konabunny – Member

is UKIP actually having a big impact?

Well it depends. Electorally they’re having roughly the same impact as the Greens. Current polling suggests that at the general election they’ll win no seats at all (defections aside) because of fptp. But they’re having a massive impact on the political debate.

(if you want to see who’s likely to have the biggest impact on the election, look left and north, currently the SNP stand to be the country’s 3rd biggest party.)

A lot of real nastiness on this thread. Those of you who are simply lobbing smart arse insults around for the fun of it – don’t. You’re more of a **** than Brand is.

Why do we have to tear people down when they try and fail?

is UKIP actually having a big impact?

Massive hit in the EU elections where they win elections. They then turn up dont vote, side with extremists to get more money and milk the gravy train for all its worth. All the while back home they bemoan the Westminster elite who do F all and are not like ordinary people….Pint anyone?

Given this I would say they have successfully transitioned to a mainstream party. You ?

Not yet, no.

But I don’t think any of what you and Northwind are talking about equates to “impact”. It’s stories in the paper over a short period but how has it had a substantive impact on anyone’s lives?

OH it is serious then..fair enough
One trick pony who a referendum would shut up and destroy [ win or lose] IMHO.
What they do highlight is how fractured the right wing are over Europe as they are torn between their love of free markets and petty nationalism/xenophobia/jingoisms.

I think UKIP will go but the right have a real issue over the EU which divides the parties

konabunny – Member

how has it had a substantive impact on anyone’s lives?

For some people I know, it seems to be making them feel more comfortable about publically being racist xenophobic shitebags. So there’s that.

Was the SNP not enough for them 😉

For some people I know, it seems to be making them feel more comfortable about publically being racist xenophobic shitebags. So there’s that.

So no, then.

Here’s the thing: if UKIP had had a real impact, then it would be a counterexample to put to Brand, as it would show that a dedicated but not wealthy group of organized antiglobalization people could have a real impact through the electoral process in the UK. But I don’t think you can yet say that.

What they have had success in is setting the agenda and making politicians take note of their views; especially the Tories. I assume this is sort of what Brand wants – organise and mobilise to change the politicians?
I would be surprised if there was not a referendum vote in the near future
I am pro the EU , just, FWIW but i would do it to take the wind out of their sails

konabunny – Member
a dedicated but not wealthy group of organized antiglobalization people could have a real impact through the electoral process in the UK.

Are you trying to describe UKIP here? Do you know who funds them?

Not really, no. But if they’re well-funded, that makes the “electoral politics works fine” argument even harder.

“What they have had success in is setting the agenda and making politicians take note of their views”

Right but at the risk of being repetitive: that’s not a real impact. It’s not substantive change outside “Westminster Village” (sorry for the cliche). That’s process, not outcome.

Given the westminster village* is where political decisions are made I am not sure how anyone wishes to affect change without affecting change in them/from there.
I would say they have got their issues – the EU and immigration on the agenda and very prominently so that the current govt are trying to do the things they want because they are losing VOTERS to them- this is what has driven the change VOTERS leaving them. If I formed a party to campaign for a free NHS protected for ever and in 15 years the govt were discussing doing this I am not sure how that “movement” could not be considered a success.

* tbh I think it is change in the more insular racist shires than the metropolitan elite [ forgive my cliche] that is the driver here. T

Yes UKIP are having a very big impact. They have demonstrated that immigration and the EU are very important electorial issues. IMO UKIP haven’t “set the agenda”, they’ve grabbed hold of issues which the public care about and the main political parties have been afraid of.

We have here again on this thread the UKIP-ers are racists, but surely an immigration policy which grants free access to Europeans who are predominantly caucasian whilst placing obstacles in the way of African, Middle Eastern, South Asian or Far Eastern people to gain access to the UK is inherently far more racist in it’s nature.

Russel Brand has benefited massively from our capitalist society which gives people sufficient financial rescources and free time to pay for and listen to his material. I frankly have no time for anarchists who advocate “radical change” outside our democracy. UKIP have far more credibility in that regard than does Brand.

JY – The Westmister Village is another mis-representative sound byte. MPs come from throughout the UK

Wow so we have a representative MP from each area…who knew?

Funny how its only London folk who dont get the reference innit

There is a london centric Westminster elite *that the only people blind to are the ones who share it with them

* ie they live and work there as do the machines of govt so they think more about what affects them than what affects others hence we get the HS2..gawd bless em

JY we’ll keep going round in circles on this forever. The phrase Westminster Elite is designed to stir up irrational anxiety, trying to reinforce an idea government is London centric and not run on behalf of or by the broader population. The funniest proponent was Salmond, a a career politician who happens to be based in Glasgow these days. The location makes zero difference.

Thanks for the view from London , now all you need to do is convince the rest of the country, from London obviously, that it is not London centric.

JY why don’t you explain to me how AS isn’t the Holyrood elite. he’s no different to anyone at Westminster. There isn’t a bigger fallacy than having regional governments making a single jot of difference, other than creating yet more government overhead. It just like the Brand fantasy of some mythical alternative system, one which doesn’t exist anywhere but is somehow going to deliver his idea of utopia.

It just like the Brand fantasy of some mythical alternative system, one which doesn’t exist anywhere

I’m a Brand fan of sorts.. I love what he stands for and that he’s making a concerted effort to challenge the accepted conventions, and that he seems to be at least making an effort to look into new ideas and encourage thought about change..

I’ve started watching his ‘trews’ broadcasts and between the ranting and silliness it seems (at least to me) that there may be a more serious side to what he’s doing.. for example the broadcast he did in the last week about localised farming as opposed to monoculture farming..

Is it possible that his seemingly tireless crusade could encourage folk to start looking at things from a new angle..?
To my mind his campaign seems to be aimed at forcing some of the issues that many are not clear about or choose to bury their heads in the sand about

Could his ideology become a movement and encourage some sort of momentum..?

😆 🙄

@yunki – anarchy and revolution aren’t new. He stands for getting as much self publicity as he can. That and promiscuity as far as I can tell. I see the two are related, one helps with the other.

What really irritates me is Brand is actually encouraging his primarily younger audience not to vote.

@scotoutes – you’ll have to be more direct with me if your comment is aimed my way. Salmond was the Westminster elite before becoming the Holyrood even more elite”. I used him as an example as he’s always using that phrase

jambalaya – Member

Yes UKIP are having a very big impact. They have demonstrated that immigration and the EU are very important electorial issues.

I’m glad you specified.

They’ve had an impact because they are ridiculously over represented in the news.

Once they actually have to do the job people have voted them in for, they have very little impact however. Because they’re usually not there.

jambalaya – Member

@yunki – anarchy

Anarchism will be to alot of Brands fans. The sex pistols, basically killed it off imo! 😆 (If you’ve ever seen john lydons comments on Brand, you’ll understand my suspicions there are correct! 😆 )

I wouldn’t class myself as an anarchist, but I do think there are some interesting ideas.

@Lifer I really cannot believe all this UKIP denial, its been going on here on STW for 2 years. UKIP have the votes they have because they are tapping into a real issue with voters, it really is very little to do with the Daily Mail or TV coverage. It’s been a material error from the other parties to trivialise the rise of UKIP and to brand them all nutters and racists. The UKIP voters feel they have a real issue/concern and for the main parties to be so dismissive just reinforces their belief that UKIP is the only party who speaks for them. UKIP is actually more sensible and is engaging in the UK democratic process whereas Brand just wants to be on TV/YouTube/Stage

@seos – EDIT can I just Google Rotten on Brand ? I think “Figgin in the rigging when there is f’all else to do” sums up Brand quite nicely.

Found it …

Video Link

EDIT2. I realised I had seen that before, he too derides Brand for his call for the young not to vote. A couple of quotes from the end of the video when discussing Brand’s book

Anarchy is a mind game for the Middle Classes, you can’t get anywhere without motorways.
He’d [Brand] have the working class living in cardboard boxes by the river, not him though eh ? He’s preaching all this from his mansion

My criticism of UKIP is not an endorsement of Brand.

They also engage with people with absolutely abhorrent views in their little right-wing circle jerk in Europe.

Nothing to say about their effectiveness when in office?

Ranked bottom in attendance out of the 76 parties with more than 3 MEPs.

3 of the 6 worst attending MEPs are from UKIP.

Farage has less than 50% attendance.

jambalaya – Member

aye that’s the one, most idiotic thing I’ve ever heard is john lydon trying to talk politics! 😆

****crazy conspiracy theory time.*** Were the sex pistol really a government plant to manipulate public perception of anarchism and equate it to nihilism! 😆

jambalaya – Member
He’d [Brand] have the working class living in cardboard boxes by the river, not him though eh ? He’s preaching all this from his mansion

If you want hypocrites look no further than Farage.

Complaining about the cost of europe, but not allowing his expenses (for less than 50% attendance, remember) to be audited.

@Lifer, I doubt anyone who voted for them cares if UKIP turns up very often at the EU. The vote is about getting UKIP some profile and funding, might as well take the EU coin really, its a form rebate for our contributions. I suspect most UKIPers would rather Farage turned up less than 50% of the time (I assume there is some minimum in order to collect the funding)

So not voting is okay now?

jambalaya – Member

What really irritates me is Brand is actually encouraging his primarily younger audience not to vote.

jambalaya – Member
might as well take the EU coin really, its a form rebate for our contributions.

How is it? If you really believe that no wonder Farage is laughing like a tit in every photo.

why don’t you explain to me how AS isn’t the Holyrood elite. he’s no different to anyone at Westminster.

WTF – we were discussing Westminster and i am saying it is an elite.One would expect me to argue the same there as well. Even when moving the goalposts/changing the debate you fail to be coherent. An impressive achievement.

There isn’t a bigger fallacy than having regional governments making a single jot of difference,

Lost me there are you saying he is in a power elite but he has no power and makes no difference?
Why dont you say what you think and ask me what I think 💡
PS Scot routes is laughing because Holyrood is in Edinburgh – what with it being the capital of Scotland. Anyway you were busy telling me who London types are not out of touch with the regions 😆 oh the irony 😆

UKIP is actually more sensible and is engaging in the UK democratic process

I doubt anyone who voted for them cares if UKIP turns up very often at the EU. …. I suspect most UKIPers would rather Farage turned up less than 50% of the time (I assume there is some minimum in order to collect the funding)

You are arguing they are engaging whilst arguing they dont care that they dont engage or vote BRILLIANT.
Your ability to contradict yourself is one seriously impressive skill.
I am genuinely in awe of it.

Farage will do anything to keep his nuts in the gravy train he so decries, while doing (under) half the work.

Farage commented on the recent alliance, saying, “I have found nothing in this guy’s background to suggest that he is a political extremist at all. He has joined our group to save us.”

Who could he be talking about?

The KNP leader said: “Semen probably is not wasted, because nature usually makes use of the material it has, and there is a hypothesis that the attitudes of men are passed to women by way of the semen which penetrates the tissue.”

“There is a very strong argument for this hypothesis, that now when [oral] contraceptives are much more in use, the women become much more independent,” he added.

He further believes that women should be denied the vote because they “want to be led by men”.

In his interview with The Observer, Korwin-Mikke alluded to further potential deals with UKIP. Though he evaded giving specific details, he suggested their recent cooperation could lead to closer work in the future.

“If we create our own group, perhaps Mr Farage can lend us a member of his party also,” he said.

Other outlandish claims made by Korwin-Mikke include the belief that rape should only be prosecuted if there is “some visible sign” of attack, because women frequently “pretend” not to want sex.

“Women usually pretend that they don’t want [sex],” he said. “The percentage of women who pretend that they don’t want to have sex, but they do want in fact, is about 30 or 40 percent.”

Jambalaya – I think it’s too simplistic to write Brand off so lazily..

He’s clearly had some very damning media attention, and said a couple of flippant things, but if you look a bit deeper than the mainstream TV coverage, what he’s actually talking about is pretty much common sense, and he’s trying voraciously to shake things up on a much more intellectual level than the tripe that was pumped out on prime time..

I think you could quite successfully argue that UKIP have not only taken account of the view of voters in terms of immigration and the EU but have also undertaken an element of thought leadership and encouraged people to develop and intensify these views in themselves.

what he’s actually talking about is pretty much common sense

Christ man you never came back did you brother 😉

Its hippy spiritualist pish light on rationality and high on aspirational tosh.

yeah..

I’m not gonna argue against that JY and I don’t think Brand is gonna solve anything, but he does seem to be giving a very loud, relentless and articulate voice to the cause of progressive thinking and change..

He may well inspire a future generation to be a little less, err…. staid and subservient in their approach to economics

To just write him off as a **** is a bit lazy IMO

Maybe… hopefully

jamj1974 – Member
I think you could quite successfully argue that UKIP have not only taken account of the view of voters in terms of immigration and the EU but have also undertaken an element of thought leadership and encouraged people to develop and intensify these views in themselves.

PARKLIFE!

But really? Party supporters agree with party ideas/party playing to the gallery shocker.

much more intellectual level

He’s not exactly Noam Chomsky is he?