its not going to be possible to explain every detail, you have to figure some of this out for yourself, i would say that if you got the money then sonos will be the least hassle for you.

most likley the ps3 approach and takisawa2 tv both use DLNA/UPNP to access there music library whether its on a dedicated NAS like me or on a desktop pc or a laptop or even a mobile phone.

have a read up on http://www.dlna.org/digital_living/how_it_works/

its fairly easy to setup and works very well for just one system i.e your main tv, ps3, hifi, blu ray player setup.

determine if you have a phone tv media player that can use DLNA and have a play, use squeezebox server if you like

i’ll list some other DLNA software i use

android phone
skifta http://www.skifta.com ( a bit complicated and not that slick at the moment)
upnplay http://bebopfreak.wordpress.com/upnplayer/

nas or pc
subsonic (all web enabled devices, also check out the demo on link below)
http://www.subsonic.org

serviio http://www.serviio.org/

i am linux/freeware biased but no doubt theres some funky apple apps for iphone/ipad etc £££

if you want multiple rooms then sonos or squeeze is the way to go.

If you want a cheap and easy way of playing music from your laptop, Logitech make a little bluetooth box (about £30 I think) that you plugs into the back of your stereo and it can then pick up music played from anything with bluetooth. Never tried one though so i don’t know what the quality is like, I guess it depends a lot on the laptop etc.

As for the Squeezebox Touch I believe that it has a media server built in. That means that you could just back up all your music onto a USB stick/hard drive and leave this plugged into the Squeezebox, you wouldn’t need to turn your laptop on to access your music. You could always then move the hard drive to a NAS box at a later date.

Finally I believe there is a Squeezebox app for Android so you could use your phone as a remote, the Logitech remote doesn’t have a screen so you’d have to have a good view of the box.

dobo, just looked at some of those links. fascinating. i didnt realise all this interoperability (sp) existed! which means im even more determined to make sure i get this right and dont buy something i live to regret later cos it wont do something i need it to.

i just looked at my tv details, a sony bravia, and was pleased to find out its dnla certified, which meant nothing to me before. which now leads me to believe i may be able to access video from a nas onto it. so im starting to think about ‘ripping’ music dvds to a nas for easy watching. (if that is indeed what you do to dvds)

ive just checked google to see if my phones dlna too, (desire HD) and see that it is, so thats good too. (am i already able to watch phone vids on the tv then somehow??)

mjb, my laptops not bluetooth, and i get the impression bluetooth wouldnt be as good as wifi, so im thinking i should go bigger and better than that thanks mate.

threads starting to expand a bit now to include tv/video as well as music 🙂 but its all starting to make a bit more sense now, and im starting to see possibilities of linking everything up.

i assume my old amp and speakers arent going to be a stumbling block? theyre decent quality and im hoping that i can keep them in the loop somehow.

thanks

blimey, ive just had my phones photos up on the tv, and also played my phones music using the ‘connected media’ app on my phone!! it wouldnt play my phones vids tho, said the player (tv) couldnt play them. thats a shame. i need to keep the momentum going and get all this sorted out 🙂

keep at this please, I bet I’m not the only lurker on this thread !

Thanks…

yep, ill certainly keep at it mate 🙂 technologys great innit 🙂 ill just update on my thoughts this morning after a nights sleep on it.

ive been thinking about what im doing now against a squeeze/sonos system. squeezebox will take music from a nas/laptop using its remote, utilising its own server software and sending it to amp.

ive just played an mp3 from my phone (so next step will be rip cd to laptop and try and play it) on my tv using my phone as remote and can play through my speakers.

thoughts are….. has my tv now replaced the squeezebox as the middle man? as digital music is just a series of 1’s and 0’s, is the sound quality exactly the same using tv rather than squeeze? or do they travel through different cables to different input (av?) on amp and lose quality?
as far as interfaces go, the tv showed what track was playing, same as a squeezebox would but bigger. maybe it wont show album art, but not too fussed.
small problem that should iron out ok, my phone found my wifes laptop on its search and could access her files, but didnt find mine. something to do with homegroups which i dont understand. ill look into that.

i still think im going to hit a limitation somewhere thatll mean i still end up buying a squeezebox, but for now its looking promising.

at work for a few days now so not as much time to play, but ill get a chance tonight maybe 🙂

For me, the squeezything is useful as I have a good stereo (and spare decent audio cable for it), and I wanted to play my music over that rather than some other stand-alone device, or relying on the TV being on to play it.

thoughts are….. has my tv now replaced the squeezebox as the middle man? as digital music is just a series of 1’s and 0’s, is the sound quality exactly the same using tv rather than squeeze? or do they travel through different cables to different input (av?) on amp and lose quality?

All cables should be equal, but if you are sending a digital stream over a poorly shielded coaxial cable then it could pick up some interference.

The key determinant of the sound quality at the end of the day will be the speakers and amp that you are playing the music through.

At some point the 1s and 0s will have to be converted into an analogue signal. The quality and price of the digital to analogue converters (DAC) varies enormously.

In terms of overall sound I remember reading a good rule of thumb for what the sound is like is 60% speakers, 30% amplifier and 10% DAC.

dave, i understand that, as im struggling a bit with the phone to see my laptop, and whether mine and my wifes laptops need to be part of a workgroup to be seen. dont really understand them. didnt get chance to experiment last night, but ill be on it again tonight 🙂
but your point is exactly the same reason i think ill end up getting one, unless i find an easy way of doing this the tv way.

ho hum, thats good to hear as i got some decent floor standing mordaunt short spakers and an arcam amp. quick question about the DAC. at what point does it get converted? is the squeezebox a DAC, or does it ‘contain’ a DAC? and same for tv? does this convert digital to analogue itself then?

cheers

Squeezebox has a dac, so both audio and digital out.

If you keep an eye on Logitech’s website you may get a steal on the blemished box section.

EDIT

The key determinant of the sound quality at the end of the day will be the speakers and amp that you are playing the music through.

Hmmm I think the source still has importance – dac and psu. Both likely to be way better in an audio WiFi player than a tv but still capable of improvement. Back in the day do equal spend was suggested for source/amp/speakers (with enough for cabling and support)

Cynic-al is absolutely right, the source is not only important but critical. No matter how good your speakers and amp are they are completely dependant on the information they receive. Try it for yourself. Rip a Track off a CD at 128kbits/s and then the same as WAV or FLAC. If you have even a basic HI-Fi system set up correctly the difference will blow you away. Amp and speakers will still provide lots of power and presentation but data gives the accuracy.

The key to any music system is balance, both in terms or performance and investment.

Sorry, I should have said that the 60:30:10 rule applies to systems that are reasonably well balanced in the first place.

If the system is not well balanced then the old rule of garbage in garbage out will apply.

cynic-al is right about the squeezebox having a dac and from what I have read it performs quite well.

Anybody else use Vortexbox? I’m currently ripping my CD collection in FLAC format so I have a Gold Copy using an old laptop that I’ve installed Vortexbox on. Very easy process, pop in a CD then Vortexbox downloads track information, cover art etc and ejects the CD when finished.

Also acts as a NAS and best of all is free.

Just thought I’d add my experiences, I have a Squeezebox set-up which consists of a Touch, a Classic, a Radio and 3 Booms.

I run the Squeezebox server on a QNAP 4 Bay NAS which is based on a dual core Intel Atom chip.

I have all my music ripped to FLAC and stream it wireless to most of the players.

I can’t really fault the setup, the NAS makes a massive difference as I have run the server on lower spec NAS devices and it did struggle at times.

The QNAP has easy to install software “packages” and the Squeezebox server is available as one, so installation is as simple as a couple of mouse clicks.

I’ve played different songs on each player or even sync’d them all together (a simple menu option) and had them all playing the same songs around the house, and in the garden!

As has been mentioned some people are put off by the Squeezebox set-up because it can seem a bit complicated as it is so customisable.

I love my set-up and wouldn’t change it for anything else.

Spent yesterday evening at a Sonos equipped house.

We came up against its limits (for me at least) in that it wouldn’t play from youtube, or anything else that it didn’t ‘know’, wheras from my simple pc plugged into hifi approach I can listen to anything. Hopefully the TV centered hub thing would retain this flexibility.

I know this is horrible from an audio point of view, but sound quality is largely irrelevant in my case, due to playing guitar in punk bands and tearing round on noisy motorbikes in my youth…

Cynic-al is absolutely right, the source is not only important but critical. No matter how good your speakers and amp are they are completely dependant on the information they receive. Try it for yourself. Rip a Track off a CD at 128kbits/s and then the same as WAV or FLAC. If you have even a basic HI-Fi system set up correctly the difference will blow you away. Amp and speakers will still provide lots of power and presentation but data gives the accuracy.

yup, i can understand that, as the ‘1s and 0s’ will be worse quality on an mp3 than a flac, but how would the tv compare to the squeezebox both playing flac?
i guess the answer is to try it, but works getting in my way at the moment 🙂 thursdays my next day off to try things, so until then ill just keep reading up on it.

flapjack, not toooo bothered about being able to access youtube on whatever system i go for, but am i right in assuming if ive got the ‘phone/tv/laptop’ setup, my laptop could play youtube through the telly?

pembo, never heard of vortexbox, so ill check that out.

cynic-al, you say the SB has a DAC. does the tv too? and is it a case of a DAC is a DAC is a DAC? or are some better than others?

thanks

Any device that plays digital files will have a DAC, more audio centric ones will have better ones and deliver superior playback. A quick correction on your terminology to help understanding. 1’s and 0’s don’t get better or worse, that would be impossible, you simply have more of them when ripping to a supirior the audio format. That’s why (for example) a track ripped to 128kbits/s mp3 may be around 1Mb in size whereas ripped to FLAC would be say 5Mb or so. Lots more 1’s and 0’s describing the music so bigger file.

I think you’ll struggle to find a TV that supports playback of FLAC. Not something I’m aware of but could be wrong.

This TV thing got me thinking. If you’re happy using your TV as your GUI (sorry, Grapical User Interface) then you could consider such devices as Boxee and Apple TV – I’m aware of your dislike for Apple but Apple TV has a pretty easy user interface and includes Internet radio (and YouTube Flap_jack). Not as fast as Sonos and check audio support but will be heaps better than using a TV. Only £99.

I still advocate Sonos and Squeezebox as they are much, much better for music, but this would be viable and brings quite a bit of video fun to the party too. Even if you added Sonos etc… at a later date you’d still have use for both so the investment is sound.

my laptop could play youtube through the telly

That’s what shocked me about the Sonos system I saw was it’s apparent prevention of what seemed like ordinary connectivity. If you’ve not got a fancy box in the way I guess you can do anything (guessing though – I don’t have a modern telly yet).

Good luck.

just thought id quickly rip a cd to flac and try and find it on tv, but….. ive just found out that windows media player doesnt do this. i googled it and seen a few programs mentioned, but all seem to say i need to instal plug-ins :-/

whats the general concensus of opinion on here for ripping to flac? what do you use?

thanks

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

This is what I have seen recommended on a few hi-fi forums that I visit.

thanks mate, just downloaded it now and am having a go at converting a cd to flac. bit baffled by it but have just sort of gone along with their own settings. couldnt see where to convert to flac but a quick google showed i have to convert to wav, then on to flac. hopefully ill get it figured out and the rest will be easier.

ta

Not Sonos or NAS based but for boosting an iPod/iPad/Android device playing mp3’s, Spotify, internet radio (Radio Paradise) in a kitchen or other ‘non-Hifi’ room I can really recommend the Creative bluetooth speakers e.g. D100. It’s a doddle to connect, decent sound, runs on 4 x AA or mains. It’s been brill over xmas playing tunes whilst following recipes on the iPad.

itunes rips lossless…AACC or something?

EDIT and what lossless format you use and how you rip it are irrelevant.

I don’t see how any 10:30:60 system can be balanced.

sadexpunk – Member

cynic-al, you say the SB has a DAC. does the tv too? and is it a case of a DAC is a DAC is a DAC? or are some better than others?

I dunno about any TV having a DAC – I ghuess it must do as it produces sound from digital signal. Bound to sound crap tho.

Some DACs are better than others – a whole industry is based on it! I expect noise can be introduced through the digital signal also.

Why not go the whole hog and and build your own HTPC. Get a small form factor PC running something like XBMC or windows media centre and attach it to the back of your TV with a big NAS box to store all your music, films etc. Connect the audio to your amp (you could add a stand alone DAC for better quality) and the video to the TV and run your TV aerial/satellite feed through the PC. Then you have one interface from which you can listen to your music, play your films, look at photos, stream music/films from the internet, browse the internet, watch/record/timeslip TV. Control via remote or through your phone/laptop. Simple…

Why not go the whole hog and and build your own HTPC.

??

Get a small form factor PC running something like XBMC

??

Simple..

😀

dont understand that mate, so not too sure its the way to go for me. does it mean buying another pc? in which case the squeezebox is probably a better and more simpler option for me. i hear what youre saying about video too, but are you saying that it could all be controlled from phone?

ask1974 and cynic-al, i see your points about apple tv and itunes, but its become a bit of a mental thing with me now, i just dont want to use anything apple 🙂 i just gave my ipod classic away to someone for this reason and i spose itd be like admitting i should really not have done that 😀

thanks

I’m no apple proponent. Squeezebox will make you happy, it has done for me…sounds great, pretty easy to set up, controllable from your phone, and reasonably priced.

right, latest problem for me is…….ive ripped a cd to flac on my laptop, and im trying to ‘find’ the laptop through my phone. im using ‘connected media’ app. i can see my wifes laptop, and her files on my phone, but not mine. we’re both connected to the same ‘homegroup’, but i dont really understand homegroups.

any ideas? (yes i know….just buy a squeezebox!) 😀

right click on my computer and properties and it should show workgroup which i assume is your homegroup.

the default i believe is WORKGROUP, some services require this to be the same on all machines on that local area network.

if you have a work laptop this will likey be different and would not recommend trying to change this, and you will probably find it wont work anyway.

i’m not familair with that app so cant help

dont forget to install subsonic on laptop/pc and your phone to see what can be done 🙂 it will transcode to all formats and bitrates, only downside is, its a web or app program only at the moment

I gave up reading all the long replies but thought I’d add my 2p.

I have a decent hifi and wanted something that would plug into it and play my library of tunes as my CDs are all in storage elsewhere. Since my hifi has a great DAC in it, it made sense to have something just plugged into it, rather than a standalone device, or something that relies on a different machines DAC.

So I went with the Squeezebox Duet, which has a wifi remote (ie it doesn’t have to be line of sight), and a receiver that plugs into the back of the hifi, through digital out or analogue through using its own built-in Wolfson DAC. I also have a spare netbook that I installed SB server on.
So if I just want to listen to BBC 6Music, I turn on the hifi and stream that through the SB. For digital music, the SB pulls it from the netbook and pumps it through the hifi.

It works well on the whole, and it’s a heck of a lot less buggy than it used to be. There are fairly regular firmware updates that get pushed out, and they have helped with the stability, which was previously an issue. And there are a number of apps that you can add to the system, to support Spotify and so on. Internet radio functionality is also great, and if you want later to add more receivers (standalone or for other hifi units) you can, and control them all from the one remote.

Personally, I’d recommend that route, particularly since the Duet is available for cheap as it’s discontinued; but I haven’t explored the other options available.

OT – Sadexpunk – Are you still living over Lincoln way?
If you are, bad news I’ll be over there in a couple of months…

dobo, just installed subsonic on laptop and phone. spent ages configuring laptop to run server. i keep getting firewall messages every few seconds even tho i ‘remember my answer’, ive followed instructions to set up the phone to talk to it, but it keeps failing to connect.
im not even sure what im sposed to get out of it even if i did connect it 🙂

its all got me pretty sure its just not worth the hassle. a squeezebox would just be so much easier. i just cant seem to access my laptop music on my phone firstly, to even try and send to a tv :-/ im ready to give up 🙁

i just found out the basic htc desire which my wife has doesnt support this anyway, so itd only be my phone able to be used as a remote.

as has been recommended already, ill just buy a squeezebox i think. im not technically minded enough to solve the problems im coming up against.

thanks everyone for your help. its much appreciated.

john – yes, still living here, altho shamefully i havent been riding for months now. sort of lost my mtb mojo and have been more into weights than cardio recently. the other lads i used to ride with just go road riding now which doesnt interest me, so im out of practice and fitness 🙂 always pleased to meet up for a beer tho 😀

always pleased to meet up for a beer tho

Click on my user name and drop me an email and I’ll give you a shout.

duets come up SH on fleabay but seem a ‘mare to set up without the controller (which is supposed to have a dire battery life) – I have one I got and am not sure what to do with it!

dont understand that mate,

Basically rather than buy a sonos or squeezebox make your own. They are both just basic PCs with good quality DACs in them. Why not buy a small PC (for example) and use the TV as the screen. You’ll just need some software like Windows Media Centre or XBMC.

Have you by any chance got windows media centre on your laptop already? If so you could plug the laptop into the stereo and try it out before spending any money on a dedicated machine. Later on if you are feeling adventurous you can start to include things like playing DVDs streaming videos/music, browsing the internet and recording TV.

… but are you saying that it could all be controlled from phone?

yep, there are quite a few media centre remote apps. Have a look at Remote Media Center and Remote Potato on the Android market as an example.

as far as that small pc, wouldnt that just cost the same (maybe more) than a squeezebox? or are you suggesting it for the versatility of vids and photos as well?

just had a look at windows media centre and pointed it towards my music folders. how do i connect it to amp? what leads to which connections? and are you saying those phone apps will ‘find’ my laptop running media centre and play my music through the amp without me touching laptop? i ask as my ‘connected media’ app cant find my laptop.

cheers

Interesting stuff. I’m going through similar thought processes. My Blu ray player is a DLNA client and I’ve had it hooked up to both a PC and Mac using Windows Media player andiTunes/Twonky respectively. The biggest issue is for me the usability of the client. If picking music to play from a pretty big library is too much faff I won’t bother. That’s why the Apple TV and iPhone as a remote looks good.

mjb, just been following your link on that pc and reading up on it. i hadnt considered a ‘media centre’ pc as such, and im interested in it now. but….. it looks like it needs me to get separate drive/ memory etc and instal everything myself. am i right?
might be too fiddly for me to do, id prefer something that works out the box. can you advise me on this?

am i right in thinking this pc would be a box instead of a squeezebox, that would play flac to the same quality (good DAC?) yet also play vids, youtube, internet radio…..in fact everything im likely to need?

thanks

What’re the advantages of having a separate media centre PC? I don’t get the idea of having a box tucked away somewhere as a media server because I don’t understand how you then rip CD’s onto it quickly and easily.

I just leave my Mac on and can either access my entire library via Home Sharing on my iPhone (and hence each and every hi-fi or docking station) or via my DLNA client (the Blu Ray player) using Twonky Server which is plugged into my main stereo and TV.