Ok, so what is your reasoning, from the information we have, that would make Starmer hold his position of not requesting a ceasefire

I’ve voiced my opinions on this elsewhere in this thread. But essentially, money and power. And this:Secondly the reason imo that Starmer won’t support an immediate ceasefire is because he doesn’t believe that as a soon-to-be UK Prime Minister he should be taking a position at odds with that of the United States.

He’s a British establishment figure. As such, he will only take a stance according to what that establishment demands of its members. He will not rock the boat, or do anything to upset the establishment in anyway. 

‘Starmer is also an islamophobic, so that probably plays a part in his unwavering support for Zionism.’

Nonsense.

I don’t believe it’s ‘nonsense’. I have good reason for this belief. And as mentioned; there is plenty of evidence for this. 

‘Starmer is also an islamophobic, so that probably plays a part in his unwavering support for Zionism.’

John Kirby’s White House briefing today is worth watching for updates on negotiations (see also the similar message from Qatar in the past 24 hours).
https://www.c-span.org/video/?531980-1/white-house-daily-briefing

A lot of people here will disagree, but IMO Starmer agrees with the Biden administration because it’s the only position that can be reasonably be taken with Hamas, a hostage-taking terrorist organisation who’ve promised more October 7th style attacks and were still firing rockets at Israel as of today. I recommend watching Kirby’s answer on the use of the word “genocide” in the briefing at 26:15.

I also thought Jonathan Freedland was good in the Guardian last Friday on Hamas and Netanyahu.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/17/hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-ceasefire

“So Washington, Brussels and London currently back Israel because they agree that no peace is possible without the removal of Hamas. They are much less clear that no peace is possible without the removal of Netanyahu and his henchmen. Yet both can be true.”

It has nothing to do with defeating Hamas, they know damn well that they can’t. There are approximately half a million boys under the age of 18 in Gaza, so far in the last month the Israelis have only managed to kill two or three thousand of them.

The Palestinian resistance which the Israeli are currently fighting are the children who survived the previous six military attacks Israel has launched against Gaza in the last 15 years.

Even if Israel drives the Palestinians out of Gaza and into the Sinai Desert, as many believe they are considering, it will not bring them security.

The Palestinian people will not disappear and the Zionists can never win this war.

Nada Tarbush, Palestinian representative to the United Nations, decimates Israeli lies and propaganda in this eloquent and powerful speech to the UN. She perfectly articulates what is happening and should be shared widely.Speech to UN here

this eloquent and powerful speech to the UN.

I have listened to her speech several times now, it is the best description of the current situation that I have yet heard.

Importantly she emphasises that this is a struggle between the Palestinian people and zionism, not Jews, whom she refers to as brothers and sisters.

There are approximately half a million boys under the age of 18 in Gaza, so far in the last month the Israelis have only managed to kill two or three thousand of them.

The Palestinian resistance which the Israeli are currently fighting are the children who survived the previous six military attacks Israel has launched against Gaza in the last 15 years.

This. Also worth mentioning that the current (or shortly to be ex-) Hamas leadership saw their fathers executed by IOF. No wonder they have a certain world view.

I also thought Jonathan Freedland was good in the Guardian last Friday

That seemed unlikely, so I made the mistake of reading the article and indeed my suspicion was well founded. The ususal pro-Israel soft left garbage. I remind the reader that Israel is a democracy which repeatedly elects Netanyahu, so pretending that it’s all an aberration and Israelis actually want peace and justice will not wash. “There can be no peace with Hamas” – sure, but Hamas is there for a reason – poverty and despair. Phrase it as “there can be no peace with poverty and despair” and you might approach a solution.

The ususal pro-Israel soft left garbage.

Especially for you DrJ :

Netanyahu, so pretending that it’s all an aberration and Israelis actually want peace and justice will not wash.

Most Israelis want peace, justice and not to have their limbs removed while they are still alive, or their children raped or kidnapped. Voting for a militaristic hard right party hasn’t given their people that. But of course many did not and would not vote for Netanyahu, but can be still be victims amongst all this. Among those brutally killed in October were Jewish peace activists that helped to reunite Palestinian families, both through legal assistance and by putting themselves in harms way as drivers.

I would just kindly request that those honestly and genuinely wanting peace… with a vital first step to that being a halt to the Israeli government’s current military action… please remember to open your hearts to all innocents living in fear.

Yeah, it is sort of the same as me (being a UK resident) being assumed as supporting the tory government and anything they do. In the last 13 years I can’t remember a single thing they have done that I think was a good thing.

Yeah, it is sort of the same as me (being a UK resident) being assumed as supporting the tory government and anything they do. In the last 13 years I can’t remember a single thing they have done that I think was a good thing.

It’s a bit like that. Maybe a bit more like Tony Blair starting an Iraq war over and over again and people still voting for him.

I also thought Jonathan Freedland was good in the Guardian last Friday on Hamas and Netanyahu.

There’s nothing in that opinion piece that hasn’t been covered on this thread, and nothing that hasn’t been said already for decades, by people with far more experience and insight than Jonathan Freedland. It’ is worth pointing out that Freedland is himself a committed zionist, so hardly an objective perspective. Freedland is also a supporter of the Labour right, so won’t be offering any criticism of Starmer. 

I would just kindly request that those honestly and genuinely wanting peace… with a vital first step to that being a halt to the Israeli government’s current military action… please remember to open your hearts to all innocents living in fear.

This has to be the absolute base starting point. There can be no mealy-mouthed ‘oh but Hamas’ whataboutery. The focus has to be on the root of power, and that is Western capitalist imperialism. Because all that is happening now, is a direct result of that. 

That seemed unlikely, so I made the mistake of reading the article and indeed my suspicion was well founded. The ususal pro-Israel soft left garbage. I remind the reader that Israel is a democracy which repeatedly elects Netanyahu, so pretending that it’s all an aberration and Israelis actually want peace and justice will not wash. “There can be no peace with Hamas” – sure, but Hamas is there for a reason – poverty and despair. Phrase it as “there can be no peace with poverty and despair” and you might approach a solution.

The overall mood in Israel has turned much more to hatred and revenge, understandably, and even many of the more liberal voices have become more vengeful. It’s important to acknowledge that Israeli media will be heavily biased and not be reporting the full facts of the genocide in Gaza. Ha’aretz =/= the ‘Israeli media’. My wife’s family are much less ‘liberal’ than they were a few weeks ago; her nephew now wants to get into the action and avenge the murders of innocent Israelis. He has been brainwashed by the most effective military machine on the planet. And whilst there is profit in war, so Israel will continue to have a belligerent right-wing regime. And whilst Western leaders continue to support that regime by not demanding a ceasefire, so the genocide will continue. 

The overall mood in Israel has turned much more to hatred and revenge,

We are too humane, burn Gaza now says Deputy Knesset speaker

We are too humane, burn Gaza now says Deputy Knesset speaker

My wife is now calling the Israeli regime ‘fascist’, something a Labour MP was forced to apologise for some time ago. And I think that statements like these:

“We are too humane. Burn Gaza now, no less!”

“Israel should leave just “one old man” alive in Gaza so he could “tell everyone” what happened there.”

“Gaza should be wiped off the map.”

Kind of prove that.

And then there’s this:
“Yet another Likud lawmaker, Tally Gotliv, demanded nothing less than a “doomsday kiss”—that is, use of Israel’s undeclared nuclear weapons. “Not flattening a neighborhood,” she clarified, but “crushing and flattening Gaza. Without mercy!””

Nice. I’m assuming the nuclear weapons held in Israel (that the government denies exist) are ultimately controlled by the USA, and that the launch codes are not held by such fascist nut cases.

There can no longer be any doubt that the Israeli regime is every bit as evil as Hamas. The only difference bing the number of weapons of mass destruction held. Kier Starmer is currently aligning himself with people fascists who want to use nuclear weapons to murder millions of innocent people. I’m sure he and his supporters are happy with his choices.

The overall mood in Israel has turned much more to hatred and revenge

Indeed it has…

Please tell me that isn’t real…

Apparently it has been fact-checked and is indeed real, although the Israeli state broadcaster has now removed it.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/20/israeli-children-singing-annihilate-gaza/

Careful lads, the thread is drifting. We can’t have this one closed as well.

I wonder if Starmer will be singing along.

Careful lads, the thread is drifting. We can’t have this one closed as well.

It’s directly relevant to the thread because Starmer is a self-declared supporter of the state of Israel and still refuses to call for a ceasefire despite the fact that the vast majority of his party, and a majority in the country disagrees with him.

Okay cokey, just saying. It’s a decent thread, be a shame to lose it.

Ok; to address the issue of Islamophobia in the Labour party, Kier Starmer issued an ‘apology’ following the publication of the Forde report, stating:

“As Leader of the Labour Party, I want to reiterate that apology to those affected for the culture and attitudes expressed by senior staff in the leaked report. This was unacceptable and they deserve an apology.

I know an apology alone is not enough and that is why, working with the General Secretary, we have taken steps to change the culture of the Party. This work is underway.

The Forde Report provides concrete recommendations to help us achieve that, and I want to work with all those effected to drive this work through our party and ensure this never happens again.”

Yet nothing has actually changed. Indeed, the author of that report, commissioned by Kier Starmer, Martin Forde KC, was moved to publicly state there is a ‘hierarchy of racism’ within Labour, and that other forms of racism weren’t given the same level of scrutiny as antisemitism. I believe all forms of xenophobia should be treated with equal gravity. The Labour party leadership has failed to actually do anything about this. Those screaming so loudly about antisemitism have now gone silent. In my opinion, if you don’t treat all forms as equally concerning, then you are a hypocrite. And that goes for those who denounce any attempt to tackle genuine antisemitism within the party too. Sadly, there are too many in the upper echelons of the party who were complicit in Blair’s ‘war on terror’ which saw the demonisation of Islam, and still negatively affects not only all Muslims, but also other people of south Asian heritage (because idiot racists can’t distinguish between different cultures and religions). And Starmer isn’t going to ever do anything about that. 

I’m assuming the nuclear weapons held in Israel (that the government denies exist) are ultimately controlled by the USA

More “the US are the secret masters of Israel, Israel is just an American colony” conspiracy theory nonsense.

More “the US are the secret masters of Israel, Israel is just an American colony” conspiracy theory nonsense.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but my comment was merely an ‘assumption’ that the well-documented Israeli nuclear weapons are ultimately controlled by the USA. Which really does not want a nuclear war kicking off anywhere. Given that there are some absolute extremist nut cases in the current Israeli government, who would be only too happy to turn Gaza to glass, it’s really not much of a stretch to assume the US does have some control over the use of those weapons. I very much doubt that Israel would have any nuclear weapons without US approval; bearing in mind the US doesn’t like the fact that Iran, Pakistan and North Korea have such weapons. The USA has enormous influence over Israel, this cannot be denied. I could well be wrong re the nukes, but none of us really know the truth. Trying to dismiss my idea as ‘conspiracy theory nonsense’ only shows up your own partisanship here. What’s your view of Kier Starmer standing in support of a nation whose leaders want to ‘burn Gaza’?

[Mod] Everyone, please keep this on topic. Thanks.

Yet nothing has actually changed.

Indeed. Yesterday I googled “expelled from the Labour Party for anti-semitism”, I found a multitude of examples including of course Jews who have been expelled for anti-semitism.

I then googled “expelled from the Labour Party for islamophobia” I couldn’t find a single example.

Good opening statement from Starmer on Gaza at PMQs today.

All following questions on NHS waiting lists and spending on mental health services, especially for young people.

George Monbiot articulating what Labour can’t – in the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/22/britain-money-bank-bailouts-state-failure

The most robust argument that should be made, now.

^ Good arcticle.

A crushing defeat for Labour in Newham yesterday:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1838491/Labour-London-vote-collapses-Palestine-Starmer#amp-readmore-target

The crisis which the ongoing genocide in Gaza has caused Starmer now goes beyond the sole issue of calling for a ceasefire, the whole moral integrity of the Labour Party is now being questioned.

The by-election material shown in the Express article also refers to social and financial justice. Starmer is losing grip of both the agenda and the narrative.

In the last two to three weeks politics local to me changed very dramatically with two completely new organisations springing up.

Gaza might have been the catalyst but one is now looking way beyond that with the aim of forming a grand alliance across the community to oust shadow minister Steve Reed and replace him with someone who can be held accountable.

I did suspect that other similar and under reported local developments might be occurring across the country, events in Newham yesterday suggests this could be the case.

Blimey, now they’ve dropped the green agenda I’m struggling to think of what they stand for apart from fiscal conservatism, more privatizing of the NHS and making the desert boom.

They’re totally boxed in with their utterly ridiculous fiscal rules. Reeves is behaving like a clown over all of this.

Fiscal rules are a total work fiction, self -imposed and without reasoning. Further to that – damaging, if you want a functioning state.

They banged on about 28bn for Green stuff (not enough) and non-dom pay-fors’. And now it’s coming home to roost.

The country is in a dire situation and the next government needs to damn well start admitting that we can do it and afford it.

We can’t afford not to.

If they did – they might even get their beloved growth that both parties mince on about.

It’s so easy to take apart the mess that are the Tories but the hope that Labour should be – must also be challenged.

Anyone know what Reeves means by a ‘fiscal rule’? Never saw it in a textbook or tutorial. I can only imagine it means she can’t be challenged.

The original interpretation was

1) never *borrow for day to day spending. (Whatever that means because day to day things need money. Doh.)

2nd: can *borrow to invest.

*( the caveat that borrowing is simply matched debt/gilt issuance to what the government has already spent. I.e Government spends £100 which happens first, Government then issues £100 of gilts. Government borrowing is a throw back to gold standard, and is not borrowing as we would understand it. The Government can’t borrow what it issues or has already issued.)

Most state spending is simply investment anyway as the return comes via the money circulation through the economy.

Either way – Rach believes wrongly the economy can expand without spending, to generate the tax to then invest in public services.

She has it totally back to front. Government has to spend first to make the investment so that the non-government sector can grow.

I also think ‘fiscal rules’ will become a vague moving target to justify not doing things.

If the voters hold labour accountable for the actions of israel, letting in the tories, the world really has gone mad……

If the voters hold labour accountable for the actions of israel, letting in the tories, the world really has gone mad……

Think a lot on this thread deserve Sunak et al for another 5 years, their hatred of the current labour leader outweighs anything the tories have done.

If the voters hold labour accountable for the actions of israel

This is something which worries you?

It’s all a bit confusing…….

Labour denies abandoning £28bn green pledge

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-67528894

Labour ‘unlikely’ to ever meet £28bn a year green pledge

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-rachel-reeves-labour-ps28bn-green-b2453310.html

Still, I guess it doesn’t really matter how confusing it all is as voters will just vote for whatever Reeves and Starmer eventually decide.

That’s how it’s supposed to work, no?

This is something which worries you?

I would be worried if i was held accountable for something i had no responsibility, or even an ability to have any influence, reality is Netanyahu and Israel probably have no idea who Starmer is, let alone why him calling for a ceasefire would mean anything to them.

Think a lot on this thread deserve Sunak et al for another 5 years,

Dunno about anyone else but you deserve a Braverman or Farage led quasi-fascist government with a massive majority in five years time after Labour get unceremoniously kicked to the kerb because they did nothing to improve people’s lives and made no to attempt to fix the broken unrepresentative system that allows governments like this into power.

It’s not a football match. The most important thing isn’t that one team or another win.

Dunno about anyone else but you deserve a Braverman or Farage led quasi-fascist government with a massive majority in five years time after Labour get unceremoniously kicked to the kerb because they did nothing to improve people’s lives and made no to attempt to fix the broken unrepresentative system that allows governments like this into power.

You’re right, seems pointless to vote labour in, you’ve already worked out what they’ll do over a 5 year term, might as well stick with Sunak, Cameron et al and just slowly go from centre right to further right