I love these threads where kerley posts up with absolute certainty about modern full sus bikes while giving the fact he rides a 1980’s track bike as evidence of how he’s right.

I’m just grateful that there’s so much choice out there from massive to one man band manufacturers that build in all kinds of materials.
Pretty much something out there now for any taste. Sure beats being limited to riding a 1980’s track bike…

Morph Steel 160/142. Years of abuse.

Well it’s got me looking more closely at a Cotic Jeht or Flare Max 🙂

Hopefully I’ll be able to have a fondle of someone’s Rocket Max soon to see how they look up close!

This thread is making me think I need a steel full bouncer now! And I don’t really know why.

The thing with steel is its still looked upon as a cheaper heavier material thats flexy and rust prone so to some people it’s a weird choice for a full suss that’s gonna get wet n muddy most of the year.
When most mountainbikes were steel they seemed a lot more affordable, the introduction of alloy as the new norm is when mountain biking started getting expensive, so when these steel bikes are being made with the same price tag as carbon and alloy it raises questions, I’m suprised there isn’t more titanium full sussers being made as it seems some people will pay whatever it costs and still argue its worth it. Is it the niche factor that’s appealing, are most buyers anoraks or retro enthusiasts, adamant that steel is real, its certainly a dividing subject, I also get the the impression that Cotic owners are older dudes or young with a grandad mindset like Jon richardson, how many riders would gladly own an alloy, carbon or steel frame compared to riders who would never go steel for full sus.

I’m on my second step full sus. I’ll be brutally honest, I generally just love the way they look. But they also ride really well, current frame has some nice flex in the rear end which I think helps on of cancer sections.

What I also like is that they come from small companies with great customer service.

Take this weekend, I’m at the Ard Rock. I had a 10 minute chat with the company owner/frame designer of my current frame. Also chatted to the merchandise man, one of the fabricators and bumped into the chap the runs the owners Facebook group. Was just really nice!

@brant

Coil springs are torsion bars! /winkyface

Nope, they’re not.

A torsion bar is twisting, the bar that makes up a coil spring is simply bending.

Hope those sections aren’t malignant.

Coil springs are torsion bars! /winkyface

you know what i mean! though this is interesting information.

Wot like my old Morris Minor? And lever-arm dampers? Double blimey!

probably easier to change that the ones in the minor.

A coil spring doesn’t bend. It twists.
Leaf springs bend.

A torsion bar is twisting, the bar that makes up a coil spring is simply bending.

So far as I can tell from having looked it up, a torsion bar is stressed only in torsion, whereas a coil spring is stressed in both torsion and shearing. But not bending apparently. I find it quite hard to visualise but I can kind of see how that might be.

@tomhoward

we’ll see

just spotted this. i may have misinterpreted your post. are you waiting on a straight-tubed, bonded carbon frame?

if so, will you be fitting those fancy wheels (assuming i remember correctly and it is you who had wheels built with the “string” spokes).

Susanne Tully rides a steel full sus.

Fact.

Coil springs still mainly twist the steel bar in torsion. Most broken coil springs you see have a 45 degree / spiral fracture (which is the alignment of principal stress in torsion).

Edit.wow,loads of replies whilst typing.

A coil spring doesn’t bend. It twists.

but does that make it a torsion bar?

A coil spring doesn’t bend. It twists.
Leaf springs bend.

Well if we are getting pedantic (and you started that I think @brant) we appear to be all talking about what happens to the wire (or other stuff) of which the coil spring is made. The thing as a whole compresses and twists.

@johnw1984 UK made jeht frames back in stock apparently 😜

@keefezza

Stop it you! haha

I’ll have a fondle of yours before I do anything 🙂

Surely a torsion bar is one where both ends are locked to things and you twist it to create the spring.

A coil spring is just a rod. You get the same modulus if you clamp one end of it to the desk and put weights on the other end (a cantilever). As you do coiling it up and putting the weights on the end?

Or is this one of those things that A-level sciences lied about like the nice neat electron shells?

As far as the steel is concerned, a coil spring is still a bar in torsion.

As far as the steel is concerned, a coil spring is still a bar in torsion.

But how can it be in torsion if the ends are free* to rotate arround their own axis? That’s the bit I don’t get?

I.e. this is a cantilever.

If I fold the beam almost in half back on itself. Then each half of the beam has twice the modulus of the original beam, but in series that adds upto the same as the original modulus.

Repeat the folding several times and you’ve got a coil?

*Ish, they’re flattened off and/or retained by a spring seat but they’re not clamped.

It is wound into a spiral so no longer free to twist about its own axis.

So some good answers, especially the looks one for me, but another query, why has nobody done a steel full susser in 953 rather than 853 or 4130, i thought that the entry of 953 added benefits for bike manufacture, but the loss in feel meant it was a bit of a miss for MTB’s, but with full sussers would the added benefits make it better than 853, with minimal issues in the feel side due to front and rear suspension?

I’ve a steel full sus as I wanted something unusual due to my height and fondness for singlespeeds. And there aren’t many custom full sus options out there, let alone SS. Plus I got to support a local builder, which is nice.

It also rides lovely, which the material will be a factor in.

but with full sussers would the added benefits make it better than 853

Two problems with 953… Reynolds made available tubes aimed at light weight builds, not really thinking about full sus use (Cotic work with Reynolds to create a lot of new and custom tubes for its droplink frames, but can still rely on mixing some ‘out of the catalog’ tubes into their tubesets when sticking with 853)… secondly, everything needs to be stainless, BB shell + headtube etc, costing more but offering nothing over their less expensive non-stainless counterparts that can be used with an 853 build.

It is wound into a spiral so no longer free to twist about its own axis.

But then there would be no way of twisting it? The force pushes on the end of the coil almost perpendicularly like a cantilevered beam?

I read a good article not long ago that explained why a coil spring is simply a coiled torsion bar but can’t remember where I found it. It helped me to visualise that the compresion happens as the coiled bar twists along it’s length. Hence the reason why softer coils are longer for a given thickness than firmer coils. Something I hadn’t previously given any thought to.

So why don’t they make Olympic, or even national lever bikes out of steel for competitions?

One of steel’s strengths as a frame material is an excellent and a complimentary combination of strength/weight/durability.

I don’t think competition bikes need to be that durable. Finish the race durable – but not take the everyday knocks and bumps as most of of our frames need to really be to meet our need as hobbyists. I don’t know if they need to meet similar safety standards either.

Utter bobbins the far eastern workers are equally if not more skilled than UK or european workers even if they are just making bicycles.

Yes there are good welders but those making bikes are few and far between they realised they can make more money welding in industrial scenarios to make far more money.

Show me an aluminium bicycle manufacturer apart from orange and their welding is not pretty to start with, certainly seen many far eastern bikes finished better.

Uk made carbon we have hope and thats it and again one trick pony bikes.

So saying cheap labour is unskilled is just another arse talking through mouth on this forum

Go and meet some of these people and insult them to their faces.

@steelbike

Few problems with 👆🏻
1. You can’t read
2. You don’t know what you’re taking about.

@brant Your contributions to this forum are getting irritating. You seem to pop up on a thread, say, ‘You’re wrong. Idiot!’ and then not say anything else.

When someone says, ‘Can you elaborate’ or ‘I think you’re wrong’, one of your fans pops up and says, ‘Don’t you know who HE is?!!’.

You have direct knowledge of the industry while most of the rest of us are speculating based on articles we’ve read and conversations we’ve had.

It would be nice if you could share your experience, especially given the fact you used to sell these frames made by poorly paid unskilled workers, but if you can’t because of NDAs or whatever then just stay out of these threads.

At the moment you’re acting like one of those kids who has left school but still hangs around with kids in the year below because they think you’re super cool.

🤷🏻‍♂️
Chinese carbon frames are constructed by poorly skilled poorly paid poorly skilled workers. Literally the Far Eastern equivalent of those people who used to earn a few quid stuffing envelopes in the U.K.

That’s of course not to say there isn’t a good deal of skill in making the mold and designing the layup.

I’m sorry if any of that wasn’t clear in my previous post.

And if you’re offended by the thing about coil springs being torsion bars, that’s from my first year mechanical engineering degree a long long time ago.

Also, since we’re on the subject, I remember asking you many years ago while you were still involved in the industry if you had any comments to make about this Max Commencal interview.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/From-The-Top-Max-Commencal-interview-2013.html

Today there is no carbon in the Commencal range, in today’s market that seems unusual.

It’s… It’s complicated. We have produced Metas and hardtail frames in carbon in 2007-2008. I went to China to visit these factories. It was a shock for me, because the conditions were a disaster. The workers were working on frames with only paper masks. Kids, I say kids, but they are not kids because they are 18 or 20, are working there weaving the carbon fibre. It’s dangerous. When you speak with their boss, he says, “in my factory you don’t stay too long because your life might only be five years.” So they work six months and they change. All the suppliers are asking for cheaper and cheaper carbon frames. When I came back, believe me, I was not comfortable. I said, I will lose sales, but I do not want to produce carbon. We produce aluminium frames, strong frames, it’s a game and we are not there to… kill… only because we want to save 300g weight. So I said, “No, I don’t want to produce carbon.” I have produced carbon in Toulouse for Nico Vouilloz and Cedric Gracia, 15 or 20 years ago. But it was made in a room with no air in it, with people wearing protective equipment, and it’s very expensive. In China, for me… I do not want to communicate on this, I only talk about this because you asked about it. I don’t say that all factories are the same, maybe some are cleaner, but, for the moment… And we are working on some other technologies, you will see next year or the year after… With carbon you cannot repair it, you cannot recycle it. Too many bad things.

You didn’t reply but many of your fans did, telling me to shut up, don’t I take flights, drive a car, buy stuff from China…etc

Would you like to reply now?

I don’t remember you asking about that.

I can though, tell you about how I lobbied a manufacturer for better protection from carbon dust for their workers before I’d put an order with them.

Went back six months later and the owner showed me the new air filtration system which sucked air outside.

Sadly he also excitedly showed me how the filter then dumped the carbon waste in the local river.

He didn’t get an order.

I now own a company that make clothing in the U.K. from audited factories. Our clothing is quite expensive. This makes many people angry.

If you listen to manufacturers who sell carbon frames (or any material frames made in Taiwan or China) then the conditions are excellent and the workers are well paid. From people who have visited these factories but don’t sell these frames it’s often a very different story.

It does sound like if you buy a frame made in Asia it’s almost impossible to know what worker conditions you’re supporting. Is that the case?

Carbon has particular hazards (do you see what I did there).

Massive ignorance on many consumers parts confusing/combining China and Taiwan, or indeed “all factories”.

As has been seen from my own current industry, clothing factories in the U.K. come in many flavours. As do all industries all over the world.

With the world on fire or drowning, surely the massively wealthy sports fans who are prepared for throw thousands of pounds on a plaything should be making decisions based on sustainability and impact.

Massive ignorance on many consumers parts confusing/combining China and Taiwan, or indeed “all factories”.

I always assumed that if a frame was made in Taiwan then the factory conditions were probably OK. From what you said earlier in the thread I gather that might not always be the case?

It’s really interesting to hear your opinions on this, particularly since you were one of the early pioneers in the current business model of many small UK manufacturers to outsource the actual frame building to Asia.

I’m done for now Bruce. Off skinny dipping in the wood. No equipment needed. Love it.

I love these threads where kerley posts up with absolute certainty about modern full sus bikes while giving the fact he rides a 1980’s track bike as evidence of how he’s right.

It may help if you actually read what I said. I know how triangular structures work and I know the difference between materials when in a rigid triangular structure and it is negligible. The fact I ride a track bike is irrelevant so not sure how you have ascertained that I am somehow using that as evidence.

Watch this, you may learn something

I now own a company that make clothing in the U.K.

I might be being pedantic, and off topic, here, but what does that company actually make? Or should that read ‘sells clothing (and other random stuff) made in the UK’?

@LAT, afraid not, it’s a carbon frame made to look like it’s made of metal. Here’s a teaser.

Won’t be to everyone’s taste, but I think it looks ace 😊, yeah it will have the string wheels.

I might be being pedantic, and off topic, here, but what does that company actually make? Or should that read ‘sells clothing (and other random stuff) made in the UK’?

Yes that’s a better description.