That Explorer doesn’t look as bad as I thought it would be when you posted it.  If the numbers are anywhere close to reality it’s not as inefficient as it looks.

It’s basically an ID4, isn’t it?

Same platform, yeah

That Explorer doesn’t look as bad as I thought it would be when you posted it. If the numbers are anywhere close to reality it’s not as inefficient as it looks.

Apparently they’ve learned from the mistakes of the Mustang (whatever they were – journo blurb)

Fairly generic, if inoffensive* EV interior

*horrible square steering wheel aside

I’m really trying to decide if I can justify an i4 through salary sacrifice.

It would be £525 a month which is a heck of a lot of money, that £525 includes everything.  Insurance, service, tyres, electric, the lot.  No deposit.

It’s a £62k car in this config and the plan would be to try and buy it at the end of the 3 years and so spec it to a spec I want to keep.

It seems incredibly indulgent.

Daffy, electric thrown in? I don’t get that on my salary sacrifice.

I justified my Audi Q4 with the following man maths:-

I currently have a Cupra petrol car and commute 40 miles a day. It needs new tyres front and back every year, but call it £80 a month. I pay pcp of £260 a month. Insurance works out at about £60 a month. Servicing, MOT and tax is approx £50 a month. Fuel costs me £300 a month. Essentially the same monthly cost as the Audi will be.

Yes.  Free charging at work and £300 worth of charge credit per year.  Not sure how that works TBH.

My current car will be 21y old this year and whilst it does very little mileage (<2500 miles a year) Tax, insurance, service, fuel cost the better part of £1500 and that excludes any repair costs to keep it on the road.  We do around 8500 as a family and that would mean 80% of that would then transfer to the i4, thus preserving the i3.  I think the delta between what we currently have and what we could have is still around £350/m which is a lot.  But it’s against a biased picture of a 21y old car.

It’s a £62k car in this config and the plan would be to try and buy it at the end of the 3 years and so spec it to a spec I want to keep.

If this is really the case what is the final payment and how does this factor in. i.e. if it’s 40K you need to be saving £1111/month over those 3 years in addition to the £525, for 30K you need £833/month in addition.

If you plan to get a loan at then end then how do you feel about the risk on interest rates in 3 years time?

Will you just end up flipping in reality?

It would be £525 a month which is a heck of a lot of money, that £525 includes everything. Insurance, service, tyres, electric, the lot. No deposit.

It’s a £62k car in this config

Sounds a bargain, last time I priced something up through our company salary sacrifice scheme it was a £55k-ish car and would have been over £700/month (without any electric credit and under 10k miles/year). I’d be surprised if there’s an option to buy at the end though

It would be £525 a month which is a heck of a lot of money, that £525 includes everything. Insurance, service, tyres, electric, the lot. No deposit

£525/month all in is a bargain.

Have a look at lease or PCP payments on a £62k car to gauge

It seems incredibly indulgent.

It is. But they are very nice.

I’m assuming based on the salary sacrifice and potential discounts offered to the lessor that the car will be around 50% value at the end of 3 years, so around £30k.  The plan would be to save half of that over the 3 years and then a loan at £350/m for the remaining £15k over 4 years.

I dont think many/any salary sacrifice schemes offer the ability for you to buy the car at the end of the term, I guess its possible that you might be able to, but I wouldnt count on it unless you have discussed that possibility with the scheme provider and confirmed it as an option.

Certainly the one we use at works does (Zenith, I think – which also clearly highlights my lack of research into my new car which arrived yesterday…I don’t even know the name of the company that does the scheme!) – quite a folk do buy the car outright, I just hand them back (I’ve no real attachment to a car as it just gets me distances without wearing out my footwear and dry).

About 6 months-ish before the car is due to be replaced, you get an email saying it is time to decide what you want to do – hand car back and pick your next car or buy the car outright.

Residuals on EV’s are rubbish. The £57k (so £50k is training in) Audi I was looking at was well over £100k when it left the showroom 2 years ago.

Was speaking to a guy at a second hand premium car dealers yesterday. He had a guy bring in a £160k Porsche Taycan – can’t remember if he said 2 or 3 years old. Gave him £55k

Those figures of depreciation fit into what the AA say. By 3 years you should expect your new car to have depreciated 60% of its original value.

Years ago I bought a brand new Mercedes AMG, one of my mates showed me that in the first month of its use I’d lost £15k.

Do agree though that EVs are losing a lot of money. I think that’s possibly due to them being overpriced to begin with. I’ve just got my etron q4, that’s £68,750. But I’d say that it’s realistically a £50k car. It’s just that the market isn’t quite right, possibly due to the salary sacrifice deals?

(Q4 turns up this morning….super excited!!!)

As I understand it, sales of new EVs is driven by company schemes like this due to tax incentives. Effectively, the state is subsidising EV manufacturers (through lost tax revenue) to prop up high prices of new EVs and fund the R&D. I don’t really have a problem with that. It’s partly what tax is for really. But it’s something to factor in when doing your man maths.

These incentives are only short term. It isn’t really a £62K car as they couldn’t charge that for it in a free market. So it could be worth a lot less than £30k in three years time and it’s worth considering how your maths would change if, for example, it was only worth £20k second hand.

I’m happy with low residuals as I buy my cars, it makes them nice and cheap for me.

It isn’t really a £62K car

Yes.  Because of the low BIK they are attractive on salary sacrifice schemes, which means the government isn’t taxing that income. The manufacturers are therefore putting up new prices, which they are then investing back in R&D and supply chain etc.  So essentially it’s a very convoluted way of the govt subsidising EV development.

Now this might sound like a good thing, but it’s a pretty regressive way of doing it because it’s the more affluent people who get the benefit.  Ultimately, we need the market correction for used vehicles because it’s the less affluent who will be buying these things used.

I dont think many/any salary sacrifice schemes offer the ability for you to buy the car at the end of the term, I guess its possible that you might be able to, but I wouldnt count on it unless you have discussed that possibility with the scheme provider and confirmed it as an option.

Ours is Zenith and does.  I’d really love a Taycan if it weren’t so wide (and expensive).

When I leased albeit personally, they didn’t promise me the option to buy and were pretty cagey about it. However turns out that they would have sold it to me, and at a decent price too if I had only enquired. But they didn’t offer without me enquiring first at which point it was too late.

It would be £525 a month which is a heck of a lot of money, that £525 includes everything. Insurance, service, tyres, electric, the lot. No deposit

Is that before tax or after? (i.e. is that 525 from your net pay or 525 from the your gross pay) if it’s from gross than that’s much cheaper than my companies scheme. Our scheme normally lets you buy the car at the end if you want it.

It’s £525 from my net pay.

Ah ok, still a pretty good number for that car – better than ours (Arval).

It’s the smaller battery version (e35?), but with a metallic paint, leather, Msport Pro Pack, Tech Pack and something else, so most of the options I would chose if buying myself., so still pretty decent.

I don’t need the extra range or the 0.3s boost to 60 – I’d rather have the toys and perhaps have to charge a little earlier.  .

I’m not one to comment on what other people spend their money on as we all have different priorities, but if I’ve got it right, that’s £6,300 a year for three years to end up with a car that could be worth less that the amount you’d have to pay to keep it. Have you looked at what it would cost just to get a taxi everywhere you want to go for three years 🙂

Have you looked at what it would cost just to get a taxi everywhere you want to go for three years 🙂

Owning a car isn’t necessarily just about getting from one place to another, just like owning a bike isn’t. It’s remarkable how much scorn is applied to cars on a forum where it’s entirely normal to spend three grand or more on a push bike.

And it’s not just about going fast either.  I love road trips. Most people I know dread three hour drives, I enjoy them.  I’ve been to North Wales a couple of times recently from Cardiff with a friend and if he’d offered to drive I would have fought him, because I actually want to do it.  It’s 4hrs each way, and I can do there and back in a day and it’s pure joy.  A significant part of this is due to the car, because I am comfortable, fresh, un-stressed and able to enjoy the road.  And I’m not even speeding.

that’s £6,300 a year for three years to end up with a car that could be worth less that the amount you’d have to pay to keep it.

This isn’t PCP, there’s no guaranteed final payment. The lease company will offer you whatever the market price is so it’s no different to buying a comparable car from a dealer but you know the car, you already have it and you don’t have to go car shopping.

but if I’ve got it right, that’s £6,300 a year for three years

Might be worth it if it keeps his salary below £100k (nice problem to have admittedly but the tax situation is stupid).

May as well have a nice car or go part time for the same cost.

We’ve got salary sacrifice at work too, but I can’t justify it based upon the ‘hit’ it has on my salary and pension pot, especially as I’m 55 next year – pension being more important. I have a 22 year old car, that costs maybe £50 a month in fuel (if I use it), £15 a month on insurance and a few hundred a year for maintenance.

I’m looking at buying a used ‘people carrier’ van next year rather than an EV – we don’t do enough miles to justify it, and the van will be used for bikes/camping/days at the seaside.

Might be worth it if it keeps his salary below £100k (nice problem to have admittedly but the tax situation is stupid).

How so?

I’m not one to comment on what other people spend their money on as we all have different priorities, but if I’ve got it right, that’s £6,300

It’s a question I’ve asked myself repeatedly – trust me, but cars are quite simply a depreciating asset – they continually cost money no matter what stage of life they’re in.

If I bought a car for £25k and ran it for 3 years, it might also depreciate by 50% and then I’d have to pay for likely two sets of tyres, two MOTs, 3 years worth of fuel or electric and 3 years worth of servicing, and 3 years worth of insurance.

£12.5k in depreciation, £1600 in tyres, £600 in service, £900 in insurance and £150 in MOT…£15750 – That’s assuming NOTHING goes wrong with it.  So the Delta between that car and the lease is at most ~£4k over 3 years so around £125 a month for a new car…and that doesn’t include fuel/electric

Consider my current car.  £1200 in fuel, ~£500 in tax, £190 service, £400 tyres, £190 insurance, so £2500, BUT that assumes nothing goes wrong.  Last year was okay – maybe £300, but the year before was ~£1400 and the year before that over £1000 and that’s with me doing all my own maintenance.  These costs would be FAAR higher if it were someone else.  Extrapolating and still ignoring my own time – That’s £11k of costs for my car over 3 years.  Delta of £8000 so £222 a month…

I still somehow struggle to convince myself.

As for Taxi vs car – I live in the middle of nowhere (8 miles from the nearest non-school bus stop, 10 to the nearest station) – But I do cycle most everywhere, but this isn’t always practical with kids, shopping, work, etc.

[molgrips]

molgrips

Free Member

Might be worth it if it keeps his salary below £100k (nice problem to have admittedly but the tax situation is stupid).

How so?

Because of the high effective marginal rate. Basically as you go over 100K you start to lose the 12k allowance.

[molgrips]

Might be worth it if it keeps his salary below £100k (nice problem to have admittedly but the tax situation is stupid).

How so?

I’m not in the £100k range.

I thought the £12k allowance was lost at £150k?

For me, the man maths kind of work out ok. But it’s an indulgence for sure. Similar to Molgrips I also enjoy driving. My commute is an hour there and about an hour and a half return. Traffic is pretty bad on the return journey. I want to sit somewhere nice and comfortable. Turn up for work fresh and ready to go. But I know I don’t need such an expensive car to do so.

Just done my first day out in the Q4, only 130 miles and getting 3.6 kwph. Loving the one pedal driving. Was genuinely apprehensive about using it, but it works amazingly well.

It was mentioned earlier that the comfort of the EV makes you drive differently, ok it was my first journey but sitting at 60mph in the left lane on the motorway seemed nice and comfortable.  I’ve not even tried to see what the acceleration feels like…..and I normally drive sporty cars. Town driving and the one foot driving was effortless. Looking forward to the commute tomorrow!

Trying to sort out all the online features and Octopus Intelligent is a bit of a mare though!

I thought the £12k allowance was lost at £150k?

Nope, for every pound over £100k you lose a pound of your personal allowance, and I think it’s worse if you have children.

Nope, for every pound over £100k you lose a pound of your personal allowance, and I think it’s worse if you have children

Not quite, for every 2 pound earned over 100k, you lose 1 pound of personal allowance, it does work out to an effective 60% rate of tax on earnings between 100k and 125k though

Tax over 100k IS odd…

By earning more you never TAKE HOME less than you would by earning less .. but the “earnt to take home” ratio curve massively messes up between like 100 and 115k….

Like woodster and molly…. I feel in fortunate enough to not have to count every pound spent, so appreciate the position in in to be able to make my driving commute (which I do with my kids several times a week) fun and pleasant..

I never realized how nice the EV driving experience is. I honestly would have stuck with the leaf if I could have “added CCS and another 40kWh” to the car!

It’s just a very relaxing experience.

The polestar is another step up, mind.

I’m not ragging it around by any stretch, but knowing you can plant the foot and be away at 2g means, weirdly, you don’t!

DrP

My commute is an hour there and about an hour and a half return. Traffic is pretty bad on the return journey.

What you need there is a car with automatic queue crawling. The biggest improvement in cars after electrification. It is fantastic.

I think my Q4 does some form of queue crawling. I’m not really sure what it does, but in town today it kept a distance away from the car in front, stopped when they did and accelerated when they did. The missus who is used to driving electric cars was driving at the time and did something on the cruise control thing, then it just did its thing.

Might be worth it if it keeps his salary below £100k

The flip side is how much extra money that would add to your pension….

My pensionable payscale is separate to my take-home, so salary sacrifice makes no difference to my pension input. Im very lucky  my employer puts in 15% if I put in 6%. I have 2 Tusker cars (Ioniq5 & MG4), for both of us and it all comes out of the worst tax bracket too, so extra worthwhile.

There is some pretty good man maths going on up there 🙂 A new car wouldn’t need an MOT in the first three years, it would be under warranty for any major issues and you don’t change tyres every year. But you are right to look at the total cost of ownership rather than just the sticker price.

There is no getting away from the fact that a more expensive car is going to cost you more than a cheaper one. The rate of change of tech in EVs does also mean that depreciation will probably tend to be higher than for an equivalent ICE car. At that price you are getting to the point where you could consider some kind of “classic” that wouldn’t lose much (and may even appreciate) over a few years.

But at the end of the day, if you have the money, all you need to decide is whether the car will give you more pleasure than anything else you could spend that cash on.

but with a metallic paint, leather, Msport Pro Pack

I’m not friends with the BMW M-Pro pack.

I tested a 320d sport before I got my last car- it was a nice drive. Due to the way the lease company has deals with BMW, I picked a colour and got a 320d MSport with Tech and Pro packs.

The ride is rubbish; road noise is intrusive. The jump from 17″ to 19″ really hits.

So I ordered an I4 40 and specifically begged them not to get the Pro pack.  I don’t need red brake calipers.

And the Harmon Kardon sound is nowhere near as good as the Bose on my old Audi.

First world problems? Not half.

The big upside I notice is vibration. When you spend all day in a car with a 4-cyl diesel the noise can be low, but the engine background vibration is really noticeable. And when you take it away it initially feels odd.