hammyuk +1

Our initial training and tests are woeful.

I passed my test at 17, 8 weeks after my birthday, and the day after I passed I drove Audi 100 estate with 22ft keelboat on trailer over from Cumbria to North East – via Alston. W.T.F. was I thinking (and the chap who insured and loaned me his wifes car?)…. It worries me with three lads who will all be eligible to drive within 6 years….

Our ongoing professional stuff also needs looking at – if you are driving others for a living, you should have a higher standard of driving competence and knowledge. Personally, in light of the Glasgow Bin Lorry incident, I think a 5 or 10 year update, retest and medical would be a start.

I think a 5 or 10 year update, retest and medical would be a start.

My 2p:

– Full retest + medical every 10 years.
– Highway code/virtual test every 5 years (the ones where you have to watch a video and spot hazards etc)
– Obligatory full re-test if two or more offences in a year
– Mandatory minimum life ban if you kill/seriously injure someone due to dangerous/careless driving.

That would just about do it I reckon. The main message people need to understand is that driving is not a frivolous thing, and should be taken seriously.

so who here has not had points/speed awareness course/done for speeding?

24yrs of driving and nothing for me. Mind you, I dont live in Derbyshire or North Wales, which having been through a couple of times appears to be entirely under the gaze of Gatsos.

“Bite your tongue” suggests you have something you want to get off your chest, but don’t for whatever reason.

That’s not how it read to me, i think I’d have difficulty not telling some arsey driver to STFU if they were whining/talking shite, mind you I’d probably have similar difficulty in not asking the instructor to clarify something if I thought they might be incorrect.

I’d hope most instructors were very professional and knew their stuff, aslong as they do then if they adopt a patronising manner you can’t really complain too much, as you’re there for a reason eh?
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<edit> plus what Dazh said about retests, I’d also suggest an immediate retest (temp ban until the test) if you seriously injure someone, just to check you still know what you should be doing, irrespective of any later court action/sentence.

Mine was fine… just sat at the back, listened – maybe learned a couple of bits.

One thing I didn’t get and queried was when they started talking about stopping distances which apparently haven’t change since the Highway Code was done. They made the point that technology in cars had improved reducing the braking distance but the reaction time had gone up because of the extra distractions we have inside our cars. Seemed like BS that bit. I didn’t want to be a smart-arse but had to ask how they were able to quantify that and why the splits on the stopping distance in the code hadn’t changed as a result if this were true. They didn’t have an answer and basically told me to pipe down.

They didn’t have an answer and basically told me to pipe down.

I guess the instructor probably should have gone with “despite top gear shenanigans the official stopping distances haven’t been revised so we’re sticking with those until it’s properly researched, revised and validated.” Then if you continued to disagree use the “pipe down” line 🙂

ended up with some useful non Highway Code type facts.

That’s a reasonable point actually. One of the more interesting bits was a “case study” of sorts about how many people are affected by a bad collision, down to the partners of road workers who have to listen to horror stories and so on.

My Mrs went on one and from the course taught me ‘3rd gear in a 30’ – it works surprisingly well.

One thing I didn’t get and queried

The one I challenged was the assertion that because I answered ‘above average’ in rating my own driving ability, I was “overconfident.” Nothing to do with being overconfident, rather that the ‘average’ road user is a gibbon and I wouldn’t trust them to be in charge of their own socks.

it works surprisingly well.

for?

I answered ‘above average’ in rating my own driving ability

everyone is 🙂

My Mrs went on one and from the course taught me ‘3rd gear in a 30’ – it works surprisingly well.

I’m surprised at that. It’s totally different to what the driving test teaches you, it’s uneconomical driving, and it means you’ve more acceleration / response. I’d hazard it’s harder to hold 30mph in third than fourth.

Besides. If someone’s incapable of holding a speed comfortably without resorting to undergearing, they should probably consider more practice or further lessons. I reckon I could hit 30mph to a reasonable degree of accuracy without looking at a speedometer at all.

everyone is

Oh, sure. That was the point they were making I think, everyone thinks they’re of above average ability. They didn’t state it explicitly but it’s basically the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Where the logic falls down and what they refused to acknowledge is that by definition almost half of the drivers on the road actually are above average.

‘3rd gear in a 30’

Whilst I agree, you can see how confusing it is, as my car’s computer tells me to change to 4th at 25, and 5th at about 35, and 6th at 45. I usually ignore it, but it’s quite annoying having the bloody car tell you how to drive. Of course it would be much more useful if instead of telling you that you’re in the wrong gear, it told you when you were going above the limit, which considering GPS technology shouldn’t be difficult to do.

so who here has not had points/speed awareness course/done for speeding?

Looks like just me and you then. Saints eh?

I reckon I could hit 30mph to a reasonable degree of accuracy without looking at a speedometer at all.

Me too. There is one of those speed displays near home which I regularly drive past. 28-29mph without looking at the speedo. Oh and in fifth not third (what a stupid idea that is).

willyboy – Member
My Mrs went on one and from the course taught me ‘3rd gear in a 30’ – it works surprisingly well

So I shouldn’t be in 5th gear in a 30mph zone? (going at 30mph I should add).

I’d hazard it’s harder to hold 30mph in third than fourth.

Probably depends on the car, but I’ve always done the “3rd in 30” thing. Don’t think I was specifically taught it but it seems very natural in my car (Focus 2.0L)

2nd in a 20 works pretty well too.

so who here has not had points/speed awareness course/done for speeding?

Me.

But I didn’t learn to drive till I was in my 30s and only passed my test in 2007.

so who here has not had points/speed awareness course/done for speeding?

24yrs of driving and nothing for me. Mind you, I dont live in Derbyshire or North Wales, which having been through a couple of times appears to be entirely under the gaze of Gatsos.

I wish. Had a licence for 21 years. Been “done” twice:

Once for doing 85 on a dual carriageway (the copper was kind enough – I’d gone well over 90) when I was late for a hockey match. When asked what my job was, I rather sheepishly replied “solicitor”. I’d been qualified a week..!

Second time was when somewhat distracted about the exact limit (it had been changed from a 40 to 30 a few weeks before and I just forgot when taking Mrs North urgently to hospital). Attended an awareness course for that one.

The course was very useful and made me a better driver. Surprisingly, I already knew a lot of what they asked us, but clearly wasn’t as conscious about that knowledge as I could have been.

@ OP -engage, ask questions and you’ll get something out of it. But be very afraid of your fellow attendees..!

Back when I was learning I was taught to change up from 1st to 2nd at 10mph, 3rd at 20mph and into 4th at 30.

30mph in fourth is comfortable enough for cruising along, dunno as I’d fancy being in 5th at that speed, the engine would be labouring badly I’d have thought.

Once for doing 85 (the copper was kind enough – I’d gone well over 90)

Your speedo was probably over-reading by a percentage, you were probably closer to 85 than you think.

That’s just given me a sudden thought. When the copper pulled you over and went “you were doing well over 90 mate, but I’m only going to book you for doing 85,” I wonder if the truth was that they knew you thought you were going faster than you actually were and the patter is just a trick to make you feel grateful that you’re being ‘let off’ when it’s nothing of the sort. Sneaky buggers.

I answered ‘above average’ in rating my own driving ability

In which case, you’re effectively holding yourself to a higher standard of driving behaviour than everyone else who would just be average.

So if you are involved in a collision/break the law it would be legitimate to apportion more responsibility to you than to the average driver.

compulsory retest

You see, I don;t think this will ever take off. The price of the administrative aggravation of administering, delivering and policing this would far outweigh the benefit. Look at this this way: 2000 deaths a year on the road is a pretty small price to pay for being able to keep a population of 60 odd million people moving around with minimal inconvenience and sizeable autonomy for many of them. (Yes, I’m being glib.)

When the copper pulled you over and went “you were doing well over 90 mate, but I’m only going to book you for doing 85,” I wonder if the truth was that they knew you thought you were going faster than you actually were and the patter is just a trick to make you feel grateful that you’re being ‘let off’ when it’s nothing of the sort. Sneaky buggers.

I can’t remember all the details but the conversation as I sat in the passenger seat of his car was along the lines of “The video screen in this car isn’t working – you’re more than welcome to come to the station to watch it there. I followed you at 85, so am going to issue you a fixed penalty notice for that.”

I know that my speedo had shown over 90, so was happy not to have any further discussion (although you’re right about the mythical over reading error!).

I was also told off for using my phone (within the speed limit – I put my foot down after the call*) – this was about a month before the ban came in, so all in all I think I got off lightly.

*as if that somehow makes driving and using a phone any more legitimate..!

The price of the administrative aggravation of administering, delivering and policing this would far outweigh the benefit.

They’re quite happy to remind me (and admin/police it) that I need to get a new licence every 10years dunno why they can’t get me to do a retest while I’m at it. And I know someone who only had to drive 200yards down a straight road to get their licence many years ago, reckon they could do with a retest. Have heard other people doing very very basic tests. BTW 2000 is still too many, the “seriously injured” figure is a lot more on top aswell.
As an after thought is anyone still using the old paper licence? In which case WTF!

dunno as I’d fancy being in 5th at that speed, the engine would be labouring badly I’d have thought.

Our car seems to be quite low geared (tiny engine) so 30 in 5th on flat or slightly downhill is no problem, engine seems to almost be ticking over rather than labouring, def need to change down for inclines tho.

Yes, my dad is still using his paper licence. He’s lived at the same address for 60+ years so had no reason to change it. Actually, come to think of it, it isn’t even pink – it’s green! (full licences used to be green, the same as provisional ones)

Rachel

Looks like just me and you then. Saints eh?

I’ve also never broken a law in my life. 😀
I did get a parking ticket once though. 🙁

Yes, my dad is still using his paper licence.

ergo WTF! How come I get the joy of doing a full test and having a proper photo id licence and have to renew every 10 years, when (with no disrespect meant to your dad) people who passed when the bar was set much lower also get to keep their moth eaten paper licence for over half a century?

Even with the modern tests I cannot imagine still having the right to go out and drive my car 30 years later never mind 60, just seems daft.

I did get a parking ticket once though

not even had one of those 😉 but as per Graham didn’t pass til I was (nearly) 30 and just 10 years ago last month (hence the licence renewal ranting)

I’d hope most instructors were very professional and knew their stuff

Mine were great.

I’d hazard it’s harder to hold 30mph in third than fourth.

Give it a try. I don’t use third as I’m ok at holding 30 in 4th, but if I knew someone who struggled with it, I’d recommend it.

Back when I was learning I was taught to change up from 1st to 2nd at 10mph, 3rd at 20mph and into 4th at 30.

In my car I change up 3rd to 4th a bit later than that, maybe 35ish (around 3500 rpm).

But don’t your figures support 3rd in 30? Given that in a 30 limit you (should) be doing 20 to 30mph?

Look at this this way: 2000 deaths a year on the road is a pretty small price to pay for being able to keep a population of 60 odd million people moving around with minimal inconvenience and sizeable autonomy for many of them. (Yes, I’m being glib.)

Road deaths are not a good indicator of driving standards or the benefits of improving them though.

Road deaths are low due to advances in vehicle and road safety (air bags, impact bars, ABS, crash barriers etc). There are still plenty of collisions and terrible driving. And of course there is the immeasurable damage caused because people are too scared of the roads to cycle or let their kids walk to school or play in the street.

ergo WTF! How come I get the joy of doing a full test and having a proper photo id licence and have to renew every 10 years, when (with no disrespect meant to your dad) people who passed when the bar was set much lower also get to keep their moth eaten paper licence for over half a century?
Even with the modern tests I cannot imagine still having the right to go out and drive my car 30 years later never mind 60, just seems daft.

Are you suggesting you have to be re-examined every 10 years or just apply for a new one and get it?

Just asking, as I have an old paper green one!! Well actually it’s pink on the endorsement side.

D0NK – he hasn’t been driving for over half a century, he only passed his test a couple of years before me! 1986 I think.

Paper licences are not that old, really.

Rachel

Give it a try.

Bit tricky at the moment as I’m in a pool car and it’s an automatic.

It’s just been waffled about on Jeremy ‘Daily Fail Live’ Vine’s show. The bloke that rang in just to say

“hur, hur, I just went on it to avoid points, didn’t give a monkeys about the content, the government are mugs”

absolutely astounded me with his dimness; the position is a stupid one (although probably held by many), but to actually gloat about it on a public broadcast is incredible; what on earth does that imbecile think he’s going to gain from it? He’s weakening his stupid position. It’s like a double decker of dumbass!

Humanity is screwed.

so who here has not had points/speed awareness course/done for speeding?

Me.

But I didn’t learn to drive till I was in my 30s and only passed my test in 2007.

So not really trying then.

Been driving since I was 16, so 35 years next birthday – at one stage I was doing +40k miles pa (bikes and cars). Plenty of speeding tickets and the like over the years, most on fast A roads. And never argued one, as I know I’m ‘speeding’ – in fact I’m on a course in a couple of weeks 😉

One thing I really notice now is how slow everyone is going compared to years gone by. At one time 80mph on a m-way wasn’t fast, even at +90mph you’d have plenty of folk overtaking. And on NSL’s it seems far too many drivers have settled into 45-50mph, probably just to keep in front of the trucks?

absolutely astounded me with his dimness; the position is a stupid one (although probably held by many), but to actually gloat about it on a public broadcast is incredible

There are plenty of imbeciles around who boast about their speeding habits and wear their fines and points like badges of honour.

Plenty of speeding tickets and the like over the years, most on fast A roads. And never argued one, as I know I’m ‘speeding’

Never understood this point of view.
If you don’t agree with speed limits then why wouldn’t you argue?
And if you do agree with speed limits, why break them?

It’s a very queer logic. 😕

so who here has not had points/speed awareness course/done for speeding?

24yrs of driving and nothing for me. Mind you, I dont live in Derbyshire or North Wales, which having been through a couple of times appears to be entirely under the gaze of Gatsos.

Coo-ee. Waves from the back with 31 years of driving.

And on NSL’s it seems far too many drivers have settled into 45-50mph, probably just to keep in front of the trucks?

I strongly suspect that a lot of it it ignorance; people have no clue what the speed limit is so make something up.

Almost 30 years of driving and not a single ticket or crash or other incident. Once got told off for disobeying lane rules when abroad (turning from a straight on lane or something, police were in the car directly behind, with no obvious markings!). But the cop let me off when he saw the foreign licence. I have nudged into a couple of walls/gateposts when manoeuvering a van with limited visibility, I’m not perfect.

I’m far from the slowest thing on the road, and break limits regularly, but not by a huge margin. I suspect (though I could be wrong) that people who get tickets regularly must often be driving at speeds well in excess of the limit and/or are not paying much attention to their surroundings. Maybe I’ve just been incredibly lucky.

….30 years of driving….. I’m far from the slowest thing on the road, and break limits regularly, but not by a huge margin.

The speed awareness course is basically pitched at you.

That’s the sort of driver that is most surprised by the content of the course, and more than likely learns the most.

Sorry allthegear misread your post, now noticed it says 60yrs at same address not driving 😳
I got a paper provisional when I first had a go at learning (I won a track day so figured I better have a couple of lessons before I went) if I’d carried on learning at the time I guess I’d be in the same boat but TBH I wasn’t really interested in it so stopped after a few lessons.

I just don’t get why they introduced 10year licences but haven’t bothered to get everyone else onto them, seems unfair – especially as renewals cost money!

Back when i learnt to drive, you actually had to have some skill to drive a car. There wasn’t any of this Automatic gear stuff, or brakes that stopped you locking up, or even much in the way of powersteering etc!

I passed my test in an 1963 Landrover. Trust me, the 30mph emergency stop was a proper difficult test back then (especially on M&S crossplies, with leaf springs and a set of extremely unbalanced drum brakes full of water and mud……)