Morning all, I guess old habits die hard. So, trying desperately not to step on the toes of the “conclusions” thread, now the dust has settled the rider embark on stage 22, a hungover slug our of Paris, I ask you all some simple questions.

Your heros and villains
Your high and low lights
Your general thoughts

And in exchange, I’ll throw up a few pics of the last stage, there’s loads more here if you want a glance.

The jersey’s.

Through the Grand Palais.

The end of an era, Tommy Voeckler bows out.

Loved these threads all the way through, interesting to hear other forumites views and punts.

Thanks hugely Lunge, top job.

Plenty of thoughts, I’ll be back shorty.

Heros: Barguil, Dan Martin,
Villains: The jury for DQ’ing Sagan
Highs: Froome cracking on the airport slopes
Lows: The crashes and abandonments affecting the race. In particular Kittel having to abandon while wearin green and Geraint Thomas not finishing after not finishing the Giro either.
General thoughts: Too many flat stages, not enough summit finishes for my liking. Froome may well smash the vuelta too.

edit. and just to add my thinks to Lugne for doing the threads..

Massive thanks for the threads lunge, I haven’t commented as I don’t really have much to add but enjoy reading them every day.

And as for everything else, ferrals puts it perfectly to be honest.

Best bits – A resurgent French, Dan Martin and Simon Yates
Finally some decent attacks on mountains and people having a go

Worst bits – the injury list – Cav’s is sounding fairly nasty

Sky dominance is a little dull as most of the other teams are not putting a single focus team together.

I’d echo the not enough summit finishes, descending to a flat sprint just isn’t great racing for me

Again, thanks to Lunge for these threads and to everyone who’s contributed to them. I’ve not done so myself as generally don’t know what I’m talking about but I’ve enjoyed the speculation of others.

Heros: Barguil, Kwiatkowski (for some epic efforts in the mountains)

Villans: The number of DNFs either through disqualification or injury. IMO the points jersey competition was poorer for it. Matthews may have caught Kittel, Sagan may not have romped home with it and Cav may have been in better form that his pre-tour fitness suggested but we’ll never know. Not really a fan of Matthews but it’s a shame for him that people will be able to say he only got green because if the above. I know this is all part an parcel of a 3 week race but having it goes to Paris would have been far more exciting

Wondering what inrng will have to say in his “how the race was won” feature. Despite the atypical route it was a pretty typical way to win a Tour. Make time in the ITT and defend in the mountains. Just that the lead was slender due to the short TT (he didn’t even need the second longer TT) and the need to defend less due to lack of summit finishes.

A few race winning moments stand out, though none a decisive attack. The time gap in the first ITT set it up. Being on the right side of the split into Rodez and getting yellow back. The save up the hill after the broken wheel. And generally staying upright and out of trouble.

Regarding Bardet. Read a quote from him saying he didn’t spend much time training on his TT bike as it’s a bit boring. I hope he gets his head around it and gets some miles in before next year!

The parcours wasn’t right but it was good that the ASO is trying to mix it up a bit to avoid it just being Froome, Quintana and Bardet exchanging blows on big mountains. There’s a bit of damned if you do, damned if you don’t but overall I think they will have learned a valuable lesson for what hasn’t been planned for 2018 (the first few stages are already defined).

Few of my thoughts:
[list][*]Bardet needs to learn to TT on a course that doesn’t reward his excellent bike handling over TT ability (i.e. stage 1 this time) unless he wants to become the new Andy Schleck[/*]
[*]Contador needs to know this was his swan song at the Tour and not drag it out another year[/*]
[*]Mountains and sprint classifications should definitely be more based on the finale not sprinting out of breaks to hoover up points. The mountains classification was well deserved and before Kittel left the points classification was looking to be exciting up to the end.[/*]
[*]The Giro-Tour double is buried for a generation I think. Unless they go to the Giro as a potential winner and a super-domestique at the Tour, nobody will ruin their TdF for a top-10 at the Giro.[/*]
[*]The Vuelta looks like it could be a Froome win as it seems a lot of people won’t be going, Aru is utterly useless when it comes to tactics (Astana have no depth in their team anyway), Bardet and Uran have either never been or never had any success and who knows with Nibali[/*]
[*]The transfer announcements starting in a week are going to be interesting. A lot of names moving and the Quintana leaving Movistar rumours won’t die down despite being in contract for 2018[/*]
[*]Tony Martin is doing something wrong in training since he went to Katusha. His season has been a mess and he was nowhere for the TdF. Big money move failing? Those Alpecin adverts so embarrassing he doesn’t want to be seen in public?[/*]
[*]Dan Martin has ridden a blinder but I don’t see him going much closer towards the podium without a GC supporting team. The Yates brothers also don’t seem to have much support at the sharp end of a stage, but it’ll be interesting to see them both at the Vuelta especially if Chaves is there too; that’s a pretty formidable trio in mountains[/*]
[*]Where was Steve Cummings? I saw him at the back a lot but it seemed that the Tour was perhaps a bit too much so soon after his injury this year despite being on good form for one-day races[/*]
[/list]

I’ve enjoyed watching it, well I’ve enjoyed it being on in the background whilst I’ve done other stuff, for me it’s been good, but instantly forgettable.
Is Froome a definite for the Vuelta?

Criticising Froome for the manner of the win is like criticising Alistair Cook for not hitting enough sixes. He knows his strengths and he plays to them and he’s phenomenally successful as a result. And to stretch the analogy, Cook probably can hit sixes but he doesn’t need to. Froome showed he has gas in the tank when chasing back up after his mechanical, and maybe he could have attacked his rivals but again, why would he risk that when he can win by scoring singles with the occasional four. (OK, enough of the mixed metaphors)

On the ‘not enough mountaintop finishes’ I suspect frankly that’s logistics; the tour is so big now and there aren’t enough mountain tops with the right setup to get a caravan, thousands of fans, all the teams, etc. up it if there isn’t then a way back down it afterwards. I suspect if you wanted to stage finish on the top of appropriately structured mountains then the overall number of climbs would have to reduce cos you can’t then use them in the middle of a stage.

Froome may well smash the vuelta too.

He seems to have peaked/been peaking in week three, the oppo is sparse – I reckon the timing is excellent to get a runner up on SPOTY…

Many thanks lunge for these threads – great stuff.

theotherjonv – Member
Criticising Froome for the manner of the win is like criticising Alistair Cook for not hitting enough sixes. He knows his strengths and he plays to them and he’s phenomenally successful as a result.

I think for me part of it was bad luck on the weather splitting the field so much on Stage 1 which set the race up as Sky defend rather than get out there. There are plenty of mountains with decent logistics up there so it did seem like they tried to mix it up a bit. Leaving the ITT (or even TTT) till later on it would mix that part up a bit more.

It does also open up the debate as to the difference between respecting yellow and hiding behind it.

Each stage should have a racing story.

Mountain stages and TTs always do one way or another, but flat stages need to either be critical to the green jersey narrrative or bumpy enough to suit a rouler or breakaway or have enough chance of crosswinds to keep everyone on their toes.

Sky (in fact all the GC) got to treat stage 19 as a rest day and while that was good for the break it wasn’t a tense compelling breakaway win.

Each stage needs to be a potential GC or green jersey losing stage.

Loved it (and these threads) as always.

I do wonder it a second team got organised like Sky whether that might actually make the spectacle worse.

So in the end Bardet held his place by a second. He’s very lucky the 20 second penalty wasn’t applied for the illegal feed.

Apart from that, I think I want the power meters to be banned from racing. I have a small doubt in that I don’t want to block progress but I think this would open things up more than most of the other ideas. I want to keep the radios as to me that adds more than it takes away.

Highlights for me are the French countryside (as ever), AG2R, Bardet, Contador, the Sky team professionalism and Lunge.

Apart from that thanks for all the expert opinion on here. It makes it a million times better for me being someone who’s watched for almost 30 years but never had a better insight than what is discussed here each day.

Contador needs to know this was his swan song at the Tour and not drag it out another year

I’d be happy to see him back. Doesn’t seem to be a GC contender anymore but would be good to see him lose time early on and go for stage wins.

The Giro-Tour double is buried for a generation I think. Unless they go to the Giro as a potential winner and a super-domestique at the Tour, nobody will ruin their TdF for a top-10 at the Giro.

Is an interesting one that. Contador’s attempt, I don’t think he would have been at the level to win the Tour even if he hadn’t done the Giro, much like this year. Not sure what happened to Nairo really, undercooked for the Giro and overcooked for the Tour, or just got it all wrong this year? Froome’s probably the only one who could have a serious crack at it right now, maybe when he starts thinking about his legacy he might give it a go, but then he might be a bit past his prime.

Tony Martin is doing something wrong in training since he went to Katusha.

Said much the same last year and he went on to win the Worlds ITT (though this years course probably not one for him!)

Where was Steve Cummings? I saw him at the back a lot

He’s always at the back if he’s not off the front. He gave it a go when there was opportunity but it really wasn’t a Tour for breakaway guys like Steve. Few stages to give it a go, and some of the mid-mountain ones were probably too mountainous.

Heroes…
Dan Martin – for fighting so hard despite that awful crash
Uran – for taking the win while stuck in that huge gear, and for keeping cool and riding his own race throughout
Bodnar – got his reward after that valliant defeat
Eddie BH – same

Villains…
Inconsistent judging decisions

Highlights…
Awesome scenery this year
I liked the lack of summit finishes
Bardet & Barguil’s wins were cool

Lowlights…
Losing too much top talent to injury/DQs

Conclusions…
Next year’s Tour is gonna be a real corker if the other teams can get their shit together with their GC efforts (and if the parcours isn’t too hilly for Tommy D)

Is Froome a definite for the Vuelta?

He said yesterday he wants to win it, so looks very likely.

Contador needs to know this was his swan song at the Tour and not drag it out another year

I wouldn’t presume to tell him to pack it in, but it’d be good to see Trek throwing a more credible candidate for GC into the mix.

The flat/flatter stages should have more intermediate sprints to encourage attacks and try and get away from “There’s a break, they’ll get the intermediate points but be swept up with 5Km to go and the big boys will get the major points crossing the line”. IIRC there used to be two or three intermediate sprints on these stages some years ago.

Apart from that, I think I want the power meters to be banned from racing.

I don’t know what difference those calling for a banning of power meters think it would make. Do they really think that pro’s can’t judge their output to within a few watts anyway.

Like it

How about on the super flat stages 50 points on the line but 5 equally spaced 10 point sprints? Keep the interest up

How about on the super flat stages 50 points on the line but 5 equally spaced 10 point sprints? Keep the interest up

set up, cameras, timing etc on top of that sprinting does make a mess of the GC and could lead to more mid race problems, a decent halfway points sprint that means getting in the break rewards somebody for green would mix that comp up without hitting the others

I quite enjoyed it and would probably end up echoing comments above if I did a full heroes and villains thing.

However, lows:
That crappy CGI swimming and running thing in the Grand Palais. Just awful

He said yesterday he wants to win it, so looks very likely.

I guess it depends how tough the route is then…I think there’s better riders than Froome when it gets really steep.

That crappy CGI swimming and running thing in the Grand Palais. Just awful

All I can think is that it was supposed to be a Tricolor (red, white & blue). Very odd though.

I don’t know what difference those calling for a banning of power meters think it would make. Do they really think that pro’s can’t judge their output to within a few watts anyway.

+1

No point in banning PMs or radios IMO. I’d rather see the parcours tinkered with to create a more interesting race, and I think this year’s could have been amazing if there had been a stronger GC field/fewer injuries.

Sky dominance is a little dull

People like to grizzle about Sky, have just heard somebody moaning on radio 4 asking where the drama is etc but that is not down to Sky getting worse or somehow dropping the ball but other teams and riders stepping up to match them. They are not far off, they just need to find those marginal gains 🙄

It’s been a memorable tour. Favourite moment has to be EBH getting a stage win and Dan Martins grit.

So, heroes:
Dan Martin for lighting things up in the hills
Michael Kwiatkowski for services to yellow
Chris Froome for a consummate and professional tour
Thomas De Gendht for attacking at every given moment
Team Sunweb for brilliant work with both Matthews and Barguil
Uran, for sneaking up on everyone.

Villains:
Cannondale Drapak for bringing a GC contender and not managing to have either Rolland or Talansky support him
Bardet/his management for not practising his TTing, a GC rider needs to do it all, you can’t ignore such a key skillset.
The small and vocal group of fans that booed Sky and Froome.

Re. the route, I admire the organisers for trying something different. They’re on a bit of a hiding to nothing when you have 3 riders within a minute going in to the last stage and people still moan. I think whatever you do, Froome/Sky will train for it, it’s up to the other teams to train better and knock him off.

I don’t know what difference those calling for a banning of power meters think it would make. Do they really think that pro’s can’t judge their output to within a few watts anyway.

Well Chris Boardman thinks it would make a difference and he’s been using them for decades. His take was that it should be like on the track, where riders can run a power meter, but can’t have visible real time data displayed.

I guess it depends how tough the route is then…I think there’s better riders than Froome when it gets really steep.

There are a few steep summit finishes… but there’s also a 42k ITT. Difficult to see anyone capable of getting enough time on Froome on those summit finishes not to lose it all and more on the ITT.

Well Chris Boardman thinks it would make a difference and he’s been using them for decades.

Well he would know better than me! It would be marginal but maybe at that level it might make a difference.

Apart from that, I think I want the power meters to be banned from racing. I have a small doubt in that I don’t want to block progress but I think this would open things up more than most of the other ideas.

Another +1 for there being no point in banning power meters. They train with them (you can’t ban training aids like that practically), they know their bodies. It’d add a percent either way I’d imagine and in reality almost all of them would be hindered not knowing the power output at various points. I don’t believe that Quintana or Voeckler don’t know when they can give it more or when they’ve gone too deep despite not relying on power meters to race.

Well Chris Boardman thinks it would make a difference and he’s been using them for decades. His take was that it should be like on the track

Boardman occasionally has an opinion that isn’t what other people agree with or is just wrong. He said before the Tour that Froome was under prepared and it wouldn’t end well for him at the Tour. Obviously he couched it in all sorts of careful phrasing but he wasn’t right then.

They’ve done some good things with the parcours but the overall shift needs to be to move the sprint stages to the middle of it all. Start off with some mountainous (or at least lumpy) stages, THEN bring in the flat sprint stages. At the moment a whole bunch of super-fresh sprinters are going for wins early doors and the event was far poorer for Sagan and Cav and, later on, Kittel not being there.

Tire everyone out a bit first!

Warren Barguil was ace the way he won the Polka-Dot Jersey.
Lunge’s threads have been superb.
The ITV4 commentary team are brilliant.

Dan Martin could have been well up there if it wasn’t for that crash with Richie Porte. In fact Porte himself would have been great to see up there in the GC and BMC giving Sky a bit of competition.

I’m not sure how the more points for more sprints on flat stages would work out. Aside from the logistics of having to have 5 or 6 photofinish camera setups, if too many points are on offer too often, then breakaways would never be allowed to form.

It’d be all shut down by the sprinters teams so the points never get hoovered up and while having lots of properly contested sprints would be exciting, there’s also the potential to lose lots of riders from the crashes that often follow particularly if the GC teams have to be up the front so if there is a crash they’re not right at the back and behind a potentially damaging split. You can’t have the 3km rule at every sprint point.

I like breakaways – and I know most are destined to fail and are only really there for sponsor’s exposure anyway, but I also like the attempts to bluff and counterbluff about how fast a break can really go at the end; the sport would be the worse without the potential for a Fabian powerup or a Jens 200km solo, etc.

In fact Porte himself would have been great to see up there in the GC and BMC giving Sky a bit of competition.

I expected to see more of Roche once Porte was gone. It may have been too late for a top 10 but he was never near the sharp end despite being in that role for Sky a lot of the time.

Apart from that, I think I want the power meters to be banned from racing. I have a small doubt in that I don’t want to block progress but I think this would open things up more than most of the other ideas.

Another +1 for there being no point in banning power meters. They train with them (you can’t ban training aids like that practically), they know their bodies. It’d add a percent either way I’d imagine and in reality almost all of them would be hindered not knowing the power output at various points. I don’t believe that Quintana or Voeckler don’t know when they can give it more or when they’ve gone too deep despite not relying on power meters to race.

I don’t think they’ll all get it right all the time. There’ll be an element of doubt or optimism in certain riders that will start off attacks that are a little bit less predictable and will need to be defended. Of course, some will cope well but if Bardet had stuck with PM data on Saturday his podium place would have been more comfortable.

A question, given that Landa finished 90 seconds down on Uran, if Froome wasn’t there, would he have won? Would he have put 90 seconds into the other GC riders in the hills?

And I guess by extension, would he have won even with Froome there? Would he have put 2+ minutes into Froome over the course of the race?

Landa worked for Froome if he was leading he would have given it a shot, but all would depend on the team.
The question was being asked by BMC as the only real team doing just GC and supporting the leader fully

I expected to see more of Roche

He’s been more a domestique for approaches rather than the high mountains. He did look to have bulked up a bit whenever I saw him too. He was in some of the breaks on some of the stages, was having a go. The mid mountain stages probably just that bit too hard, much as Cummings said.

And I guess by extension, would he have won even with Froome there? Would he have put 2+ minutes into Froome over the course of the race?

Impossible to say really. He did get dropped on occasion when some of the attacks went, but then came back when it slowed down. But then he’d been setting the pace prior to that so going with an attack wasn’t the expectation. I don’t think we got to see how strong Landa would have been on the attack. And we only very briefly got to see how strong Froome was under pressure.

I think the Grand Tours should have an extra 1 or 2 weeks between them, give the riders a greater chance to recover, the Grand Tours would be even better if we see the best GC riders having a re-match over two or all three making the tours more of a series of races and not just solely train for and compete in Tour de France, giving the other two more of a standing.

I loved Barguil’s dominance in the mountains, he is 26, so has 3-4 seasons at top hopefully and him and Bardet can go to “how to TT” camp together.

Want to see Dan Martin be given a good crack at it with proper team support, he kept battling despite the crashes, injuries and bad luck and needs to be rewarded for that.

I would really like them to get rid of the Paris final stage or at least re-think it, getting a bit stale watching the same crit race that is actually a parade, i think it should be a proper stage, with proper racing that finishes in Paris but doesn’t do the circuit race, or takes in more of the city so the racing is there til the end, imagine the Bardet/ Landa fight yesterday if they hadn’t sat up for the view and it was a proper race day for all?

And…

I want to see all the top teams that have a budget of more than £20 million be forced to have a women’s team, ASO will keep putting on lame ladies events until the money men put them under pressure more. Team Sky stated years ago they wanted a women’s team and haven’t.

Imagine if we could watch all three Grand Tours with ladies racing 2 hours ahead of the gents? It would take some time to build up to money/ organisation/strength wise, but why can’t they race the final 7 stages or race the 3 weeks over 50% or 70% of the distances the men ride in the same way the ladies play same number of matches, but less sets at Wimbledon.

I think La Course whilst a 5% step in right direction, looked a right mess mostly and pitiful that they riders were Tweeting they had to get changed in the car park as there were no facilities for them

Tweeting they had to get changed in the car park as there were no facilities for them

Pretty sure the men get changed in the team bus or the hotel. There was no hotel where they were, what happened to team buses?