147,000 signatures do you?

Nope since they miss that minor detail of having bugger all to do with wolves.
Perhaps if you find a petition that calls for the culling of their current predators it might be a bit more believable.

and once we have done all that we just need a way to kill off 160 million people and have a sustainable population <1M.

Where did the other 100 million come from? And since it was only being suggested in Scotland and Wales – thats about 8M combined, or if you stuck to Highland Council area only < 250K (and 1/4 of them are in the greater Inverness area), but over 30K sq.km.

That article also says they have a roaming distance of 200/400km per pack can you find anywhere in England with that amount of free range for them

Nobody suggested putting them in England! They manage in Germany with a higher population density.

The only way 5 miles could feed wolves is by constantly chucking in more prey… in the wild the pack move… split and change their behaviour due to food supply…

possible – i’ll leave the ecology modelling to those with the actual data – I think the 60k deer we cull each year to manage the population in Scotland mean there are areas with sufficient food without becoming a safari park, obviously those who profit from that cull may prefer their existing method though.

147tho people wow. I’m surprised by that tbh having seen reds with on the tv with pox and leprosy. The pine martins have been reinstated in some areas I believe. But it reminds of that Simpsons episode where they keep introducing animals to kill invading animals.
Pine martins eat the greys then run out of greys so they eat swans so we introduced big cats to eat the pine martins then shoot the big cats for sport*

*Using guns for sport is not really sport unless you arm the big cats with lasers

Why run around during the mountains after deer when sheep are so plentiful lower down and are often usefully penned up.

+1, and they’re good scavengers so they’re more likely to bypass live prey all together and make straight for plentiful tasty morsels in rubbish bins outside Chippies. The idea that any preditor is going to go after deer is a bit naive in the modern world, those things move way faster than any other source of Wolf food.

On another note, I think we’ve overdone it with Red Kites. I know Red Kites are supposed to be mainly scavengers but I swear rabbits have become rare in places and I’m convinced it’s because of all the effort to introduce Birds of Prey. (No evidence to back that up, beyond what I’ve noticed.)

Another thought, maybe we should reintroduce the Polio Virus, it’s pretty rare now and was common in years gone by…

Effing bonkers idea.

Trying to create an environment that never was.

In Scotland those hills used to be hooching with people and their cattle. The Highlands were not a wilderness.

You are either trolling or have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Start here http://www.snh.gov.uk/about-scotlands-nature/rocks-soils-and-landforms/ice-age-landforms/the-ice-age/ but please continue reading about the history of Scotland’s environment before spreading any more nonsense.

@Polly wolves don’t respect boundaries. so we tag them and if they wonder near a town we dart them and put back or worse a farmer takes it out with a shot gun.
That’s just more managed ecological projects for us stroke our ego with. If you want to kill/cull dear open up hunting rights or pay farmers to do the job then sell the meat and fir

Slight tangent. Imagine a small pack of wolves was discovered somewhere in a remote part of Scotland. Somehow they’d managed to survive unseen by man for a few hundred years.

Would efforts be made to protect them or exterminate them?

A wild wolf is basically a glorified stray dog. Do we encourage stray dogs?

Another question how many wolves to you need to maintain a viable breeding population? I’m thinking 7 or 8 isn’t going to be enough. 200? 2000? 20000?

I know Red Kites are supposed to be mainly scavengers but I swear rabbits have become rare in places

I’ve never seen a Red Kite take a rabbit, but I’m told they do take the babies and I know of at least one warren with a nearby family of Kites where there seem to be less rabbits around than there used to be 10/15 years ago.

But Kites are probably a better way of controlling rabbit population than Myxomatosis.

However, if they take baby rabbits, they’ll also take leverets, and I don’t think we suffer from an over population of hares 🙁

I read somewhere (and obviously it couldn’t be proved) that people learned coppicing from watching beavers. Except that with an established coppice stool, the beavers leave one or two poles at the centre as this promotes faster re-growth.

Bigjim – you’ve read about the clearances, then?

But it reminds of that Simpsons episode where they keep introducing animals to kill invading animals.

Its reintroduction/stopping persecuting animals though. As opposed to introducing them. Its a rather significant difference.

On another note, I think we’ve overdone it with Red Kites. I know Red Kites are supposed to be mainly scavengers

They are. They hunt under certain conditions but arent exactly built for it. Hence why I am fascinated by stevextc claim about them resulting in other raptors being endangered.
A buzzard can take rabbits but the growth in their numbers have had nothing to do with reintroduction schemes and even then I would doubt their ability to seriously depress a rabbit population.

They are. They hunt under certain conditions but arent exactly built for it. Hence why I am fascinated by stevextc claim about them resulting in other raptors being endangered.
A buzzard can take rabbits but the growth in their numbers have had nothing to do with reintroduction schemes and even then I would doubt their ability to seriously depress a rabbit population.

I did wonder if Rabbits are even being killed or if they’re just stuck under cover because there’s always some kind of broad winged BoP circling over head like a drone over Afganistan. Even if it isn’t gonna eat them they don’t know that and stay down.

Scotland needs to grow more trees before it starts anything else.

oh and so does England and Wales.

some kind of broad winged BoP circling over head like a drone over Afganistan

A good trick is to lie very still in the middle of a field. See how close the kite gets before it realises you’re still alive (or your bottle goes and you shoo it off).

Scotland needs to grow more trees before it starts anything else.

oh and so does England and Wales.

So why are we spending millions cutting them down to reinstate heathland?

Scotland needs to grow more trees before it starts anything else.
oh and so does England and Wales.

So why are we spending millions cutting them down to reinstate heathland?

Madness, Scotland and most of our uplands were tree covered many moons ago..

Heathland was sparse in comparison.

A good trick is to lie very still in the middle of a field. See how close the kite gets before it realises you’re still alive (or your bottle goes and you shoo it off).

I once slept on a Hillside and woke up to find a massive White shape gliding stationary into the wind over my face, close enough for me to hear the wind in its wings. I shreiked like a girl and the Owl (for that is what it was) flew off.

Im pretty sure that it had mistaken my eyes, nose and mouth (all that was visible in the DPM Bivvy Bag) for something edible. I’ve often wondered if I’d not woken would talons have gripped my eyeballs.

Im not sure on the red kites taking out rabbits for food but the rise of buzzards and magpies has had a large effect on the song birds where I am I see 10/20 very large buzzards every day and hardly no Hawks although the sparrow hawk has made a small come back this year. I know the buzzards don’t target small birds I think the have just moved them on. The magpies on the other hand are eating so many chicks and disturbing nests it’s a real problem.
As I said before if they want wolves and less deer just plant trees again not those pines that the Forrestry commission stick in the ground but the oaks and other hardwoods that got burn down under James V

Ninfan – in Scotland they are not cutting down trees to reinstate heathland. ( well maybe tiny bits I have never hear of. They are slowly replanting / regenerating the Caledonian forest in may parts of the highlands and from my recent walk its working. Rewilding is a stupid term really ‘cos when was it wild? I’d like to see the tree cover we had pre clearances restored in Scotland. Don’t know enough to say owt about southern England and what is happening there

I can see the attraction of having wolves – and if we had a land bridge to scandenavia I am sure they would be here now – but to deliberately create a wolf pack to roam free in the highlands? Never going to happen

ninfan – Member

Scotland needs to grow more trees before it starts anything else.

oh and so does England and Wales.

So why are we spending millions cutting them down to reinstate heathland? [/quote]

To re-instate heathland.

So why are we spending millions cutting them down to reinstate heathland?

http://www.snh.gov.uk/climate-change/taking-action/carbon-management/peatland-action/

Wolves? Why stop there? There are hippo fossils round these parts (yorkshire)…

The magpies on the other hand are eating so many chicks and disturbing nests it’s a real problem.

Why *are* there so many magpies at the moment?

Another question, what are the mechanics of introducing new speicies to the Uk? I presume I can’t just buy half a dozen bears and let them go in Brecon. So who would be in charge of the ‘letting wolves go’ project? Would they then have legal liability if a Wolf started eating sheep/chickens/vicars?

I’m open minded to the idea, depends on the details.

There was quite a thought provoking display in the National Museum of Scotland a couple of years ago, imagining that wolves were reintroduced to an area to keep the deer population under control. It focused on the benefits with wildlife tourism and rebalancing the natural ecosystem in a slightly biased manner, but it turned my view from “don’t be so stupid” to “it might be worth looking at”

If the wolves eat vicars surely it’s just an act of God?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/01/rewilding-conservation-ecology-national-trust

Wild boar are nothing but a pest we have 1000s of the Barstewards cause a shed load of damage everywhere and then you end up with the woods closed all the time so the hunters can have their fun.

Why *are* there so many magpies at the moment?

They’re the only animals versatile and intelligent enough to survive once humans have completely screwed their natural habitat? Sort of like the cockroaches of the avian world? Them and crows, seagulls and pigeons anyway.

We’re in a new build estate at the moment. The retired couple next door are trying to attract birds to their garden but all they are getting is crows (a murder of 9 most mornings hanging around) and magpies.

I like all birds, but would like a bit of variety, nothing but crows and magpies seems a little ‘Brothers Grimm’ for my tastes…

What’s the objective of ‘re-wilding’ the Lake District? Is it habitat creation, wildlife protection? Or is it so that visitors who earn their crust in cities can smile at the wildness and to alleviate flooding (is that not quite wild?).
Why are some communities/livelihoods forced out for re-wilding to please others, who don’t live there?

I’m not against it and there are some great examples of it starting – Ennerdale is just over the hill from me. However, the population isn’t decreasing any time soon, so what is it trying to achieve.

Hill farmers could do a great deal to help with flood alleviation etc and several here have already. Managing stock/grazing densities would help. Re-introducing Lynx and wolves however……..

wicki – Member

Wild boar are nothing but a pest we have 1000s of the Barstewards cause a shed load of damage everywhere

Tasty tasty pests.

and then you end up with the woods closed all the time so the hunters can have their fun.

So hunt them. Win win.

Wild boar Humans are nothing but a pest we have 1000s of the Barstewards cause a shed load of damage

boxelder – Member
What’s the objective of ‘re-wilding’ the Lake District? Is it habitat creation,

Yes

wildlife protection?

Yes

…to alleviate flooding

Yes

Why are some communities/livelihoods forced out for re-wilding to please others, who don’t live there?

Where are/were these communities that have been forced out for re-wilding…?

(I’ve heard that the NT(?) bought a small farm, high up in the Lake District, but nobody got forced out)

The National Trust own loads of farms in the LD. Not really into re-wilding though are they?

I guess what I’m trying to say is that the Lakes isn’t just a National Park for it’s scenic beauty. There’s a cultural heritage etc that has hill farming at it’s heart. Hill farming is in decline anyway, but what will re-wilding bring for people who live here?
I’ve a degree in Environmental Science, so I’m not oppose to it – just not happy to accept that ‘wild’ is necessarily good.

Ennerdale is certainly ‘nicer’ now.

boxelder – Member
The National Trust own loads of farms in the LD. Not really into re-wilding though are they?

They bought one a year or so ago with more or less that specific aim, it’s caused some alarm…

Lot of townies conjecturing and pontificating on this thread, eh?

The reintroduction of predators will happen several centuries after you stop gamies shooting Hen Harriers. There are plenty of other problems with land management and ownership that need resolved first.

I’ve just read Feral by George Monbiot. Its worth a read, he basically says if we stopped grazing on some land it would rewild itself and be fantastic for wildlife.

Scathing about wildlife trusts and National Parks etc who claim their grazed land is some type of wilderness. National Parks in other countries are much more wild than our own and we have MUCH less true wilderness than other European countries.

Not so sure about wolves on a small island like this.

The beaver experiment worked though

We can always do with more beaver.

With the amount of scumbags out ‘hunting’ deer, badgers, sheep and anything else that moves with their dogs not sure wolves would stand much of a chance. Their locations would be found out and then the scum would move in.

It’s a stupid idea anyway. What was the population of these islands the last time we had wolves here? Maybe we should cut back the number of people first.

This thread perfectly presents how this discussion gets derailed.

Suggestion: Easing off the intensive grazing / draining / shooting / dredging in some upland / lowland / marshy areas, offering plants and critters help where practical / cost effective.

Response: Wolves!?!?

I presume I can’t just buy half a dozen bears and let them go in Brecon.

Dammit! That’s my plan in utter ruins now then.

I have a recollection of a tv programme featuring Aubrey Burl Manning (Ancient Talking Landscapes or something, oh 10-15 years ago) where he stated that most of the BI deforestation took place during the Neolithic.

On the other hand I might just have been of my tits on something….