“Unused” land in Wales tends not to be as unused as people think, and definitely not as continuouse and in a uniform blob as people think.

Re: removing hill farms/farmers in The Lakes etc and them needing subsidies……..
They’ll survive without subsidies, they’ll just have to spend less time and cash on keeping walls nice and tending woodland, removing bracken etc.

The thing about those upland farms is they were never really profitable in the sense of supporting families, they were more to subsidise and men would also work in mines, building railways etc so the levels of stock would go up and down depending. Then when subsidies came in they were farmed more intensively.

It’s nonsense, primarily because the one thing they don’t want is anything “wild”

Take a look at the lowland heaths and commons of the UK – over the past fifty years they truly have been ‘rewilded’ – huge areas of common land that pre WW2 were subject to agricultural grazing, along with coppicing and collection of firewood have been left pretty much abandoned. Mainly covered in dank, low value scrub or decrepit woodland, the effort over the past decade has been to clear this back to open Heath and maintain with grazing – two thing leading this, SSSI/SAC/SPA status for birds like Nightjar and Dartford Warbler, and HLF funding. The environment these birds thrive in (along also with reptile species) is as far from wild as you can imagine, it’s an artificially maintained sub-climax community where they have to run around fighting fires every summer.

As for the northern ‘rewilding’ again, they want anything but ‘wild’ – they again want to maintain a romanticised idyll but this time of Caledonian woodland, in the false belief that a few wolves can keep check on the deer population, again, all they will end up with is patches of sterile floored woodland and shite low value scrub that burns itself out every few years.

Nobeerinthefridge – Member

Deer and Livestock – given we don’t have a lot of them about

Eh? Scotland is bloody polluted with deer!

Sorry, by “We” I meant Wales – we do have some deer, but not huge numbers.

My post was very Wales centric

The Lakes was a working environment for centuries – quarries, mining, bobbin mills, farming.

What do we have now? A denuded, heavily managed landscape that is the opposite of wild, and which is a significant contributory factor in flooding downstream. Get rid of the sheep and bring back the trees.

maccruiskeen

Its not simply about tourism – I’m saying the tastes as to what to ‘conserve’ ( or recreate) echoes the tastes we have as tourists.

Surely what to conserve is based on what’s already there (deer) as much as “taste”? If you already have to manually cull deer it makes a certain amount of sense to have an animal do it for you.

A tourist, for instance, would love the idea of other tourists being deterred.

Proportionally that type of tourist would be in the extreme minority. Consider the amount of people who will drive through an area of natural beauty vs people who will hike through.

over the past fifty years they truly have been ‘rewilded

I dont think rewilded and abandoned ex agricultural land are the same.

I dont think rewilded and abandoned ex agricultural land are the same.

And I don’t think you know what you are talking about

Let’s bring back bears while we are at.
It’s not that the animals have no historical context here it’s just the UK has moved on a bit. And tbh the way the general public see any carnivorous animals bigger than a hamster as a direct threat to themselves and their gardens it’s never going to work.
Scotland has the most room but I don’t think wolves respect boundaries and city limits, the cat population might get cut down a bit I guess.
Now personally I would love to see the “wilds” of the U.K. Retuned to huge Forrest areas and all the animals that belong within but it’s never going to work.

Ninfan – wrong on the reforesting – it is working, there is a lot going on at the moment and its beautiful as well as biodiverse. Its not plantation forestry and some of the more mature bits are now being defenced

As regards big predators – I’d like to see wolves etc but there is almost no chance of this happening. One landowner wanted to fence off a huge part of his estate and put in wolves, bear and so on but the big sticking point was land access. to do it without fencing off huge areas would mean the wolves would come down to where the sheep are and take out sheep – far easier to catch than deer

13th floor – there is a lot of what you explain happening on the more enlightened estates / community owned estates

Let’s bring back bears while we are at it

This was actually suggested on the programme, and the speaker said he was all for it.

Other than it being completely unrealistic, I think I am too. I bet it would make the air ambulance’s job a lot easier! 😉

And I don’t think you know what you are talking about

My phd and post doc research on habitat restoration would suggest otherwise..but hey you crack on

Apparently part of the reintroduction plans is the return of Neanderthals

What do you mean “return”, Homo sapiens?

I think the idea of bringing wolves back is to balance out the deer population. And the sheep obvs.

For anyone scared of bears, watch this………….

Bearwalker of the Northwoods

My phd and post doc research on habitat restoration would suggest otherwise..but hey you crack on

In which case you would know that describing lowland heaths and commons as “abandoned ex-Agricultural land” is utterly bonkers, and you’d probably also know about the huge amounts spent on clearing post war scrub woodland to return them to their former state, and about the efforts that the FC are making to bring unmanaged woodland back into management, You might also know how many of those commons are still subject to active commoning (e.g. of the three commons covering several thousand acres near me there is only one active commoner, to the point where the wildlife trusts are hoovering up money to reintroduce this ‘agriculture’)

It’s nonsense, primarily because the one thing they don’t want is anything “wild”

Take a look at the lowland heaths and commons of the UK – over the past fifty years they truly have been ‘rewilded’ – huge areas of common land that pre WW2 were subject to agricultural grazing, along with coppicing and collection of firewood have been left pretty much abandoned. Mainly covered in dank, low value scrub or decrepit woodland, the effort over the past decade has been to clear this back to open Heath and maintain with grazing – two thing leading this, SSSI/SAC/SPA status for birds like Nightjar and Dartford Warbler, and HLF funding. The environment these birds thrive in (along also with reptile species) is as far from wild as you can imagine, it’s an artificially maintained sub-climax community where they have to run around fighting fires every summer.

As for the northern ‘rewilding’ again, they want anything but ‘wild’ – they again want to maintain a romanticised idyll but this time of Caledonian woodland, in the false belief that a few wolves can keep check on the deer population, again, all they will end up with is patches of sterile floored woodland and shite low value scrub that burns itself out every few years.

Completely agree….

Even if we were to roll back to say pre-Roman Britain the total population was “a few hundred thousand”

Don’t forget we need to flood huge marshes and anywhere isn’t a marsh is in-penetrable woodland.

Then of course the pre-Roman animal population was from from indigenous… we’d need to kill of all cattle, horses and sheep…

Post Norman we’d need to somehow get rid of rabbits…. that has proven challenging …. but we could bio-engineer a virus perhaps that kills grey squirrels – it will doubtless work as well as myxomatosis?

Those freakin Surrey Parakeets shouldn’t be too hard to kill.

and once we have done all that we just need a way to kill off 160 million people and have a sustainable population <1M.

I think we should start with the “back to the Romantic Wild idea” supporters…

In which case you would know that describing lowland heaths and commons as “abandoned ex-Agricultural land” is utterly bonkers

it would be but that wasnt what I was talking about, I was referring to:

over the past fifty years they truly have been ‘rewilded’ – huge areas of common land that pre WW2 were subject to agricultural grazing, along with coppicing and collection of firewood have been left pretty much abandoned. Mainly covered in dank, low value scrub or decrepit woodland,

They are one and the same

All those three photos were being grazed up until WW2 – pre restoration much of it looked like this:

Ninfan – I’m curious as to where those photos were taken. One looks like the New Forest. Thanks.

Thursley and chobham commons slowoldgit (both within 40 miles of central London) Lots of nice bridleways at thursley, if a bit sandy, plenty of routes at CHobham

France is already ahead of us

Don’t forget we need to flood huge marshes and anywhere isn’t a marsh is in-penetrable woodland.

I think we do need to forget it on the grounds that the evidence would indicate it is complete rubbish.
Likelihood is most of the woods were cleared by a 1000BC and the pre-roman population was a tad higher than a few hundred thousand. Lowest would be nearer a million and possibly up to 4-5.

I think we should start with the “back to the Romantic Wild idea” supporters…

You mean the ones who go on about farmers being the guardians of the countryside and so on and want to keep it as a slightly screwed up homage to past times?

By the by. Got any evidence for your Red Kite threatening other raptors claim?

Nothing new I saw evidence of them in flaine 15 years ago. That article also says they have a roaming distance of 200/400km per pack can you find anywhere in England with that amount of free range for them. Reintroduce them and bears I’m all for it but turn Scotland and anything above the peaks back to hardwood Forrest.
If I did happen as soon as one foolish numpty tried to hand feed one and someone will and get bitten. all the wolves will be hunted by land owners or the tweed army.

I think we do need to forget it on the grounds that the evidence would indicate it is complete rubbish.

Likelihood is most of the woods were cleared by a 1000BC and the pre-roman population was a tad higher than a few hundred thousand. Lowest would be nearer a million and possibly up to 4-5.

Nope the Roman population reached 4-5M ….pre-Roman population was a few hundred thousand. Post Roman was then down again ….

That isn’t to say there was no land clearance but that the Oppidia were isolated and cl;eared farmland was an exception not the norm.

However, you can argue with dates and contemporaneous accounts as much as you like .. does it matter if this landscape of drained marshes and felled/copiced forests was 54BC, 1000 BC or 10,000BC ?

A copice or cleared grazing is neither natural or “wild”

there’s lots than can and should be done, there’s lots that’s already started in many places. Exciting times!

a lot of the weird negativity on this thread seems based on the false assertion that re-wilding enthusiasts want to take the world back to some imagined perfect point in history…

the national trust are planting/ have planted thousands of trees on the slopes above ladybower/derwent/howden. is this part of a plan to cull 66million people, and release cloned mammoths? no. is it based on the evidence that a few more trees will provide more/better habitat for critters than sheep-grazed hillsides, with the added benefit of slowing down the descent of rainwater? yes.

Nope the Roman population reached 4-5M ….pre-Roman population was a few hundred thousand. Post Roman was then down again ….

What sources are you using for this? Since all the sources I know although they state it is somewhat guesswork is minimum 1 million just prior to the Roman conquest. If you look at the figure for Boudiccas revolt for example (admittedly to be taken with a pinch of salt) that would take up a good third of your estimate.

A copice or cleared grazing is neither natural or “wild”

Actually there is an interesting argument to be made about why coppicing works and pre historic fauna.

Oh and once again where is your source for red kites endangering other raptors.

a lot of the weird negativity on this thread seems based on the false assertion that re-wilding enthusiasts want to take the world back to some imagined perfect point in history…

No, I think that the negativity is based on the fact that re-wilding enthusiasts don’t really want an outcome that can be sustainable on a zero-intervention basis, therefore by definition it’s not ‘wild’.

so use a different word?

They can’t use a different word, because then it loses all its romanticism and appeal with the idiot masses, and begins to look like just another financially unsustainable ‘jobs for the boys’ excercise bring thrown about by the watermelons.

nickhit3 – Member
I think its about turning the clock back further than domesticated cattle and managed agriculture. Think thousands, not hundreds of years.

I wonder where are they going to get the 1,000 metres or so of ice to cover the mountains with? 🙂

That whole landscape has only been visible for the last few thousand years and has been under constantly change.

Had a wee look at the “Demography of England” Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_England

This table is fascinating.

Year Population
5000BC below 6000
3000BC 100,000
1800BC 300,000
100BC 1,500,000

So 7000 years ago all the people in England could have been fitted into 7 Airbus A380 superjumbos. Bonkers.

Oppidia were isolated and cl;eared farmland was an exception not the norm.

My knowledge is about 15 years out of date, but isn’t there evidence that most of the Roman farmland reverted to woodland once the empire collapsed. The most common Anglo Saxon place name element is “Ley” which is specifically a farmstead clearing in the middle of woodland.

Whether naturally re-grown woodland counts as wild or not is another argument.

Slight tangent. Imagine a small pack of wolves was discovered somewhere in a remote part of Scotland. Somehow they’d managed to survive unseen by man for a few hundred years.

Would efforts be made to protect them or exterminate them?

Imagine a small pack of wolves was discovered somewhere in a remote part of Scotland. Somehow they’d managed to survive unseen by man for a few hundred years.

Would efforts be made to protect them or exterminate them?

Your question would be easier to answer if we transposed it to a Scottish loch. In which case, I think what we’d do is develop a huge trade in blurry photographs and specially-modified Landrovers with observation decks and night vision scopes for the tourists.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-24/tasmanian-tiger-sightings-spark-scientific-study/8383884
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/28/tasmanian-tiger-sighting-search-thylacine-queensland-australia

Given we have actual wilderness here in Tassie stuff like that might/could actually happen

You have to remember what a fickle beast the British public is too.

They’ll be all for rewilding up until the first grey squirrel gets shot/cat gets eaten by a wolf

The most common Anglo Saxon place name element is “Ley” which is specifically a farmstead clearing in the middle of woodland.

Didnt know that…Thwaite means pretty much the same in old norse.

They’ll be all for rewilding up until the first grey squirrel gets shot/cat gets eaten by a wolf

Evidence required.
Curious you mention grey squirrels though since there seems to be increasing evidence that reintroducing/stop persecution of Pine martins would result in the greys having a population dive and allowing the reds to recover.
Which is all, despite the shite thrown at it, rewilding is fundamentally is.
Rather than managing the land in line with an ideal which never existed (although minus providing proper employment by keeping modern machines) instead we should be taking a light touch approach.

evidence required

147,000 signatures do you?

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-gb/679/501/974/stop-the-uk-grey-squirrel-cull/

Reintroduction of wolves will never work. They’re too damned clever. Why run around during the mountains after deer when sheep are so plentiful lower down and are often usefully penned up.

Lynx would probably work though.