Tory Scum

Please could we have an epigrammatic summation from the main protagonists on this thread – something that’s pithy which puts your POV across but is no longer than a sentence?

twoundred

EDIT Ahhh, balls – beaten to it.

Of course social mobility exists and anyone can become anything.

However anyone who thinks its as easy for a kid from a broken home of drug addict parents who are in their third generation of worklessness as it is for a child of rich parents who can send their kid to private schools is sadly deluded.

For the former it will allways be a really tough struggle just to get a decent education and a decent job, for the former it will be much much easier.

Please could we have an epigrammatic summation from the main protagonists on this thread – something that’s pithy which puts your POV across but is no longer than a sentence.

Tories are scum.

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I’m definitely NOT a teacher!

Please could we have an epigrammatic summation from the main protagonists on this thread – something that’s pithy which puts your POV across but is no longer than a sentence.

The conservative party and their supporters place profit and achievement above social justice and fairness amd perhaps unsuprisingly they are defensive when probed on this and revert to the thoroughly discredited position that anyone can do well regardless of their social status and background.

Are you deliberately mis-quoting me? I said you can have mobility but not motion, there’s a distinct difference. I’m not going to explain it again.

Just to clarify I meant you can have mobility while not having motion is possible. mobility – ability, motion – movement.

Of course social mobility exists and anyone can become anything.

However anyone who thinks its as easy for a kid from a broken home of drug addict parents who are in their third generation of worklessness as it is for a child of rich parents who can send their kid to private schools is sadly deluded.

For the former it will allways be a really tough struggle just to get a decent education and a decent job, for the former it will be much much easier.

I agree.

Coffeeking: “Dear God (sic), I’m arguing with an idiot.”

Why?

The conservative party and their supporters place profit and achievement above social justice and fairness amd perhaps unsuprisingly they are defensive when probed on this and revert to the thoroughly discredited position that anyone can do well regardless of their social status and background.

Just to play devil’s advocate here…

Or you could look at it that they place personal responsibility above state responsibility and wish to encourage people to take charge of their own life and make something of it rather than finance people’s laziness. At no point, as far as I can interpret their policy, do they attempt to be unfair towards those genuinely in need but who try. They do tend to discourage people who don’t want to make something of their life and encourage those who do. The only way to do that for a government is financially through incentives and the opposite, and through education. The general assumption here is that people should want to better themselves and go out and find or make their own opportunities. It does risk some folk being left out, and needs careful attention. The current lot may or may not be meeting that need but the left will always suggest they’re not. It makes the assumption that if you’re in the mire you’re try to make your way out of it, this is not always true (maybe because you can’t see a way out of it) and those who don’t will always shout that it’s not fair.

The contrary is the lefty view where we throw cash at folk in the hopes that they’ll appreciate it and try to do more for themselves, and we expect those at the top to give away more having made their way there. The general assumption of the left is that people have been born into cash and could never have made it themselves as the world is a horrible bitter place that people need helping out of. The problem I see with this is that people don’t want to do that job paying 100K if it’s taxed to the point where they’re taking home little more than those earning 40K and so on. If the taxation percentage increases there’s a discentive to aspiring to better things and self improvement (unless of course you can go WAY over the top and then the numbers get a bit pointless). This is SHOWN by the folk who are willing to sit at home on benefits rather than work for fractionally more, or willing to work the menial basic rate jobs for life because a slight increase in effort will only net them 1K and that’s ‘not social motion’, it’s slave labour…

There’s two possible descriptions to every ideology, each side will claim the other is evil. Sadly this is the stupid state we have in politics, where everyone is arguing to win votes instead of solving problems.

As a genuine thought, I wonder what would happen if society collapsed, the state didn’t exist and all traces of wealth, property and land record vanished, who would come out on top? I suspect the top X% and the bottom X% of our current society would collapse and die off and the remaining 100-2X% would start from scratch and get on just fine finding and making their own opportunities. For a few generations after that social mobility graph would look freaking awesome too despite everyone being up a creek 😆

Yossarian lost his job as a banker and is now a securitee guard, then?

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The contrary is the lefty view where we throw cash at folk in the hopes that they’ll appreciate it and try to do more for themselves, and we expect those at the top to give away more having made their way there. The general assumption of the left is that people have been born into cash and could never have made it themselves as the world is a horrible bitter place that people need helping out of.

Some massive straw men in there. However ‘The general assumption of the left is that people have been born into cash and could never have made it themselves’ is largely born out by the statistics (with some obvious exceptions – because amazingly, general trends don’t apply in every single case) that you keep claiming have no relevance.

the world is a horrible bitter place that people need helping out of.

The Tory world of dog eat dog and everyone out for themselves is quite a horrible place. Luckily we don’t all choose to see things that way.

As a genuine thought, I wonder what would happen if society collapsed, the state didn’t exist and all traces of wealth, property and land record vanished,

Well the people at the top now would still be at the top because they have all earned it through hard work, right?

Oh, and what would you say the reason is for the fact that the gap between rich and poor is increasing at an ever-greater rate (much faster under this government strangely). Is it just that rich people are getting rapidly cleverer and cleverer and working harder and harder? Or that once you’ve got money it’s much easier to make more of it?

is largely born out by the statistics (with some obvious exceptions – because amazingly, general trends don’t apply in every single case) that you keep claiming have no relevance.

Not really sure I follow, unless you’re quoting other stats I don’t know of here. All the stats show is that people stay on similar wages as their family, it doesn’t mean that they’re handed the positions or cash, only that they end up in positions that pay the same. It’s a large leap to assume they’re given everything. The stats do show that movement up from the bottom is poor, which isn’t good.

The Tory world of dog eat dog and everyone out for themselves is quite a horrible place. Luckily we don’t all choose to see things that way.

I don’t know, I quite like the idea of everyone out to make the most of themselves and do the best they can. I dislike the idea of purposefully trampling on those who are struggling and not at least helping them to make the most of themselves (prosperity for all is beneficial for all), but that negativity is not part of the conservative ideology that I can really see unless I think of the world as a bitter twisted place and interpret things negatively.

Well the people at the top now would still be at the top because they have all earned it through hard work, right?

No, as I said I reckon the top X would be knackered. Apparently you didn’t read far enough to see that bit.

Oh, and what would you say the reason is for the fact that the gap between rich and poor is increasing at an ever-greater rate (much faster under this government strangely). Is it just that rich people are getting rapidly cleverer and cleverer and working harder and harder? Or that once you’ve got money it’s much easier to make more of it?

I’d say it’s easier to make money when you have it. But I also wouldn’t discount the negative attitude of folk at the bottom losing the will to try (because I’ve experienced it). I just find it odd that people seem to assume these processes are mutually exclusive, as the far left and far right seem to, and it’s why I generally fall somewhere in the middle. I also don’t assume that taking money from the top and giving it to the bottom is helpful, there’s far better ways of structuring it (hence the fish/fishing comment above).

Coffeeking how do you account for the poor social mobility in yank land?

Coffeeking: “Dear God (sic), I’m arguing with an idiot.”

Why?
I think it comes easier to him than answering the questions I put to him 😐

Why don’t we just print enough money for everybody to have two billion pounds each and then everybody will be O.K., no?

Oh, hang on… er…

I don’t normally approve of posts like this, but aren’t we kind of going around in circles now? 😕

I dislike the idea of purposefully trampling on those who are struggling

Does it matter to you that those who are struggling are trampled on, simply out of indifference rather than purposefully?

I quite like the idea of everyone out to make the most of themselves and do the best they can.

So do I – I don’t see that as incompatible with having a social conscience and wanting to help people though. It’s certainly not exclusive to the Tory party as you seem to think.

I also don’t think people should be demonised and punished when they don’t always manage to make the most of themselves in difficult circumstances.

that’s not part of the conservative ideology that I can really see unless I think of the world as a bitter twisted place and interpret things negatively.

You claim not to have a political allegiance but you seem to ‘interpret things negatively’ where any kind of vaguely ‘left wing’ agenda is involved. I don’t see the world as a bitter and twisted place – but I see selfishness and lack of social conscience as negative things that this government is making worse.

But yeah darcy is right – just admit you are wrong and we can all get on with watching England get knocked out. 🙂

Tory scum….

OP ulterior motive cough Police 😉

Wonder where this thread would have gone if the headline was “teachers/council workers/nurses sacked days before pension date”

Actually, don’t answer that – I can guess 😉

Wonder where this thread would have gone if Jimmy Carr was a Tory 😉

hora – Member

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Scamper – Member

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Zulu-Eleven – Member

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Apparently the poor lads salary is below the minimum wage.

Now wondering where this thread would have gone if Julian Assange was a Tory rather than darling of the lefties 😉