level.SuperficialFree MemberThe thing that I struggle to understand with my risk-averse, life-is-precious viewpoint, is that you could transplant the track somewhere else but remove the drystone walls, the fences etc and replace them with run offs, gravel traps and tyre barriers. The speed, skill, finesse required to win would be the same. It would be the same race with a fraction of the danger.
Clearly I’m missing some point or other. But the trade off is way too big for me to understand why people put themselves in that sort of danger.
hammyukFree MemberGo on then Superficial – find them somewhere 33 miles long with run offs, gravel traps and tyre barriers……
Oh and the elevation changes, camber, jumps, etc……milkymanFree Memberhere’s my POV, as I say I do like to watch it a lot more than I do F1, I just find it a lot more exciting, but every year some one is killed and with that brings a life changing event for friends and family, if this were to happen in F1 then I think changes would be made, its a sport at the end of the day,
I don’t know how the organisers could change it to make it safer with out making it dull but I do feel there has been to many lives lost, I think now the bikes are to fast for the course, average lap speed of 133mph and doing 200mph at certain points on the course is mind blowing
I think to be a rider there you have to be very brave and skill full. and also extremely selfish, I see it time and again where they say he died doing what he loved, Im sure the next of kin would say he loved doing it but I didn’t want him to die doing it,I cant get my head around risking my life when I have a wife kids mum dad gran etc.
I love riding my mountain bike, but I would not do it if I thought there was a chance I was going to die doing it, yes there is a chance I might come of but knowing me id only be doing 20-25 mph so a lot less risk
both F1 and the TT are at the edge of motor sport, F1 because of the tech involved in the cars, and the TT because of the nature of the course and the speedwhat I would like to see is F1 more exciting to watch and the TT made safer, maybe both sports should have a look at each other and see if there is any thing they could do
dragonFree MemberI think the TT could improve safety while not ruining the event. For instance are haybales, and exposed marshalls really the best they can come up with in the modern era?
jimjamFree Memberhammyuk
Go on then Superficial – find them somewhere 33 miles long with run offs, gravel traps and tyre barriers……
Oh and the elevation changes, camber, jumps, etc……Even if they could find somewhere or build somewhere it wouldn’t be the same. The spectator’s proximity to the bikes, and the bikes to walls, banks etc amplifies the impression of speed and it’s all part of the spectacle.
An F1 car doing 190mph down the straight at Monza looks controlled. The same speed on the Sulby straight reminds of those wing suit guys flying through gaps in rock formations.
teenratFull MemberCameron Donald has the perfect analogy ‘Track/circuit racing is like rock climbing with a rope’ ‘Road racing is like rock climbing without a rope’.
The TT is what it is, if the riders don’t like it, then don’t ride it. They all know what they are taking on and the risks.
How can you make the TT safer without fundamentally changing what it is? Put padding on every wall, lamp post and building over a 37 mile length?
Its not just the TT though it is road racing in general. Look at Simon Andrews RIP and Malachi Mitchell Thomas RIP at the NW200, Guy martins big spill at the ulster and Billy Redmayne RIP at scarborough and also dont forgot that Joey Dunlop, as good a rider as he was, was killed riding a 250cc machine.
The other thing is that many of the top riders have a point they are prepared to push to – maybe 90% of what they could do. They don’t ride beyond the point of control. Put in more safety measures, will the riders then push upto 100% and beyond their maximum point of control? I reckon if this was the case, there would be alot more accidents at the TT, and therefore, potentially, more deaths.
5thElefantFree MemberThe thing that I struggle to understand with my risk-averse, life-is-precious viewpoint, is that you could transplant the track somewhere else but remove the drystone walls, the fences etc and replace them with run offs, gravel traps and tyre barriers. The speed, skill, finesse required to win would be the same. It would be the same race with a fraction of the danger.
Clearly I’m missing some point or other. But the trade off is way too big for me to understand why people put themselves in that sort of danger.
You are missing the point. Our mums told us motorbikes were dangerous. That was why we bought motorbikes.Doing dangerous stuff is a basic drive. TT riders just have the upper end of that drive.
uselesshippyFree MemberYes, the TT is dangerous, but it is what it is. Everybody there knows the risks, and it’s not like you can rock up and have a go.
There’s a chance you could die riding your bike, admittedly its much smaller, but you still ride your bike.convertFull MemberI don’t have a problem with folk doing dangerous stuff. I look at tt riders, free climbers and wingsuit flyers with great respect knowing I have made different choices and could not do it even if I had the skill to attempt it. My issue comes when those putting their life on the line feel pressurised to do so (or push harder than they should) by sponsors or in pursuit of life changing financial gain. I’m thinking of events like Redbull rampage that feels to me that it might have crossed that line. There should only be one voice in the head of anyone weighing up if such risks are justified and as soon as money gets in there too stupid things happen.
There again, if this lawsuit is successful in F1 where safety is taken pretty seriously I would have thought the insurers of the TT would be taking a big gulp before underwriting future events. There is plenty that the IOM TT could do to make death more avoidable (it’s just not financially practical or desirable) so I can’t see they would have a leg to stand on in such a case.
dragonFree MemberYes, the TT is dangerous, but it is what it is. Everybody there knows the risks, and it’s not like you can rock up and have a go.
The riders might, but do the marshals and spectators standing in close proximity. Already we’ve seen 2 marshals injured this year and spectators have been killed in the past. To me it just feels as though the organisers aren’t doing enough to reduce risk.
ChewFree MemberTo me it just feels as though the organisers aren’t doing enough to reduce risk
What do you suggest?
Its road racing, there will always be trees, traffic lights, walls houses etc… You could go circuit racing, but thats just not the same.
Motorsport is dangerous, it says so on the back of the ticket.
Riders, marshalls and spectators know this and attend on the basis that accidents will happen, but no one is being forced to go.ghostlymachineFree MemberRestrict the power or power/weight, make them focus on frame, handling, tyres, brakes.
Then when lap speeds are back up where they were, restrict the power again.
It’s been done before in other motor sports.
ghostlymachineFree MemberAnd FWIW, having ridden most of the course (not during TT week!) and watched on bike footage and so on, theres masses that *could* be done to the course too.
But then you get into silly/expensive things like turning peoples front gardens into gravel traps.
agent007Free MemberThere are sports that are WAY more dangerous than competing in the TT yet no one wants to ban them or remove most of the risk. High altitude mountaineering, technical diving (mixed gas, rebreather stuff), BASE jumping etc. The TT is pretty safe in comparison!
ChewFree MemberRestricting the bikes wouldnt make any difference. Theres as many incidents on the smaller bikes as the bigger bikes.
legendFree Memberghostlymachine – Member
Restrict the power or power/weight, make them focus on frame, handling, tyres, brakes.
Then when lap speeds are back up where they were, restrict the power again.
It’s been done before in other motor sports.
You’re going to encourage the teams to try and increase corner speeds then? And that would be safer??
oldmanmtbFree MemberIn respect to restricting power John Mcguinnes still holds the 250 lap record of about 118 mph and that was quite a few years ago on a bike that was probably only producing 75 bhp and tyres etc have improved significantly in that time – in reality you might find that smaller bikes carry more speed on certain sections and hitting a stone wall at 150 v 180 is academic- improving the road surface improves safety but that’s about all they have to improve
jimjamFree Memberhammyuk
“What tyres for the STW Nanny State…..”
Okay so what’s the acceptable annual death toll limit for the TT?
Probably about five competitors a year? Three marshals? Three male spectators and maybe two children? That sound about right?Personally I’m ambivalent about it. I think people should be allowed (within reason) to do what they want, but I don’t think death should be an acceptable reality of a major spectator sport.
CountZeroFull MemberThe thing that I struggle to understand with my risk-averse, life-is-precious viewpoint, is that you could transplant the track somewhere else but remove the drystone walls, the fences etc and replace them with run offs, gravel traps and tyre barriers. The speed, skill, finesse required to win would be the same. It would be the same race with a fraction of the danger.
Clearly I’m missing some point or other. But the trade off is way too big for me to understand why people put themselves in that sort of danger.Go on then. Find somewhere in the world, with exactly the same characteristics and geography, but without the buildings, walls etc. Let us know how you get on; I, for one, won’t be holding my breath.
As for making the TT as safe as F1, simple; put an extra pair of wheels on the bikes, surround the rider with a crash cage and bodywork, and you’re sorted.
‘Course, what you’ve ended up with is a sodding car!uselesshippyFree MemberThe locals, and all the thousands of spectators that go to the isle of man, love the TT. They are all aware of the risks and dangers of it, and are happy to accept them.
If your not, don’t go.
Stop being upset for other people, and risk ruining something that many other people love dearly.brFree MemberYou are missing the point. Our mums told us motorbikes were dangerous. That was why we bought motorbikes.
And like bicycles, they are basically unstable; ie they fall over unless they are moving.
And I LOVE all forms of two-wheels even though I sold my last bike after +30 years of riding (only had one for the last 10 years for commuting, and don’t have a commute any more).
brFree Memberand nothing on a motorcycle beats going flat-out up the mountain from Ramsey, chased by an RC30 🙂
thegreatapeFree MemberI would have thought the insurers of the TT would be taking a big gulp before underwriting future events.
What insurance do they have?
The topic ‘TT safety V F1 safety’ is closed to new replies.