It may help if you actually read what I said. I know how triangular structures work and I know the difference between materials when in a rigid triangular structure and it is negligible.

The front triangle, whilst roughly a triangle, is loaded by bending at the head tube, rather than a point load, so is acting as a truss. I think.

“ I know how triangular structures work and I know the difference between materials when in a rigid triangular structure and it is negligible. ”

If the forces are not wholly in the plane of the triangle, then the fact that it’s a triangle is irrelevant. That’s the kind of overestimation of knowledge I was referring to.

I think he probably has already. Maybe things have changed since he was buying from the Far East?

And Carbon Wasp in Leeds make carbon frames from scratch, in the UK, not just for their own brand either.

Obviosly singletrack Tom has done his usual trick of trying to answer a question by his own parameters to look smug and offered nothing to back up the claim

Carbon wasp don’t make me laugh boy ,I know people who do this for a living and you compared an apple and an orange.

And again show me the Aluminium maker that makes a product here , outside of motorcycle fabricators you will struggle to find any.

Again I think there might have been sarcasm on pants part as I’m sure he knows thats not entirely true otherwise he’s basically saying we bought shit from the far east and you mugs lapped it up , jokes on you. But its not a joke is it because it was cheap and reasonably good for the price.

So what argument next a On One inbred was as good as a Stanton? Yeah £199 ( I paid years ago) vs £500 tough argument , What does it cost to buy a UK made hardtail made of largely cromo £699

I could go to several fabricators in the uk and I have tried this , I ask make this to plan for me like the Taiwan factory and theyr’e all going to try and either change it because of X or Y or have a crack and just be too expensive yet beautiful products arrive beautifully finished in boxes from a foreign country , manufacturing in this country is shite mate don’t fool yourself theres a massive massive canyon between their skilled people and ours, But maybe have a go and get some skin in the game before waffling, come back in two years when you have a sellable product.

The flex of a steel frame is a good thing when cornering and the bike is laid over. As the lean angles increase the suspension is less able to deal with vertical ‘hits’ – the flex of a frame becomes more important in dealing with them.

Years ago I came from a Cannondale Prophet which was by design quite flexible and onto a Jekyll which had been designed to be as stiff as possible. The Prophet tracked long fast sweeping corners brilliantly whereas the Jekyll was skittish and didn’t hold a line as well. IIRC Ducati had similar issues when they went to carbon motoGP frames.

The front triangle, whilst roughly a triangle, is loaded by bending at the head tube, rather than a point load, so is acting as a truss. I think.

It is. In fact a bicycle is the classic definition of a truss structure where additional pairs constitute additional elements of the structure.

what has strength got to do with flexing? 😂

This also deserved more attention than it received.

To answer the OP, I would imagine that setting up a company to make bike frames (FS or rigid) in the UK is easiest with steel. You have one of the world’s top steel bike tube manufacturers in this country. I think 6061 alu is less available, which is probably why Orange started of using 6082, after the initial dabble with steel.
On a separate note, does anyone think the issues surrounding making a good looking steel e-bike will see the likes of Cotic lose the opportunity make sales in a burgeoning market?

And again show me the Aluminium maker that makes a product here , outside of motorcycle fabricators you will struggle to find any.

Orange
Empire

If we’re talking about makers in general then there are plenty more.

@tomhoward

👍

To answer the OP, I would imagine that setting up a company to make bike frames (FS or rigid) in the UK is easiest with steel. You have one of the world’s top steel bike tube manufacturers in this country. I think 6061 alu is less available, which is probably why Orange started of using 6082, after the initial dabble with steel.

I still think it’s amazing what Pace managed to do in the 90’s – having their own tubing drawn, machining the butt profiles on it, welding true world class frames here.

As a dickhead at the time, I didn’t really appreciate how hard it was to make anything in the UK – it was really impressive.

@brant I see instead of going skinny dipping you decided to go on twitter instead.

https://twitter.com/shedfire/status/1424307821181603843

It’s a bit disappointing, tbh.

First, I think you know I wasn’t asking you why you didn’t reply to my question, I was asking if you would like to reply now (it looks like the answer to that is no).

Like it or not, you played a large part in developing the business model you now seem to be set against. Cycling consumers believe that the conditions where their bikes are made are generally good, particularly if they come from small UK based brands. Part of the reason for that is because you told us they were.

If you’ve had a Road to Damascus moment and are now saying that actually the conditions aren’t very good then it would be nice to hear more about it.

Bruce sweetheart.

Check the times if you’re concerned I’m lying.

I twittered then went skinny dipping.

Road to Damascus? If you like. Making trousers in the U.K. is quite a step change from making bikes in China.

Road to Damascus? If you like. Making trousers in the U.K. is quite a step change from making bikes in China.

Yes, and you’re telling people not to buy the same bikes you used to sell.

Not only that, but you’re telling people not to buy bikes that are sold by companies that use the same business model you were a pioneer of.

It sounds like there’s an interesting story there.

Folks can change their mind. Which is one of the reasons for me not still doing the GBDR race – weather in part, for example…..

Either way I think at 113kg steel full susser is next for me. Let’s face it another 2 kg on the frame will make no difference at all compared to my lardy arse. And I like the thought of a Cotic.

Yes, and you’re telling people not to buy the same bikes you used to sell.

Not only that, but you’re telling people not to buy bikes that are sold by companies that use the same business model you were a pioneer of.

It sounds like there’s an interesting story there.

Crikey Bruce, you’re making this hard.

I’m not *telling* anyone to do this. I assumed that posters on here are grown ups. My question still stands as I wrote two days ago

Why would you (anyone) want to buy a carbon framed bike made on the other side of the world by relatively unskilled workers working for a poor wage, paid by companies owned by Vc funds?
I mean, if you have enough disposable income to buy a nice bike for riding around muddy tracks and fields why not support a U.K. or maybe European company who make stuff more locally? It really is up to you.

Well, you’re the one who used to sell these carbon framed bike made on the other side of the world by relatively unskilled workers working for a poor wage, paid by companies owned by Vc funds.

You can probably answer that question better than anyone here since you no doubt did plenty of research into the attitudes of your customers.

However, I would say many of your customers were reassured by you. Like I said, whenever I tried to ask about the ethics of carbon fiber frames I got a torrent of ‘whatabout’ questions thrown at me by On One/Planet X fans amongst others.

If you ever did address the ethics of carbon fiber while you were still selling the frames then I didn’t see it.

[blah blah]90’s[blah blah]. As a dickhead at the time

This implies that you no longer self-identify as a dickhead. If true, can you give us loyal occasional customers an idea of when you transitioned?

Folks can change their mind.

Absolutely they can and that is a very good thing.

Normally people change their mind about something because they find new information or their attitudes change.

If Brant changed his mind because he found out something he didn’t know before or if his attitudes changed then that’s fine. However, from his responses to people on here (who were only saying the same things he and others in the industry have been saying about factory conditions for years) it doesn’t sound like either one of those things happened.

If he found out that factory conditions were worse than he thought or if he one day decided that the factory conditions were unacceptable I would expect a response that was more apologetic. ‘Sorry, we didn’t know at the time.’ or ‘Sorry, we knew conditions weren’t great but we honestly didn’t think we could sell the frames if they were priced any higher.’

I don’t know if he’s taken a page out of the Sick Bicycle Co book of marketing but his responses were confrontational and not apologetic at all which is a confusing response if he truly had his Road to Damascus moment.

It does leave me wondering if he is just a plain old capitalist. When the best business practice was to sell products as cheaply as possible he went and found the cheapest source. Now that the winds are changing and it makes more sense to promote locally manufactured products he is scathing of cheap Asian imports.

I guess we’ll never know.

I’m not invested in the debate, but tweeting about your post was a pretty cheap move :-/

(Shall I have a whine about my bad experience buying a Pompino with **** chainline in 2006? 😉 )

Bugger me some people think they matter.

In some small way of answering the original post, I have owned a few steel hardtails in my time, the latest my second Stanton Slackline. I love their bikes and the way in which they do things, when they released the first prototype pictures of the SwitchFS frame I just knew I had to have one!
Yes it’s a little heavier than an alloy or carbon frame but i love the way it rides and they guys at Stanton were amazing. I also love the fact it was hand made in the UK but then that might not carry any weight with others, which is fine with me 🙂

Keep seeing new models all the time, but honestly, why

Because it’s cheaper and easier for the sorts of “boutique” makers, especially UK based, that want to make interesting, short production run, easily production line altered bikes. You see more of them here, as the sorts of folk who read STW and the kind of folks that might buy one, aren’t so much a venn diagram, but just completely overlapping cirlces.

Nearly all bikes used to be made from steel, and companies had to persuade people to buy bikes that weren’t, until comparatively recently as well.

Nearly all bikes used to be made from steel, true and prices reflected that, not so now, I’d love to see the material costs then work out what premium prices they put on their welding skills and time in the UK.

This one is a fantastic pissing contest.

There are so many sanctimonious cries of ‘No I’m right’ its almost all blending together into white noise!

I also get the the impression that Cotic owners are older dudes or young with a grandad mindset like Jon richardson, how many riders would gladly own an alloy, carbon or steel frame compared to riders who would never go steel for full sus.

Mid 50’s and yes, ride a Flare Max. I’ve been thru alloy and carbon FS’s – broken 2 carbon frames, but my gravel is carbon.

My Flare Max just rides ace, and now in it’s 4th year of abuse – I worked out the other day that it’s like Triggers Broom with the only original parts from purchase as a bike are:
– frame & shock, bigger rotor adaptors, crank, stem, post QR and headset spacers

It just encourages me to ride steep & fast trails, consequentially I wear out and/or break lots of bits.

If I had to replace it, it’ll be another Cotic FS.

I also get the the impression that Cotic owners are older dudes or young with a grandad mindset like Jon richardson, how many riders would gladly own an alloy, carbon or steel frame compared to riders who would never go steel for full sus.

haha, I guess that makes me a young person with a grandad mindset. No clue who Jon richardson is though… maybe im not old enough or have enough of a grandad mindset. I just think they make nice bike that fit me ride well and have a good brand ethos. Pushing trash free trails and the whole woman of steel thing whats not to get on board with.

Would I be right in thinking that Cotic were the first company in the recent era to sell a production steel full-sus?

If so, the reasons they went that route were rather pragmatic and didn’t involve anything like “feel” which is harder to pin down (but could be quantified with elaborate testing kit). The feel thing is something they started talking about later on.

Old alloy trail bikes were often pretty bendy – small tubes, pivots, skinny forks, etc. When the Rocket came out it was stiffer with its steel frame. But alloy bikes have got stiffer and carbon ones even stiffer. And now the feel difference and the benefits of less rigid frames (within reason) are showing up.

https://www.cotic.co.uk/geek/page/SteelFullSuspension

The first half of that (before breeeathe) is what Cotic said when they launched the Rocket. The rest is what they learnt.

I’ve been through similar things with my own products – I can’t remember for sure but I don’t think I realised quite how much structural changes I made for lower weight would result in some aspects of improved tone (although some hunting through old emails and posts could reveal the truth).

I just think they make nice bike that fit me ride well and have a good brand ethos.

That’s as good reasons as any IMO.

I’m currently drawn towards a FlareMAX with bike fit and geometry top of my list of reasons. Yes, frame material is coming into it too in a ‘non-carbon’ approach, but if it was between steel or aluminium? I’m not that bothered. If I do go ahead it’ll be the 7th Cotic I’ve owned – there’s just something about the bikes/company that dings my bell.

https://www.cotic.co.uk/geek/page/SteelFullSuspension

The first half of that (before breeeathe) is what Cotic said when they launched the Rocket. The rest is what they learnt.

That’s a good read and pretty much answers the question posed by the OP.

To be fair there’s always been that strength to weight / stiffness ratio, steel being 3x stiffer, but also around 3 times denser, that’s why you have bigger aluminium tubes and hydroformed frames to increase stiffness to that of steel in the areas that require it and have the weight savings through this, by weight on a bike i’d say alu vs steel is pretty similar in costs, maybe a little more for steel, but you’re getting more of it.

I do like steel bikes, have my explosif for hardtail stuff, but maybe one day i’ll get a nice steel full susser, i just like reading thoughts on this type of issue.

 I worked out the other day that it’s like Triggers Broom with the only original parts from purchase as a bike are:
– frame & shock, bigger rotor adaptors, crank, stem, post QR and headset spacers

I have a Specialized Enduro, and the only things I changed are the handlebar and stem (because they didn’t feel good). But honestly it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t mean that either is better or worse than the other. It’s a toy for having fun on. Don’t worry about it too much.

I also get the the impression that Cotic owners are older dudes or young with a grandad mindset like Jon richardson, how many riders would gladly own an alloy, carbon or steel frame compared to riders who would never go steel for full sus.

Nah, bought my RocketMAX because it looks cool and is fast as ****. Cotic are lovely to deal with and have put a lot back into MTB around Sheffield/Peak.

If I had a bit more money I probably would have bought a Starling, for even more niche “old man” vibe.

Nah, bought my RocketMAX because it looks cool and is fast as ****. Cotic are lovely to deal with and have put a lot back into MTB around Sheffield/Peak.

I’m a bit meh about the brand thing for Cotic

I bought my rocketmax secondhand because it was cheapish and in good condition. I wouldn’t buy a second hand carbon MTB and would worry about an alloy one. The support available to keep it going was also a factor

It’s exceeded expectations so I’m quite happy

Yeah, I know what you mean about the brand. I was never a fan of the old logo, was a bit eyerolly, but the block colours and frame wrap graphics are nice. I mostly meant about the thin, straight tubes. Nom.

I nearly fell off my chair when i read Brant having a pop at cheap foreign made products and labour conditions.

As someone who likes value, I have ridden second hand full suss frames since 2006, mostly aluminium but there was a 26″ Rocket in there too.

Each one rode better than the last (apart from the orange 140mm travel Marin Wolf Ridge which I sold after a few rides) but this is geometry I think rather material.

This year at 50 when I decided to buy a whole brand new bike I would have loved to buy a Cotic or Starling but a Bird was just better value.

Looks wise, steel wins no hands down for me. Especially the Swarf frames, stunning.

My own experience, having owned and ridden alu, carbon and steel FS bikes is that there are probably too many differences to pin them down to specific things. However, I can say for sure that my Murmur (with it’s skinny steel rear end) is incredibly quiet and calm feeling, finds amazing grip in the slop and drops better than my Nomad did, despite having 30mm less rear travel. It’s also much easier to clean, look after and maintain, cost a lot less, is from a nice bloke in Bristol who I actually met and looks the absolute business.

I am not a steel die hard though, I’d happy have another bike made of carbon or alu, but I really like my Starling.

I nearly fell off my chair when i read Brant having a pop at cheap foreign made products and labour conditions.

Haha!

I nearly fell off my chair when i read Brant having a pop at cheap foreign made products and labour conditions.

Does it count as a flounce if you announce it on Twitter and not here?

https://twitter.com/shedfire/status/1425110656341221384

#prayforbrantsbrainandheart

I looked at steel full-sussers (Jeht and Murmur trail specifically) recently snapped an alloy frame. But despite steel being so much stronger and easily repairable the warranty’s sucked in comparison to big brand alloy – as well as the prices for the same spec level. So I’m back on alloy but with the peace of mind of a no-quibble lifetime frame warranty.

with the peace of mind of a no-quibble lifetime frame warranty

Isn’t there some question about what the lifetime of the frame actually means?

I think I would rather take my chances explaining what happened to Joe or Cy than have to navigate the legal departments of Specialized, Trek, Giant, etc