The Green thing … we didn't have it in our day ….

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  • This topic has 212 replies, 51 voices, and was last updated 6 years ago by  zokes.
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  • The Green thing … we didn't have it in our day ….
  • TandemJeremy
    Member

    tazzymtb – Member

    because molgrips is an idealist/envirozealot and they never have a grasp of basic human nature.He is a pale green – we need dark greens 🙂

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    because molgrips is an idealist/envirozealot and they never have a grasp of basic human nature.

    Rubbish. I am entirely a pragmatist.

    I did not quite phrase that properly though. I didn’t mean that we would stop being greedy, I meant that we would overcome our materialism.

    I strongly believe the consumerist society makes people less happy as too many people spend so much time striving to earn to buy stuff

    That’s kind of what I am talking about. However, there’s consumer goods and consumer goods. Washing machines are good, cos the housewife isn’t chained to the laundry any more…

    oldnick
    Member

    OK, dark green.

    Overpopulation is the root cause of the problem, and plastic bags have to be recycled.

    So…

    Tie plastic bags over the heads of as many people as possible before you get caught.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    molgrips – Member
    I didn’t mean that we would stop being greedy, I meant that we would overcome our materialism.

    Again, why on earth would you believe this to be the case?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    We are very slowly learning to do things better. Bit by bit people are learning to care about environmental issues. We legislate to protect the environment, lowly workers, we are aware of the plight of the third world and so on. Humanity is learning all the time.

    It’ll take a long time to get where we need to be, mind.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Fair enough.

    Similarly radical changes in human nature do occur frequently, but are rarely adopted on a global scale.

    I admire your optimism. 🙂

    I hope it’s not misplaced.

    Humanity is learning all the time.

    Hmmm.
    Humanity is certainly CHANGING all the time.
    To say that it’s learning might be considered a bit of a bold statement, without an awful lot of supporting evidence 😀

    zokes
    Member

    1) Modern society is built on capitalism.

    2) Capitalism relies on constant growth.

    3) The planet is a finite resource.

    Reconcile these facts, and you’ll get the answer….

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    zokes – your reduction blames the wrong cause.

    On a planet of finite resources, ANY consumption will tend to a complete depletion of resources REGARDLESS of the rate of change of that consumption. Also capitalism is not the same as the market allocation of resources – you’re conflating two economic principals.

    If anything the market allocation of resources is one mechanism by which substitution of scarce resources might extend the time before we run out of everything.

    Premier Icon kilo
    Subscriber

    If I am alive, which I think I am – I’ve had some tea and cereal so that’s a good sign, does that make me part of “the current generation” or at mid forties am I part of the past generation if so when did I pass?

    zokes
    Member

    your reduction blames the wrong cause.

    I think not.

    We need to consume less. Every time we do so, it’s called recession, and papers talk about the end of society as we know it. Governments who previously called for prudence and for people to save a little nest egg provide stimulus to get us consuming more again.

    The proof of this is that it’s mostly countries who’ve reached the stage of population stagnation or decline that seem to struggle the most compared to the boom days of the 60s. The population decline always seems to be reported as a bad thing by economists on the news, whilst it’s blatantly obvious that the very reason we have the issues we’re now facing is that there are too many people for the planet to support at current rates of consumption.

    On a planet of finite resources, ANY consumption will tend to a complete depletion of resources REGARDLESS

    Unless it’s consumed in a sustainable manner – food is the best example of this, but also anything that grows, really (wood / paper etc). Using less energy per capita would move us away from the one absolutely finite resource we do use – fossil energy. Apart from that, with due care, most ecosystems have the resilience to serve our needs if managed effectively.

    TooTall
    Member

    I use 100W incandescent lightbulbs, cos they’re three for a pound down Steve’s Bestsellers in Chrisp St market,

    If only you did the sums for this, you would see just how much money your ‘cheap’ bulbs may well be costing you over and above the modern alternative. Often the consumer only sees the ticket price and doesn’t look at the through life cost of anything.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    To say that it’s learning might be considered a bit of a bold statement, without an awful lot of supporting evidence

    We’ve progressed loads. We don’t burn witches any more, we don’t have slaves, we (mostly) don’t think black people are sub-human, that kind of thing. Most countries educate their kids regardless of their background, most will support you if you are out of work. Invading other countries to make your own bigger is generally frowned upon, as is slaughtering their populations wholesale (and yes I know about Iraq etc but that really is nothing compared to what used to go on). We don’t make ritual human sacrifices to appease gods much these days. And so on.

    We need to consume less

    We need to consume fewer material resources yes. Economies could in theory grow whilst reducing material consumption, I think.

    IanMunro
    Member

    If only you did the sums for this, you would see just how much money your ‘cheap’ bulbs may well be costing you over and above the modern alternative. Often the consumer only sees the ticket price and doesn’t look at the through life cost of anything.

    Alas CFL thing was at bit of a PR disaster with fantastically over-inflated claims on light-output and longevity.
    Mind you 90% of the arguments against not using them are pretty spurious too.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    CFLs vary wildly by brand too.

    TooTall
    Member

    I’m not talking about taking their claims at face value at all. I’ve done the sums myself, with reduced lifetimes. Still makes sense to modernise for most.

    juan
    Member

    we don’t have slaves

    Yes we do, it’s called delocalised labour or in europe minimum wages.

    mikey74
    Member

    I use 100W incandescent lightbulbs, cos they’re three for a pound down Steve’s Bestsellers in Chrisp St market,

    Last time I bought energy saver bulbs, they were 5 for a pound from Sainsburys

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Yes we do, it’s called delocalised labour or in europe minimum wages.

    I don’t think you realise quite how bad slavery was.

    derekrides
    Member

    My Parents and Grandparents were Edwardian & Victorian and their Generation spent most of its effort killing and blowing up each other on a global scale using heaven knows how much fossil fuel in order to achieve their end.

    Our lot (baby boomers) following the oil scare of the seventies really brought the green agenda upon the world so if we are talking generations, it was us lot that at least attempted to reverse the problem. OK at the same time a silicon revolution was upon us and there were loads of us and we all wanted more stuff.

    We all know sooner or later science will come up with an alternative to fossil fuels and lots of us believe it already has, it’s just a conspiracy of the Oil lobbyists keeping it secret.

    It is what it is, at our level all we can do is recycle buy electric cars (and bikes if you must) turn lights off try and educate the kids so they can lecture us as in the case of the OP and hope for the best, eventually this rock will get absorbed into the sun when it finishes its cycle and becomes a red giant, so nothing is forever so we might as well do our best to enjoy what we have rather than use it inflict hardship on others is my view and mention to the next generation that they’d better start thinking about finding another planet to **** up at some point in the future..

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    The planet has been here for 4.5 billion years. We’ve been here for 100-200,000 years and industrialised for about 200.

    The planet has survived eathrquakes, continental drift, floods, meteor strikes, worldwide fires and we think what? A few plastic bags?

    Over 90% of all the creatures that have ever lived, are extinct. We didn’t kill them.

    that’s what nature does, it makes things extinct and one day – guess what – it’ll be our turn.

    Pack up your sh1t folks, we’re outta here.

    Tazzy’s picture of the final scene from Planet of the Apes is instructive. The planet was perfectly O.K. It was people that had changed or gone…

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    The planet has survived eathrquakes, continental drift, floods, meteor strikes, worldwide fires and we think what? A few plastic bags?

    Yes, there have of course been lots of disasters over the millennia. However, lots of people and creatures died. We would like to avoid the death if possible. Especially if we’re causing it ourselves by just being greedy and simple minded. That would be a shame wouldn’t it?

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    Like the polar bears, you mean? The ice is disappearing because of global warming.

    Global warming is caused by sunspot activity and also a tiny bit by us. It’s going to happen anyway.

    The upshot will be that killer whales will increase in population size due to the availability of more open water and all those seals available for food that are no longer being hunted by bears.

    And so the little green-blue sphere goes bobbing along. One thing replaces another. Tum-te-tum-te tum….

    emsz
    Member

    S’funny we were talking about this last night ( post pub bolloxing session 🙂 ) the world could blow up tomorrow, someone was talking about some national park in the states might be a giant volcano!!

    Everything seems so fragile

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Like the polar bears, you mean?

    No, like loads of other things too. Habitat loss is the biggest problem. You know, cutting down trees and stuff. Or is that a natural process too?

    Global warming is caused by sunspot activity and also a tiny bit by us

    Says you.

    You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so I’d keep quiet if I were you. You’re making yourself look stupid.

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    I wonder what caused all the periods of “global warming” before we started industrialsing in the 19th century? Alien picnickers, perhaps.

    You know, cutting down trees and stuff. Or is that a natural process too?

    It is for beavers…

    talking about some national park in the states might be is a giant volcano

    The Yellowstone caldera. Blows into a E.L.E every 60k years or so. Last blow out – about 60k years ago…

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Global warming can have natural causes, and it can have man made causes. Why is this so hard to understand?

    Honestly, it’s like arguing with a 15 year old who thinks he’s the cleverest thing on earth because he’s discovered some amazing truth. Except he’s too naive to know that all the clever grown ups are ten steps ahead of him.

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    Who doesn’t understand it?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    You apparently don’t.

    People die naturally, but killing them is still bad, isn’t it?

    nealglover
    Member

    You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so I’d keep quiet if I were you. You’re making yourself look stupid.

    He sounds quite knowledgeable from what I have read so far ?

    juan
    Member

    I don’t think you realise quite how bad slavery was.

    I think you don’t realise how bad living on minmum wage is

    Edukator
    Member

    Interesdting to see that some still mainly attribute current levels of CO2 to natural cycles and events. The oil companies and power generators really did their propaganda well. However, a look at very long term graphs shows us heading for Creaceous levels with no natural explantion. Not good for humanity.

    rootes1
    Member

    the plastic bag thing was originally devised in places like Ireland as a means to prevent littering (bags in trees etc), but then got highjacked more widely for other causes (energy, materials etc)

    Interestingly it was reported in the waste press that Irelands consumption of plastic film products increased post plastic bag ban as people started buying more bin liners to replace carriers used for the same purposes..

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    If only you did the sums for this, you would see just how much money your ‘cheap’ bulbs may well be costing you over and above the modern alternative. Often the consumer only sees the ticket price and doesn’t look at the through life cost of anything.

    Well, let’s hhave a look shall we…

    Cheap bulbs from Steve’s Bestsellers in Chrisp St Market; the remnants of a load that have already bin made and imported into the UK. So might as well use em up tbh. Otherwise what do we do with them? Just lob ’em into landfill? Perfectly good bulbs?

    No. Because that would just be stupid.

    Last time I bought energy saver bulbs, they were 5 for a pound from Sainsburys

    What, 100w equivalent dimmable bulbs? I don’t think so.

    Yopu can get free 40+60w equivalent ES ones from the local council. They’re crap for anything more than a table lamp or cupboard. I want to see what I’m doing, not go blind cos of eyestrain.

    See, I have thought about it all. The cheap incandescent bulbs from Steve’s Bestsellers in Chrisp St Market have cost me a pound for the 3 I’ve used, plus a few quid for the leccy they have used, which is mostly a lot less than full power as I only have them up full whack if I need to read something/see what I’m doing propply.

    Yeah, I know they cost more to run/use more power/kill more polar bears, but do you drive a car? I don’t so be quiet. Mt carbon footprint is probbly still a good bit lower than yorn.

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    I don’t think you realise quite how bad slavery was.

    I think you don’t realise how bad living on minmum wage is

    Probbly not quite as bad as slavery, Juan…

    Peyote
    Member

    Interestingly it was reported in the waste press that Irelands consumption of plastic film products increased post plastic bag ban as people started buying more bin liners to replace carriers used for the same purposes..

    Probably a better idea TBH, the plastic used to make bin liners is designed to be broken down in a landfill environment (like black bin bags). The carrier bags shops give you are designed for a different purpose, so if everyone continued to use them as dog poo bags, bin liners etc… then there would bags full of this waste sitting around in landfills not breaking down because they’re were all sealed up nicely in a Tesco bag!

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    Tesco baygs disintegrate after a while. They crumble and fall apart.

    rootes1
    Member

    Tesco baygs disintegrate after a while. They crumble and fall apart.

    They have stopped making those now as they were (and other like them) the negatively affecting polymer quality in recycled films.

    Jamie
    Member

    Incidentally, did the OP every come back?

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