[Closed] Strength Training & Cycling. Correct balance?

i'm pretty poor at this too. Having said that: that looks like a lot of reps & exercises.

depends on %ge of 1RM. and are you increasing weight or maintaining?

can you halve the work by splitting it into the two sessions, do half each time.

I do squats, bench and bent over rows 5x5 once a week and shoulder press 5x5 with low rep deadlifts the other weekly session. Cycling isn't great the day after so I time weights sessions accordingly (mon and thurs nights when I don't ride the next day). With warm up and down I'm in and out of the gym in 50 minutes.

OP you seem to be doing a lot of reps and a lot of exercises so I'm assuming relatively low weight. Maybe split your sessions a bit?

Gah, forum logged me out and stole my reply, i'll try again.

So that session is more than i'd do in one even if the gym was my focus not cycling.

I'd do deadlifts [u]or[/u] squats, not both in the same session.
Drop weighted situps since you are already doing a core routine
Drop kettle bell squats
Maybe consider dropping down to 2 sets on everything except squat/deadlift

I had a similar question about 12 months ago or so. There's a thread down there somewhere.

I now do weights twice a week - basically the same routine but I alternate squats and deadlift:
1 warm-up
2 squats or deadlifts (3x8)
3 barbell rows (3x8)
4 military press (3x8)
5 bench press (3x8)
6 chin-ups (3x8)
7 triceps dips (3x8)

I follow the stronglifts philosophy where if I achieve the full reps then I increase the weight by 2.5kg.

I'm ok with the results - I'm getting stronger (please note I am NOT training to improve my cycling just my overall strength)

On a recent ride I did find that since I'd not done much cardio work (i.e. Cycled) much in the past 4/5 months and the extra weight from training meant I really struggled to maintain my previous pace. I've started to put this right this evening with my first spin class but it'll be hard work to maintain both cycling fitness and the strength I've built up.

I do think it's possible to do both - this is the second winter I'm lifting heavy and for some reason I'm much less tired from the weights than I was......

depends on %ge of 1RM. and are you increasing weight or maintaining

It's tricky getting the balance right as you feel you want every session to count.

Based on what has been posted here, it seems like barbell squats & deadlifts are the only leg related exercises you need to do?

That means I can basically drop the walking lunges, kettle bell squats / swings. I can then keep the core work and upper body work and hopefully stop suffering from tired legs & glutes for days after.

That means I can basically drop the walking lunges, kettle bell squats / swings

Don't discount them. They all add something and for example even if you're good at barbell squats you will still benefit from KB squats.

I can bang out 5 x 5 barbell squats at 120kg with ease.

However double front rack KB squats with maybe 24kg KBs have my eyes almost popping out my head

^^ think I agree with just doing deadlifts and squats.

I'm following a plan from Joe Friel's Cyclist's Training Bible - I'm in maintenance mode now.

I do:
Warm up
3 x 6 step-ups
3 x 6 seated row
2 x 15 weighted twisty core thing
2 x 20 'upper body' (either chest press or lateral pull-down)
2 x 20 'leg weakness' (quad or hamstring exercise)
3 x 6 Standing row

It's my first year of doing this kind of training but I've noticed some gains on the bike as a result. Don't feel ruined by each session either.

A lot depends on your goals and what other training that you are doing.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/how-to-strength-train-for-cycling.html

[i]If you're struggling to recover between workouts, you're probably doing too much. Cut back on exertion, make sure you're eating and resting enough, and give your body the space it needs. Building strength requires listening to your body, but once you get the hang of it, the rewards are significant![/i]

Stick to doing full body sessions and look to hit each body part just once per session. Start with larger muscle groups first and worth through to the smaller ones for most efficient use of energy. Generally I'll start off with my lower and work my way up. Try to keep squats, deadlift and explosive movements like cleans in separate sessions otherwise you will tax the CNS too much and fatigue. Central Nervous System fatigue can be just as bad as Muscle fatigue.

Bare in mind lower compound work like squats, deadlift and cleans hit the core pretty hard to I would supplement core work that also promotes good flexibility in posterior, lumbar and hips.

Have some easy weeks and some tough weeks
Someone like Nino Schurter has blocks of training, 3 hard weeks then 1 easy.

I am a similar age and have been using weights for the first time over the winter.

I have massively reduced the amount of riding to accommodate the weights. I ached when I started the program but it is fine now.

The weights and reps increase/decrease depending on what phase of the program you are in. There are 3 to 4 sessions per week.

I have been doing it at home using free weights only, it is all from a book that I bought (because I had no idea about anything to do with weights).

I have weeks 1-12 on a spreadsheet, PM me if you would like me to send you a copy.

I have a re-test tomorrow to see if my 1RM has changed and then I move into the strength phase. The program eventually moves to a maintenance phase for the main cycling/racing season.

I have never done %ge of 1RM

Not sure if i was clear - i don;t work to a percentage either. but your session must be a lower %ge as your doing a lot of reps? 1RM can be worked out using a pretty simple calculation. I use Jefit which calculates it for you based on your workout.

It's tricky getting the balance right as you feel you want every session to count.

I spent most of December ill and missed all of my gym work and rode a few times. (normally i'd be lifting/ riding 6 days a week). I've been trying to catch up and really messed it up a couple of times. Felt great lifting upped the weight by big chunk - lifting it now problem. but then couldn't ride for 4 days after due tue stiff muscles.

My plan is to lift as much as possible until the end of the month, whilst still commuting/ social riding, then train the bike some more. I will probably compress lifting into one longer session and do another more ploy explosive workout.

Should qualify this all with i've not found the correct balance either though - so don't take my post as good advice!!

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/how-to-strength-train-for-cycling.html

Just so I fully get this, are people saying that barbell squats and romanian deadlifts are best done on different days or could I cut the reps, but increase the weight so I can do these on the same day?

Only reason I ask is that if I only do a single exercise eg, glutes, quads or hams a week I notice the DOMS more. Do those of you who do squats one session and deadlifts another not get DOMs?

In my current phase I do squats and deadlifts in one session (A) and the next session (B) the only real leg work is lunges (with dumbells).

One week I will do two sessions A and one session B, the following week it is two sessions B and one A. Usually performed Mon, Wed & Fri.

Based on what has been posted here, it seems like barbell squats & deadlifts are the only leg related exercises you need to do?

Deadlifts are a back, posterior chain exercise. I would not classify them as leg exrcise as there should be little to no quad activation.

Squatting and deadlifting in one session if done properly will hammer your CNS.

To the OP that's a lot of volume in one workout. Too much IMHO.
Are you training for a specific goal?

Deadlifts are a back, posterior chain exercise. I would not classify them as leg exrcise as there should be little to no quad activation.

Do glutes and hamstrings not count as leg?

Squatting and deadlifting in one session if done properly will hammer your CNS.

To the OP that's a lot of volume in one workout. Too much IMHO.
Are you training for a specific goal?

Is that good or negative thing?

You've got to find what works for you but IMO you're doing too many reps esp. for the deadlift. You might get more out of less reps at a much higher weight. For example after my warm up sets my work set of deadlifts is 1x 5-7ish at close to my 1RM. That has me knackered so I wouldn't even attempt another set. IMO that is better for stimulating growth than more reps at a lighter weight & probably better for recovery too.

Also don't personally see the point of kettle bell swings/squats if you're doing barbell squats. Just do heavier weight on the barbell squats if you've got more to give. You will see better returns doing heavier weights than multiple exercises doing basically the same thing but with lighter weights IMO.

I basically just keep it simple now and do no more than 3-4 exercises per session. Always squats & bench, maybe deadlift and pullup or dumbbell row.

Lastly (and this is personal opinion again!) never saw the point in situps, esp. weighted. If I do any extra core work it's always right at the end and always takes the form of stabilisation e.g. plank, hanging L-sit etc. But I find I get a great core workout just by concentrating on form for all my other exercises e.g. squat, bench press & especially pull-ups.

I'm not an expert & agree that juggling cycling & weights is tricky although I think you definitely need to prioritise one over the other (cycling for me at the moment).

good IF you allow sufficient recovery afterwards
You've got to find what works for you but IMO you're doing too many reps esp. for the deadlift. You might get more out of less reps at a much higher weight. For example after my warm up sets my work set of deadlifts is 1x 5-7ish at close to my 1RM. That has me knackered so I wouldn't even attempt another set. IMO that is better for stimulating growth than more reps at a lighter weight & probably better for recovery too.

Also don't personally see the point of kettle bell swings/squats if you're doing barbell squats. Just do heavier weight on the barbell squats if you've got more to give. You will see better returns doing heavier weights than multiple exercises doing basically the same thing but with lighter weights IMO.

Lastly (and this is personal opinion again!) never saw the point in situps, esp. weighted. If I do any extra core work it's always right at the end and always takes the form of stabilisation e.g. plank, hanging L-sit etc. But I find I get a great core workout just by concentrating on form for all my other exercises e.g. squat, bench press & especially pull-ups

Yeah a break between sets is essential IMO. Also a good reason for doing less exercises otherwise you'll be in the gym all day! IMO I would take the weight increases gradually & prioritise form, injury is a real risk otherwise as you approach your 1RM.

I would take the weight increases gradually & prioritise form, injury is a real risk otherwise as you approach your 1RM.

I found any sort of heavy-ish legwork with weights pretty much screwed my legs for cycling for a couple of days without any obvious benefit for my riding. I guess ultimately it depends on whether you're simply weight training and you also cycle or you're weight training in an attempt to improve your cycling.

If it's the latter, then maybe you need to think hard about whether you're being hindered by leg strength / power. I started doing more core stuff, renegade dumbbell rows, pull-ups, dorsal raises that sort of thing and running more, which worked better for me.

All not very expert or scientific, but then I'm not an elite athlete, just a keen cyclist who does the odd endurance event and rides a lot. Also bear in mind that different stuff works for different people, none of us are the same.

I found any sort of legwork with weights pretty much screwed my legs for cycling for a couple of days without any obvious benefit for my riding.

I found the same thing - i'm getting a much better return from big gear torque intervals on the bike.

I found any sort of legwork with weights pretty much screwed my legs for cycling for a couple of days without any obvious benefit for my riding.

Having said that I've found increased leg strength slightly beneficial... I'm an average cyclist but can sprint pretty fast for very short periods which means I win all the mates' sprints to the pub/cafe/etc, which is what it's all about really 🙂

Having said that I've found increased leg strength slightly beneficial... I'm an average cyclist but can sprint pretty fast for very short periods which means I win all the mates' sprints to the pub/cafe/etc, which is what it's all about really

Obviously. But I'm pretty much a fast twitch animal at base anyway, so for me, it doesn't seem to add whole lot. But I ride pretty much every day and I resent having dead-feeling legs the day after a weights session. I don't think there's a 'correct balance', just what works best for you.

Do glutes and hamstrings not count as leg?

Is that good or negative thing?

Feel free to comment here, but I have been told by a fair few PT instructors, that cyclists have stong quads and weak glutes / hams. They also said that if you add in sitting at a desk all day your this just compounds the weak glutes and gives you tight hip flexors. Doing Deadlifts & squats will help strengthen those weak glutes and hamstrings to counter balance this. The result is that lower back issues will hopefully be avoided.

well, I would agree that squats & deadlifts are helpful (and almost everyone should do them anyway) but IMO the best cure would just be not sitting behind a desk all day!!

Feel free to comment here, but I have been told by a fair few PT instructors, that cyclists have stong quads and weak glutes / hams. They also said that if you add in sitting at a desk all day your this just compounds the weak glutes and gives you tight hip flexors. Doing Deadlifts & squats will help strengthen those weak glutes and hamstrings to counter balance this. The result is that lower back issues will hopefully be avoided.

Completely agree!

I would just do them on different days as you probably won't get the full benefit from either if they are on the same day.

Keeping in mind I have no idea about your training experience/level or goals, if you are training twice a week I would split it down as follows:

[u]Day 1[/u]
Squat
OHP
Lat Pull/Pull Ups
Banded Lunges

[u]Day 2[/u]
Deadlift
Bench Press
Rows
Farmers walk

With regards to reps and sets.
Make sure you do a couple of warm up sets per exercise THEN 4 or 5 sets of 5-8 reps.

It'll build strength at a decent rate provided your diet is on point and you're getting at least 8 hours of sleep per night.

My take from the OP's posts is that he's just weight training to improve core/back strength/posture with regards to cycling & to counteract an otherwise sedentary lifestyle, not because he wants to get massively strong or hench! Could be wrong though.

IMO the best cure would just be not sitting behind a desk all day!!

With regards to reps and sets.
Make sure you do a couple of warm up sets per exercise THEN 4 or 5 sets of 5-8 reps.

My take from the OP's posts is that he's just weight training to improve core/back strength/posture with regards to cycling & to counteract an otherwise sedentary lifestyle, not because he wants to get massively strong or hench! Could be wrong though.

No interest in getting super strong or hench, but keeping tone and definition are also on the list.

If this translates to on the bike performance then great. By on the bike performance that can mean, not fatiguing so quickly on longer rides or as mentioned, not getting a sore lower back. Not trying to build sprinting power or anything like that.

keeping tone and definition are also on the list.

No interest in getting super strong or hench, but keeping tone and definition are also on the list.

As Zilog states "toning" (I f***** hate that term) means improving your muscle to fat ratio.

If you strength train, eat well and recover properly you'll be happy with the results.

Can you elaborate as to what weight you would life on the warm ups. Say for arguments sake I would be lifting 80kg on the deadlift for 5-8 reps, what would a warm up set be?

My warm up tends to be 1 set at 25% of working weight then 1 set at 75% of working weight then into the proper sets and weight

Can you elaborate as to what weight you would life on the warm ups. Say for arguments sake I would be lifting 80kg on the deadlift for 5-8 reps, what would a warm up set be?

On a lift as taxing as the deadlift you want to prime your CNS for the work thats coming it's way and make sure you're good and warmed up.

Not good news

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/oct/21/is-sitting-bad-for-you

What does a tired CNS feel like? I understand and occasionally have DOMS so I understand that, but training your CNS? How do I know what a trained CNS feels like?

You don't train up CNS per se, it's about developing mind/muscle connection.

CNS fatigue is most common when performing a lot of high weight, low rep movements within a session and/or over a prolonged period of time. This is where you use periodisation to ramp up and down weight and intensity across session to avoid burnout. I guess the best way to describe the feeling is if you feel like you have the energy but don't have the motivation to perform more movements. More mental fatigue than physical where the muscle may feel tired and full of lactic acid or you overall feel physically tired.

You would most likely experience if you attempted multiple 1RM lifts within the same session.

What is lactic acid?

http://dailyburn.com/life/fitness/truth-about-lactic-acid-lactate/

http://running.competitor.com/2014/01/training/six-lies-you-were-taught-about-lactic-acid_29432

If i thought I'd be pulling 80kg.
I'd do 5 x 20, 5 x 40 and 5 x 60 before doing my 5x5 at 80kg.

Hmm. I'd say otherwise. For 5x5 I'd be doing two lighter warm up sets then 5x5 at full working weight, maybe adding small increments of 2.5kg if I felt like it

For example, tonight I was on 4 x 6 snatch grip deadlifts. Two warm up sets of 8 at light then slightly heavier weights then into the full working sets of 4 x 6 @ 100kg and as a finisher I had 15 regular deadlifts at 100kg.

The only time I'd follow your suggestion is if I'm going for a heavy 2 reps where my sequence is 8,5,3,2,2,2 with the final 2 being my all out max and I'd have some fairly big jumps in weight on each set

It would be something like

8 @ 60kg
5 @ 80kg
3 @ 100kg
2 @ 120kg
2 @ 140kg
2 @ 160kg

Thought this article was interesting, quite similar to my experience to be honest but more objective and evidence based. Thought it was interesting that he also found that the improvement in core strength paid off in eliminating lower back pain in the Whitton and also the 'real world' stuff that most of us don't have unlimited training time, so time spent in the gym tends to replace time spent on the bike.

I think I get more bang for my buck in performance terms from mixing HIIT with some dumbbell-based holistic core stuff, but I think everyone's different. Anyway, might be worth a look.

[url= http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/fitness/strength-training-for-cyclists-is-it-worth-it-125222 ]http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/fitness/strength-training-for-cyclists-is-it-worth-it-125222[/url]

This time of year I tend to prioritise playing rugby over the bike and then swap over once the season has ended. There's definitely some crossover between the two if you're riding is off road based but there's also some benefit to an easy road spin the day after a game for recovery.

If contact isn't your thing then touch rugby is a really good alternative which I tend to pick up over the summer once the contact season ends or 5-a-side football. Certainly ring these forms of HIT cardio more interesting than a treadmill or hill sprints plus you're also improving the mental aspect by having to try and maintain concentration as you fatigue.

Any tips for fitting strength training in a triathlon training schedule which already has 3 runs 3 bike sessions 2 swims and a Pilates class in it. In between Sept and Nov I did 5x5 and was going well but pulled my back not concentrating on a dead lift. I'm now up to full triathlon training, I can't afford a day off due to sore legs. Plus the runs are high quality sessions I've stripped out the junk miles so they bloody hard work.

If you dont have the time then one of the things that might have to go is the strength and conditioning / resistance stuff
http://www.training4cyclists.com/don%E2%80%99t-fall-into-strength-training-trap/

But there can be gains to be had with off the bike training
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/training/article/izn20161128-Off-the-bike-Strength-training-for-winter-cycling-0
https://breakingmuscle.com/learn/preseason-strength-training-for-cyclists-gaining-power-off-the-bike

British Cycling and Team Sky physio Phil Burt

https://roadcyclinguk.com/racing/interview-british-cycling-team-sky-physio-phil-burt.html

[i]Wiggins, however, is a rider well-versed to Burt’s training routines and the requirements, also, of work off the bike.

And the changing attitudes towards training are typified by one of Burt’s anecdotes about one of Britain’s favourite cycling sons.

“He came to me in 2008 when he was with Team Colombia with a CD they had given him,” he explained. “His off the bike work wasn’t great then, and they had come up with 27 exercises for them to be doing.

“He showed it to me and said, if I do all of those I won’t have any time left to ride my bike!

“I think it comes down to what your goals are. If you just want to ride your bike and you have very little time for anything else then just ride your bike.

“Bradley does a lot of resistance training now and the build up to his world time trial win was part of that. All the evidence now is that endurance cyclists can benefit from a training programme – not big heavy weights, but some.”[/i]

I'm currently doing 2 x cross country sking per week and one trainer road session, plus 3 x weights sessions using 5x5 but deadlier ingredients twice and week and squatting once.

basically I can't cycle here until April is so will stick with this combo then drop one weights session for the bike when the weather changes

http://velomotion.today/why-cross-country-skiing-will-make-you-a-better-cyclist/

http://www.cyclingquotes.com/news/boasson_hagen_spent_more_time_in_the_gym_this_offseason/

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/edvald-boasson-hagen-begins-new-chapter-sky-157613

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/13/edvald-boasson-hagen-seals-win-while-bradley-wiggins-may-ride-after-rio

deadlifts not 'deadlier ingredients' !

I'm struggling to find the right balance for a combination of road riding, MTB, triathlon and general aesthetics but my current schedule is 3 weights sessions, ABA split.

Weights all follow Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" program so warmups plus relatively small working sets:

A is squat 3x5, bench 3x5, power cleans 5x3, dips 3x8
B is squat 3x5, overhead press 3x5, deadlift 1x5, chin-ups 3x8

Full program atm with cardio is:
Mon: weights, easy 5k run
T: hilly 10k run, tech swim
W: weights, easy 5k
T: track run session
F: weights, easy 5k
S: long run, long swim
S: long bike

I'm a keeping an eye on the number of "heavy" sessions (basically every weekday!) but at the moment I'm still managing to keep the quality there. But def need to add another easy bike and swim in there somewhere...

Anyway - it all seems to be working so far, only hing is I'm *hungry* a lot of the time, and I need a good 8 hours rest every night to recover properly!

Samb I would struggle with squatting 3 times a week and no rest day, but each to their own!

squatting 3 times a week

Yeah I get that 3x a week for squats is pretty heavy, but that's what the "Starting Strength" programme prescribes, so that's what I'm going to start with. I'll make changes from there if anything starts to suffer unduly.

Key thing I'm sticking to is making sure the "easy" sessions are definitely easy. I had a bit of a wobble last weekend: weights on Friday, pacey 10k run on Saturday then an 85k road ride on Sunday... On the Sunday ride, I bonked massively around 65k or so and had to yum down a load of fruit & nut to get home!

Working pretty well this week though, 3x weights, 7 runs, 2 swims. No bike sessions - legs were feeling tired this morning, so I took the morning off and did a gentle 4k run and 1k swim in the evening. Still a little sore but should be fine for squats before work tomorrow morning 😈

I think I meant more that you are not recovering from squatting 3x per week. the day after you are running or cycling or some kind of CV. if it was me that would catch up with me in the end, either through tiredness, illness or injury, but if it works for you all good!

Sigh... this all makes me wistfully nostalgic for the days when the Southern Yeti would strut the forum flaunting his compulsive exercise disorder and boasting about how he combined brutal weights sessions with multi-marathon endurance runs on the same day. And then there were the food fights... oh yes...

I can't believe no-one's mentioned six-packs yet either.

@SamB - I don't think your weekly schedule is sustainable. At the very least you ought to slot in a single proper recovery day. Are you the Southern Yeti in disguise? Do you have easy weeks?

@BWD I'm actually taking an easy week this week - I'm away for a friend's birthday this weekend so taking it a little bit easier.

But yeah I'm a little worried about the lack of a recovery day, but am going to press on and see how it goes. Definitely making sure I keep an eye on recovery though, I was pretty burnt out Sunday and today but should be back on the gym tomorrow AM.

Definitely no six packs here though! And definitely taking it very easy outside of the weight sessions 8)