SNP. You LOST, get over it

Of course she also said that a NO would mean no change which we can all see was yet another blatant untruth

“No” was the answer. What was the question?

piemonster – Member
at Minster of the pies

Given your previous voting record that would be Yes Pieminster?

Pie minister is a UK post. There are already two candidates. Nominations are now open for the Scottish post Thirst minister. Charlie Kennedy is barred.

gordimhor – Member
Charlie Kennedy is barred.

In which sense? 😉

I thought you’d dodge the question, and I was right.

Sorry what was “your” question? Couldn’t answer as I couldn’t understand it. The use of NO in the section highlighted is self explanatory.

teamhurtmore – Member
Scotroutes, you don’t need reminding I am sure that Nicola Sturgeon used the same words as well including the once in a lifetime bit..

Ah, that is the beauty of democracy. The party leaders of the SNP are not our bosses.

The movement is bigger than the SNP and if we want another referendum, we will keep pushing for it.

Maybe people whose political model is topdown politics find it hard to understand what is happening in Scotland.

The movement is bigger than the SNP and if we want another referendum, we will keep pushing for it.

epicyclo – Member 
Ah, that is the beauty of democracy. The party leaders of the SNP are not our bosses.

Indeed they are not. So equally no one can dismiss the lifetime/generation issue as merely the words of one man.

The movement is bigger than the SNP and if we want another referendum, we will keep pushing for it.

Indeed again, while hopefully respecting the democratic process that showed that a majority of Scots preferred to remain within the union. Please don’t dismiss that desire as easily as your comments suggest. This is democracy remember?

Maybe people whose political model is topdown politics find it hard to understand what is happening in Scotland.

Easy to understand as the results suggest. Highly concentrated areas where independence is sought (Glasgow, Dundee etc – wonder why??) but even there not by overwhelming majority. In many other regions, the bottom up perspective shows that more people preferred the union than the overall results suggest. What’s hard to understand. Despite strong tailwinds, the motion failed – largely because it’s proponents treated people with complete disrespect by failing to prepare even the basic foundations. For that they will be/should be derided by BOTH sides.

teamhurtmore – Member
…In many other regions, the bottom up perspective shows that more people preferred the union than the overall results suggest…

I think what most people would prefer is a fully devolved Scottish govt, and the bulk of the independence seekers would accept that.

A federated UK with a properly democratic political system certainly appeals to me, but I think that we are less to get that than independence because the privileged parasites in the HoL will fight it to their last breath.

I keep saying this, but the independence movement is not being driven by the political parties. They are responding to it, not leading it.

I keep saying this, but the independence movement is not being driven by the political parties. They are responding to it, not leading it.

Indeed, hence the fact that “so many” SNP supporters voted NO!! 😉

So equally no one can dismiss the lifetime/generation issue as merely the words of one man.

Of course we can as the man [ AS] even said that it was his personal opinion [ we seem to not be discussing the lady anymore for some reason 😥 ]. I am not sure how he could have made it clearer for you tbh.

Highly concentrated areas where independence is sought (Glasgow, Dundee etc – wonder why??) but even there not by overwhelming majority

Dundee had a higher % than voted no overall and Glasgow was 1 % under [57.35 and 53.49]. QED you are saying the no vote was not overwhelming an excellent point that explains why there is still debate.

a majority of Scots

It was a majority of those eligible to vote in Scotland it was not a vote of Scots.

Indeed, hence the fact that “so many” SNP supporters voted NO!!

So 14 % is many then 😕

Apart from the inaccuracy description quite funny 😀

teamhurtmore – Member
Indeed, hence the fact that “so many” SNP supporters voted NO!!

The big lie only works if people don’t start laughing at you the moment you utter it.

Defeated? You’re only defeated when you give up.

You may have noticed we haven’t given up.

And will not.

Ever.

Stirring stuff! Did you get it from Braveheart? Or Highlander?

The only whining I’m hearing is from the likes of you

No whining here. I’m loving the opportunity to debate withtaunt yS people!

The time will come again for the Scottish people to vote for independence but it will get even harder as the central govt will start to move people there a bit like the case of N.Ireland long time ago …

To prevent similar faith as N.I. perhaps there should be a time limit for new migrants to Scotland to vote. i.e. new migrants from other places to Scotland should not have a vote for 5-10 years. The reason is simple you have tiny population.

Demoncracy only works well with strong local population.

Our experience with a local population of 3 million double to near 5.5 million in 2 generations means sooner or later we would be annexed (N.Borneo) …

Oh ya … keep saying no and never give up.

🙄

epicyclo – Member
The big lie only works if people don’t start laughing at you the moment you utter it.

They would have to stop laughing at the fact that the SNP (clue is in the name) can’t even bring it’s own members along on their main raison d’être. The biggest joke of the whole thing, apart from DOs miserable attempts to hoodwink folk about the nature of the currency. And the main reason why more people voted NO was…..?

You can spin the basic facts as much as you like, but they stare right back at you. No wonder the taste is so bitter.

bearGrease – Member
“Defeated? You’re only defeated when you give up.
You may have noticed we haven’t given up.
And will not.
Ever.”

Stirring stuff! Did you get it from Braveheart? Or Highlander?

Nah, Mel Gibson would never have thought of that. William Wallace on the other hand would have…

As an independence supporter I’m happy for the Longshanks arselickers* to keep on taunting. Every day we get get more support, and I’m sure the contempt and taunts helps drive that.

* seeing as we’re making Braveheart references I thought I could substitute an appropriate term for Unionists 🙂

The SNP aren’t a single issue party, why are some people surprised that people can support some policies but not all? Seems silly. There’s never been any doubt that a lot of SNP supporters wouldn’t vote for independence- no more than it’s surprising that supporters of unionist parties would vote yes.

There seems to be a lot of interchangable use of “voters” “supporters” and “members” here too.

Voting SNP does note make you a member. You are twisting things now too far in your shite attempt of a troll.

can’t even bring it’s own members along on their main raison d’être

they brought 86% of their voters along and we have no figure for their members – have you a stat ?- and yet you tell us about AS and his lies and spin. Oh deary me.

You can spin the basic facts as much as you like, but they stare right back at you

Indeed they do , indeed they do

FWIW IMHO the main reason they voted no was Project fear managed to sow enough uncertainty about the future to make the natural conservatism/reluctance of change make many people vote no. In particular the elderly/those with pensions
I dont personally think it was massive wave of positivity towards the union and more a fear of change /uncertainty.
AS did not help with his claims, which were unlikely to come true, but it was a weak yes vote, even THM called it not overwhelming, so hardly worthy of the triumphalism on show on this thread. TBH I am surprised so many non Scots GAS.

The journey is still a progress to devolution, thanks to the winners folding before the vote { i agree they did not need to they panicked], and I would still think it is likely /possible it will happen in my lifetime [ see what I did there] and there will definitely be another vote within my lifetime.

This thread will be just as the last one and i cannot keep repairing my irony meter so I shall leave you to be triumphant and spin against those who spin and lie and BS with “facts”

Northwind – Member
There seems to be a lot of interchangable use of “voters” “supporters” and “members” here too.

I am none of the above rather just a bystander.

It’s between Edward Longshanks and his subjects. 😛

From the SNP website

About Us
The SNP is a social democratic political party committed to Scottish independence. The party has been at the forefront of the campaign for Scottish independence for over seven decades.

QED – it’s raison d’être. But do keep on spinning or should I say reeling! It’s hilarious to hear this stuff enduring after the event. But excuse me thinking that SNP voters might think that this was a key issue. What was the swing factor, free bus passes in Cowdenbeath?

UKIP voters will be voting for fiscal union with Brussels next. “It doesn’t matter, they are not a single issue party!!!” 😀

free bus passes in Cowdenbeath?

If the passes helped folk to get the hell out of Cowdenbeath they’d be onto a winner.

Someone had better tell Ruth Davison quickly!!

Your LGBT and “get out of Cowdenbeath” card all in one – also not a single issue party, the straight folk wanting out of C’beath could vote too, even those wanting to go TO C’beath as it sounds like a bit of a free for all up there.

There is a lot splitting hairs going on today. No one can escape the fact that the referendum result was to stay in the union. An independent Scotland is a far away dream I am afraid. I don’t know what the current tactics of the yes campaign are, it is almost as if they want to bore everybody into submission by repeating the same old arguments.
Junkyard, I literally heard you groan when the topic of “would they/wouldn’t they still be in the EU” was mentioned. It is only a matter of time before the “it’s our pound” argument starts again.
After a comprehensive defeat the yes movement should not be trying to maintain momentum and keep up the pressure, they should instead go back to the drawing board and create a credible plan for an independent Scotland, you might want to start with what currency you would use 😉

fasternotfatter – Member

I don’t know what the current tactics of the yes campaign are,

Making the most of what they did win, basically.

teamhurtmore – Member

But excuse me thinking that SNP voters might think that this was a key issue. What was the swing factor, free bus passes in Cowdenbeath?

Of course it’s a key issue. But it’s not the only issue. A vote for the SNP at the elections wasn’t a vote for independence, it was a vote for the SNP to govern in the Scottish Parliament. An election pledge was to deliver a referendum on independence but that doesn’t mean that by voting SNP you want independence. Any more than a vote for a unionist party means you don’t want independence.

The swing factor is that more and more people choose the SNP to run the country, because they like what they’ve done in power. Again I’m not sure you can genuinely fail to understand this sort of basic stuff.

they should instead go back to the drawing board and create a credible plan for an independent Scotland, you might want to start with what currency you would use

True, there is a first time for everything and a credible plan would be a start for sure.

@epic, of course most Yes supporters would accept full devolution as it’s the best of both worlds, full political independence with the UK standing being Scotland financially if the Scots screw up.

The Yes campaigners are welcome to keep pushing on, we would expect them to do that. However they need to accept that they had a chance and they could not carry the argument. They should also accept the UKs right to hold a referendum to decide whether the Scots should be permitted another vote

fasternotfatter – Member

There is a lot splitting hairs going on today. No one can escape the fact that the referendum result was to stay in the union.

Of course there is no escaping the result. The only thing the Scottish people can take away from this lesson is the fact DemonCracy works.

DemonCracy is about majority rule and if you have a tiny incumbent population that will work against you, especially with free migration. The same situation is happening with UK and EU technocrats now.

If Scotland really want to have a level playing field then they should:

1. Limit new migrants voting rights for a period of time.
2. Change the way voting is counted.

🙄

It amazes me that anyone could think that a single referendum was going to settle this and that independence should never be discussed again, especially given how narrow the margin was. The vote didn’t somehow suddenly make discussion on Scottish independence illegal either.

The most interesting things about the referendum for me were:
1) How narrow the result was in the end (I’d been expecting 60:40)
2) How panicked the UK parties got as the vote approached
3) How the momentum appears to have been maintained by the SNP despite losing the vote. I think the UK parties (and Labour in particular) thought a loss in the referendum would mean the death of the SNP.
4) How badly support for Labour in Scotland appears to have collapsed

This is a long, long way from over and nothing I’m seeing in the likely politics over the next 5-10 years is going to change that. The best thing for the Unionists would be a clear Labour victory in the next general election – including winning the majority of the seats in both England and Scotland. Anything other than that (and I don’t personally think that’s a likely result) is going to put this issue back on the table. Some potential results might even see the discussion being led from England rather than Scotland i.e. if Labour take a majority of seats in the UK but don’t have a majority in England. We’ve now had a couple of major Labour politicians in Scotland saying they won’t stand at the next general election, and there is a fair bit of speculation that it’s down to serious concerns about whether their seats are now winnable against the SNP. It’d be highly amusing as well if Labour chose an MP as their next leader in Scotland and he then lost his seat at the general election. Not impossible going by current polling.

It’s going to be a very, very interesting couple of years for politics in Scotland, and the referendum was just the kicking off point for that – not the endgame.

FFS’s
jambalaya – Member

@epic, of course most Yes supporters would accept full devolution as it’s the best of both worlds, full political independence with the UK standing being Scotland financially if the Scots screw up.

The Yes campaigners are welcome to keep pushing on, we would expect them to do that. However they need to accept that they had a chance and they could not carry the argument. They should also accept the UKs right to hold a referendum to decide whether the Scots should be permitted another vote

The ‘impartial media’ lol, and the London machine. Done a good job of persuading/scaring voters.

This was a massive opportunity for Scotland to be rid of big family corruption.
But it’s that corruption that cost us a yes majority.

Watch the money masters, then ye might learn something.

Somebody on here mentioned that the current thinking was another referendum before 2020. If the yes camp lost that then would it not be an indication that Scotland doesn’t want independence. At what point will the SNP accept defeat and get on with actually running Scotland?

If the yes camp lost that then would it not be an indication that Scotland doesn’t want independence. At what point will the SNP accept defeat and get on with actually running Scotland?

It would depend on the margin. If the gap had narrowed then there is no way it’d put it to bed. If it’s widened to say over 60% No then it might.

They should also accept the UKs right to hold a referendum to decide whether the Scots should be permitted another vote

That’d be something that’d 100% ensure independence happened IMHO.

A fair point Steve. I am not trying to run down the yes camp, I just think at some point this is going to start harming Scotland and widening already existing divisions. It really needs putting to bed sooner rather than later.

It really needs putting to bed sooner rather than later.

No way is it going to be put to bed anytime soon, and it’ll always come up when there is Tory led government in the UK.

fasternotfatter – Member

At what point will the SNP accept defeat and get on with actually running Scotland?

They’ve never stopped.

Indeed again, while hopefully respecting the democratic process that showed that a majority of Scots preferred to remain within the union. Please don’t dismiss that desire as easily as your comments suggest. This is democracy remember?

Surely asking the question again once the dust has settled down and we see what UK Gov’t has done to back up its promises is the most democratic thing to do.

Northwind – Member

fasternotfatter – Member

At what point will the SNP accept defeat and get on with actually running Scotland?

They’ve never stopped. [/quote]

Never until Scotland gains full independence.

If 80% of Scottish people say No to independence then you can say the issue has been put to bed forever.

If you have 40% or more that wants independence then there is an issue here. They need to be heard and given the chance to have referendum as often as they wish …

🙂