late last winter i posted asking for some advice on how to get my 400m swim time down, and one of the issues was roll turns – at the time the consensus being that it was’nt worth trying to learn them with the deadline i had.

well, i’m still swimming and feel its time i nailed them.

in the deepend i can almost do one, a lot of the time i tend to twist. in the shallow end i go to pieces.

i’m thinking of getting a noseclip so i can do some proper practice on them, can anyone give me any advice/pointers?

You have to twist, otherwise you’ll come up upside down 🙂

No, I can’t do them very well either. Biggest issue for me is turning too far away from the wall. I don’t have a problem with water in my nose, I seem to be able to crane my neck to keep my head the right way up just enough.

I can’t glide at all though, I run out of breath. I think popping straight to the surface gasping for air hampers my times.

Actually – this is a strange tip but it might help. Go running and do reps of 200m sprints with 30s rest. It massively increased my lung capacity really quickly. So much so that I hardly get out of breath cycling OR swimming. And not being out of breath makes controlling your breathing and doing turns etc FAR easier.

On One do a really cool noseclip which is made of steel, so has a really “lively” feel to it. It’s also pretty niche so you won’t feel like a commoner at the pool.

You still won’t be able to do roll-turns, but at least you can come on here and show us pictures of your nose clip and pretend that you can 🙂

Start doing the turn really slowly to get the movement right.

You do have to twist at some point to get face down again, I tend to do this before pushing off from the wall as you get a better glide that way.

Judging the distance before the wall to initiate the turn is critical, too far out and you have no push off whereas close in you can still make contact with the wall.

Try starting off with breast stroke to get the distance right.
( I know technically the breast stroke turn is not a tumble for racing )

And stick to the deep end until you get the turn tight and neat.

Don’t twist mid-turn, at most you should be on your side when you push off the wall – simply roll the rest of the way as you glide. Use your breathing as a cue, start blowing out of your nose then dolphin kick into the turn. You can also imagine that your head is following your final arm pull down and back.

For practise just try going in on your front then out on your back until you find the right distance from the wall and can get both feet planted equally.

Why do you go to pieces in the shallow end? Is the pool particularly shallow and you’re worried you’ll hit the bottom?

If that’s the case as then PeterS says don’t worry about the shallow end until you’re happy in deeper water. You’re not racing so no harm in a tumble one end and a touch turn at the other until you’re happy. With practise you’ll be able to turn in quite shallow water, I used to race occasionally in a pool with 2 very shallow ends, did my head in each time as I’d touch my shoulder on the bottom each end. I’m 6’4″ and the water was below speedo level (about 3 feet). Starting was entertaining. And it may be worth putting some pool time aside to ‘mess about with turns’ rather than only trying to learn them when you’ve gone to get some lengths in.

I think deft means to fly kick off the wall to get back up again, not sure I’ve ever seen anyone fly kick into a tumble? Unless you count a single strong kick as you go over? Personally I’d never learn to tumble off breast stroke.

Yeah a single fly kick, it doesn’t have to be huge but it will help as a ‘trigger’ for the rest of the turn. Watch Thorpy do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWVTnPGIm9Y

Don’t bother with a nose clip as you’ll become reliant on it. Once it falls off you’re screwed if that’s all you know. Just breathe out of your nose all the way round.

Before working on the turn, make sure you can somersault at least once in the shallow end from a prone position as it encourages you to use your hands to bring you round. It also helps with the breathing control.

http://www.swimsmoothforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=164
http://trainright.com/perfecting-your-flip-turn-how-to-be-smooth-graceful-and-avoid-cracking-your-heals-on-the-wall/
YouTube + freestyle flip turn

Closely watching the swimmers’ technique was the only reason I was interested the swimming in the Olympics 🙂

Timing and technique, doubt I could do one now. If you get it right will bring your time down dramaticaly.

If you go to a club get coached how to do one properly then practice on widths.

The shallow end is just a mental block nothing to worry about.

If you go to a club get coached how to do one properly then practice on widths.

Made a massive difference to me getting good coaching. You’ll get better advice at a club than on here.

If you don’t want to get proper coaching, there are probably multiple ways to do it, but a couple of bits of advice above differ from what we were coached, so might not be a good idea:

Before working on the turn, make sure you can somersault at least once in the shallow end from a prone position as it encourages you to use your hands to bring you round.

Whilst being able to somersault is good – we were taught not to use your arms during a flip turn: Last arm pull from the swimming puts both arms behind you, then you turn over, your arms stay in exactly the same position, ready for the push off. Head and body tumble in between the arms.

You do have to twist at some point to get face down again, I tend to do this before pushing off from the wall as you get a better glide that way.

Like someone else says above, we were taught to twist after or during the push off, never mid turn – do the turn clean and do the twist as you come off – look at the Thorpe video up there, he does feet touch, then push off and twist – he’s maybe slightly round before he pushes, but not much.

The bonus of that is that while learning, you can do turn, push off upside down, and just let yourself come up without a twist at all. Once you have that down solid, so you’re always coming off the wall straight, you can bring in the twist. If your pool has pull buoys or floats, you can start by doing this arms behind you, with two floats in your hands, head down, kick into the wall, turn, kick off, which helps reinforce the whole thing about arms not moving at all.

Oh, and the big thing that made them click for me, was realising that at the midpoint of the turn, if you look towards your feet
(don’t mess with where your head is, just turn your eyes down), you can see your feet heading towards the wall. Until you have turns super smooth, keeping an eye out for where your feet are means that you can see what you’re doing wrong each time, and see how well you’re planting them. It is tempting to think that you can’t see anything during a turn and you have to do it by feel, but keeping your eyes open helps you to learn much quicker until you can do it by feel.

No noseclip unless you’re allergic to chlorine (I am unfortunately – you’ll know it if you are – sneezing for days after every swim session). I have to wear one for pool swims and I hate it (hence probably 75% of my swims nowadays are outside), it is uncomfortable and a fiddle to put on.

‘Why do you go to pieces in the shallow end?’

just a mental thing, i tend to twist way more.

‘you look towards your feet’

love it, thanks.

the clip thing, i totally understand why not to, breathing and all is something i’ve really been working on of late, but i figure in learning with a clip on i can just flip and not worry about getting stuff up my nose.

club.. yes good call. the local swimming club is impossible to get into, they won’t look at my 9 year old because he has’nt got some level or another, never had a swimming lesson, but yet he can kick the ass of his mates who are in the club.

however local running/tri club does a weekly pool session and i’m trying to get in on that.

As above, if you can get some coaching at a proper competitive swimming club it will make a huge difference.

Times are quicker in 25m pools than 50m pools as done well the turns are faster than swimming. I’ve watched lots and lots of races at a reasonably high level which have been won and lost on turns. I suppose what I’m trying to say is that good technique and practice can and will make a big difference.

@gav – my local swimming club (speedo premier league) didn’t care about certificates, they just asked the kids to jump in the pool and swim up and down, they picked up my middle daughter’s potential at 8 or 9 – what I’d suggest is you ask for him to take a trial, provided he is motivated and wants to do it. If your son explains that to the coaches at 9 years old they should respond positively – swimming is as much about commitment as talent, possibly more.