Viewing 40 posts - 21,761 through 21,800 (of 21,869 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • doris5000
    Full Member

    even still, though.  She is the absolute worst of the worst. I’m really uncomfortable with her being welcomed into the party, even for a month.  I don’t think it sends a good message at all.

    doris5000
    Full Member

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Agreed.

    I can’t follow that link to the Times though, but from what I remember of past reporting her defence of her husband made her a very poor choice to replace him as MP, and plenty of Labour MPs must be very uncomfortable about this defection. I doubt she’ll have any involvement with Labour locally or nationally now though…. the defection is just about cynically maximising the damage to her old party… becoming an independent would be a very quiet event in comparison.

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    and plenty of Labour MPs must be very uncomfortable about this defection.

    Not to mention plenty of potential Labour voters.

    Not sure what Starmer’s thinking was here.

    intheborders
    Free Member

    None of this is going to change under Starmer though so are we now just waiting for whoever replaces him and hoping they won’t be just the same?

    #1 Rule, get elected.

    Starmer isn’t stupid, he knows that until he’s sat in Number 10 he has to toe the line – once there then he can (start) to run with the policies he wants to., but has to be careful.

    Let’s go back to 1997 with Blair & Brown, they knew that they had to toe the line too, and successfully did plus made enough changes that it took the Tories over a decade to destroy their work – this is what Starmer has to do too.

    Remember how gullible far too many voters can be – just look at the current clamour to leave the ECHR.  They’re literally demanding to lose their own human rights, #usefulidiots

    MSP
    Full Member

    Starmer isn’t stupid, he knows that until he’s sat in Number 10 he has to toe the line – once there then he can (start) to run with the policies he wants to., but has to be careful.

    Sorry I can’t agree with that, there has never been a better time to highlight the failings of the tory/neoliberal economic policies. Failing to make those arguments now, when through on an open goal, shows IMO that there is no intention of changing tact after winning an election.

    I find it odd that the same group of people who think the tories are being dragged rightward by reform and the ERG headbangers are so dismissive of the same impact on Labour. In my lifetime I cannot think of many if any times when the body politic has conceded ground to the right wing, and that has appeased them.  To continually keep conceding the argument in the expectation that you can easily regain that position later is just a demonstratable failed approach.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Remember how gullible far too many voters can be – just look at the current clamour to leave the ECHR. They’re literally demanding to lose their own human rights, #usefulidiots

    What clamour? I think that you might have fallen for right-wing Tory propaganda, ironically.

    Less than a quarter of the public think Britain should leave the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), according to a new poll.

    It also found that pledging to leave the ECHR at the election would lose twice as many votes for the Conservatives as they would gain from the promise.

    https://archive.li/2023.08.20-232034/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/poll-suggests-leaving-echr-would-cost-the-tories-votes-b8bzlpb6h

    somafunk
    Full Member

    Any sign of Diane Abbot being accepted back into the Labour Party now that they are accepting racists and rape apologists?, or is the shite that the likes of David Mencer threw at her just too much to wash off

    rone
    Full Member

    Hear hear MSP.

    rone
    Full Member

    #1 Rule, get elected

    1) Not happended – yet

    2) Stronger leftist arguments are more useful in seeing off Tory failure and help change the narrative.

    3) Long-term Labour are just helping cement the idea that running the country with conservative policy is the only way as long as we do it better than the Tories. Busted flush – Conservative policy has failed us, that’s why there so much contempt for the Tories. The irony is mind blowing.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Starmer isn’t stupid, he knows that until he’s sat in Number 10 he has to toe the line – once there then he can (start) to run with the policies he wants to

    So you feel he is a doing a Johnson?  Doing whatever it takes to get power?

    You dont see any problems with this approach? How it will continue to drag politics down and help the hard rights they are all the same as each other spiel?

    Exactly what will be the point of actively voting for a party rather than just rolling a dice to select the party to vote for?

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    Starmer isn’t stupid, he knows that until he’s sat in Number 10 he has to toe the line – once there then he can (start) to run with the policies he wants to

    Maybe.

    But how sure are you that the policies you want him to enact are in any way compatible with the policies he wants to enact?

    There is no 4d chess being played here, people just WANT him to be better and maybe if they really really concentrate hard he might just deliver. But he won’t. He’s going to remain true to form and we’ll have another 5 years of the same shite.

    somafunk
    Full Member

    Cold War Steve nails it yet again

    kerley
    Free Member

    He’s going to remain true to form and we’ll have another 5 years of the same shite.

    The thing that will change is that we won’t see the culture war shit and contempt for people in need which will be a nice rest and even though none of that stuff the tories say actually ends up happening it is still not helping.

    The obvious problem will be when we hear the “I voted for Labour and 4 years later my life is no different at all so will be voting tory again as I have completely forgotten how **** awful the tories were”

    rone
    Full Member

    Starmer isn’t stupid, he knows that until he’s sat in Number 10 he has to toe the line – once there then he can (start) to run with the policies he wants to

    But the ideas (floating concept for him) he wants to run with will probably be policies that align with the right.

    If he believes he needs to ‘act’ like a right-wing cut-out to gain power then to maintain power why would he swing left? (And governments don’t )

    Besides it’s an incoherent way of doing things and it’s not hard (for the hundredth time) to make good anti-conservative but pro-electorate policy arguments.

    Centrists seem to never understand being a Centrist means endorsing right-wing failure just to gain power. That is your literally your coup d’état.

    I see tip-top Centrists Marina Purkiss and Supertanskiii – are not impressed with Sir Starmer’s latest antics.

    And rightly so. Have some moral backbone – instead of simply trying to deconstruct Starmer’s moves as ‘clever’ when effectively it’s all bit pathetic.

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    The thing that will change is that we won’t see the culture war shit and contempt for people in need

    I remain to be convinced. Nothing from Labour has suggested rolling us back to 2010 employment legislation, benefits etc. Let alone making actual progress.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    The thing that will change is that we won’t see the culture war shit and contempt for people in need

    I wish I could be confident in that being true. The reality is that the culture war shit will almost certainly intensify when we have a Labour government.

    It’s not easy for the Tories to be critical of government policies on immigration, terrorism, prisons, equal rights, asylum seekers, etc, when they are in government. Once in opposition, which they will be after the next general election, they won’t be pulling any punches and they will certainly up the antis.

    I can visualise the screaming Daily Mail/Daily Telegraph right now. The question is how will prime minister Starmer respond?

    Based on his track record as leader of the opposition how likely do you think it is that he will firmly reject the Tory and right-wing press’s agenda?

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/16/keir-starmer-past-scrutiny

    The largest group of benefits prosecutions concern the minor infractions of people who fail to declare a piece of information. For example, when part-time workers on housing benefit fail to tell the authorities that their hours at work have increased. Starmer’s words (“getting one over on the system”) were wide enough so that it seemed he was referring to such groups of claimants. And, in doing so, he evoked tabloid myths about undeserving individuals deliberately and systematically milking the system. To speak of claimants in this way was to denigrate them.

    Starmer’s enthusiasm while DPP for using mundane news events to feed the press with rightwing talking points is a possible concern for Labour members. If such a leader was faced with news of an injustice in the future – the consequence of a change to immigration rules, say, or of a strike in public services – Starmer’s approach to the press as DPP might raise worries that he would not give a principled defence of the victims but would tell the press whatever it wanted to hear.

    nickc
    Full Member

    But the ideas (floating concept for him) he wants to run with will probably be policies that align with the right.

    But ‘right wing’ policies have always been part of the Labour offer; strong policing, and criminal justice system a nuclear deterrent, restrictions on immigration, (historically) leaving the EU. Having FPTP squashes and overlaps the two main parties. In any other European system Labour (and for that matter the Tories as well) would be 3-4 different parties making and breaking coalitions each election.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    Having FPTP squashes and overlaps the two main parties. In any other European system Labour (and for that matter the Tories as well) would be 3-4 different parties making and breaking coalitions each election.

    A large Labour majority will not be easy to manage, and the higher the number of MPs the bigger the disagreements will be.

    Starmer seems determined not just to win the next election but set Labour up for a long time in power, partly by breaking the Tories (though theyre doing that without too much help thanks to brexit among other things) but also by getting a broad coalition of voters on board. Thats not an easy task, especially in those disenfranchised red wall seats who seem happy to swing behind whichever party offers them a better future.

    nickc
    Full Member

    A large Labour majority will not be easy to manage, and the higher the number of MPs the bigger the disagreements will be.

    I disagree. With so many MP and from such a broad spectrum of views, will in all likely decrease the number of disagreements.

    If you’ve got teeny majority every vote becomes a knife-edge thing, and forces the whips to push recalcitrant MPs into voting in ways they don’t necessarily want to. With a massive majority, it no longer becomes an issue.  The MPs who feel they can’t support can avoid it as it’s less impactful. Similarly you can let your MP introduce things that as a leadership you may have otherwise been against and they can stand/fall on the strength of the vote.

    alanl
    Free Member

    “Starmer seems determined not just to win the next election but set Labour up for a long time in power, partly by breaking the Tories (though theyre doing that without too much help thanks to brexit among other things “

    I agree with the part in brackets, – the Tories have screwed up their own chances, and keep doing stupid things, rather than have a strategy to get out of it. I fail to see what Keir Starmer, or the Labour party, have done to bring about their downfall. As I see it he hasnt done much at all, people are sick of the Tories, and want change. A donkey with a red badge could win the next election. But seriously, what is Labour going to do that is different? All I hear is much of the same when they get in. They’ll win it not because they are good, but because the Tories are so bad.

    kerley
    Free Member

     The reality is that the culture war shit will almost certainly intensify when we have a Labour government.

    While your prediction of the future cannot be called ‘the reality’ you may have a point there as I had not thought about the tories continuing with it but it really all depends who is left in the tory party.

    I do sense a lot of disappointed voters in a few years time though who will rightly be questioning why nothing has changed.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    As I see it he hasnt done much at all, people are sick of the Tories, and want change.

    If you think the opposition haven’t been key in exposing the failures of a series of Tory leaders, well, that’s because you’re only looking at the outcome of the politics of the last five years, rather than the detail of how things have come to light and had light shone on them. Starmer and his team have done an amazing job of keeping the focus on Tory failings, despite many attempts by the media to create false equivalencies and drum up empty investigations into key Labour people. The speed at which negative stories have been shut down, by promises to resign or quick overly harsh sackings, has been a great contrast to Tory attempts to deflect and hold on.

    it really all depends who is left in the tory party

    Even if there’s literally no-one left in the Tory party, if the next government is a Labour led one, then right wing agitators will absolutely double down on the culture wars to try and move the country back to them… or at least to carve out a space for attention and money making. The culture wars are here to stay. Sadly.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    A large Labour majority will not be easy to manage, and the higher the number of MPs the bigger the disagreements will be.

    Yup, definitely this. If there is a huge Labour majority I expect the arguments to start the Monday after the general election.

    Tiny barely working majorities is what maintains parliamentary party discipline. The threat of losing a confidence vote and forcing an early election is a very powerful tool. No Labour MP wants to be responsible for that.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    A donkey with a red badge could win the next election.

    corbyn couldnt

    All I hear is much of the same when they get in.

    Im not going to pretend that Starmer has mad charisma or that he hasnt made some very daft mistakes but according to this  https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Power-and-partnership-Labours-Plan-to-Power-up-Britain.pdf

    a national wealth fund, planning law reform, mandatory housing targets, reform of workers rights (some of them) A nationalised energy supplier, renationalising rail, devolved local government with their own growth plan, new towns ,

    mostly its a lot of stuff we stopped doing, but theres some new ideas in there too.

    Will it all happen- no,

    will stuff that does happen be watered down- yes

    will some of them fail utterly- yes

    Will it be better than what we have now- most definitely

    starmer is way more ruthless than I thought he would be , for better or worse hes willing to make compromises to get the top job, honestly that makes me uneasy, but its naive to think that he wont have to do this stuff to become PM

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    A donkey with a red badge could win the next election.

    corbyn couldnt

    You think there is no reason for the Tories to be less popular now than they were in 2019?

    You think that the current huge Labour lead over the Tories is down to who is leader of the Labour Party?

    You think that the current situation is unaffected by Tories hemorrhaging votes to Reform UK, a situation incomparable to 2019?

    Although Corbyn screwed up in 2019 by agreeing to Starmer’s insistence for a second referendum he did manage to secure a 40% share of the vote in the 2017 general election, which is not massively different to the level of support Labour are currently enjoying.

    Obviously if your point is that if Corbyn was leader now the right-wing and “centrist” Labour MPs would be doing everything possible to sabotage his chances of winning the general election you could well be correct. But I don’t think it was.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    You think there is no reason for the Tories to be less popular now than they were in 2019?-

    theyve made a bad situation worse, credit to Truss!!, even if Sunak did briefly turn things around

    You think that the current huge Labour lead over the Tories is down to who is leader of the Labour Party?

    hes steadied the ship (meanwhile HMS Tory has helpfully ricocheted from iceberg to iceberg)

    You think that the current situation is unaffected by Tories hemorrhaging votes to Reform UK, a situation incomparable to 2019?

    its certainly a huge help but as poling has showed at the Tories are able to get back 1/2 of reforms vote at best

    Flow-of-voters-since-the-last-general-election-Graph-1-2-771x431

    Although Corbyn screwed up in 2019 by agreeing to Starmer’s insistence for a second referendum he did manage to secure a 40% share of the vote in the 2017 general election, which is not massively different to the level of support Labour are currently enjoying.

    corbyns  favourability was waaay down before he pledged a 2nd ref, he was pretty much as disliked as Sunak is now,

    EHuiAF0XUAIjnED

    theres also been a fair bit of buyer remorse over brexit, tho arguably in 2019 many still believed that it could be made to work

    20240302_WOC923

    Obviously if your point is that if Corbyn was leader now the right-wing and “centrist” Labour MPs would be doing everything possible to sabotage his chances of winning the general election you could well be correct. But I don’t think it was.

    Starmer has been pretty efficient(ruthless) at neutering his critics in the party, as I said made me uneasy.

    rone
    Full Member

    theres also been a fair bit of buyer remorse over brexit, tho arguably in 2019 many still believed that it could be made to work

    But Starmer doesn’t think so does he other wise he wouldn’t take the position he does.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Starmer has been pretty efficient(ruthless) at neutering his critics in the party, as I said made me uneasy.

    Yeah you will hear barely a squeak out of MPs such as John McDonnell who are terrified of losing the Labour whip. Can you imagine if that muppet Corbyn had been half that ruthless instead of his “kinda politics” bollox?

    The question it poses is what sort of prime minister does someone who won’t tolerate dissent make? It’s not really an issue when in opposition but it’s a whole new ball game when in government.

    The other question it poses is how much can discipline been imposed when a general election is 5 years away and losing the Labour whip might not feel like such a big deal? I reckon Keir Starmer might find out fairly soon. Especially when discovers that being prime minister is a little harder than most people think. Although to be fair I don’t doubt that he already knows that.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    But Starmer doesn’t think so does he other wise he wouldn’t take the position he does.

    for good reason , it was a turnoff in 2019 because people didn’t want the division of another ref, itll be another electoral cycle before its discussed (major lols if Tories get there first)

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    The Labour Leader of Dover District Council, Kevin Mills, said what he has in common with Mrs Elphicke is “a limb on each corner of my body”.

    Made me chuckle – that’s not an expression which I have heard before 😆

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68984774

    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    Natalie Elphicke apologises for comments about ex-husband’s victims

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68984774

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Excellent letter in the Guardian:

    I’m waiting to see if Nadine Dorries announces that she is also defecting to Labour, and then see how long it takes Keir Starmer to realise that it’s all an elaborate practical joke.

    Daniel Owen

    Torrington, Devon

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    Starmer and his team have done an amazing job of keeping the focus on Tory failings

    If only they did half as good a job at keeping the focus on what they will do better. It’s exactly the same up here, can talk down the incumbent all day long but can’t give one solid example of how they will make things better other than vague promises.

    As for that “plan” I’m sorry, I can’t take that remotely seriously after reading this utter shite:

    In relation to the devolved governments of
    Scotland and Wales, the Tories have chosen
    cheap political arguments over respect and
    partnership-building. They have ridden roughshod
    over devolution arrangements and conventions,
    weakened relations and harmed opportunities to
    cooperate on the common challenges we face.

    That’s the same Labour Party that would deliberately oppose SNP motions that aligned with Labour policy out of pure political spite. See nationalised rail operators. At risk of going full TJ that, that’s gaslighting.

    The question it poses is what sort of prime minister does someone who won’t tolerate dissent make? It’s not really an issue when in opposition but it’s a whole new ball game when in government.

    That’s a very good question. If he actually had any sort of consistency with policy then you could say what he’s likely to push. But he doesnt. He’s someone consolidating power with no aims or goals for once he has it. Well, that’s not strictly true, by all indications he’s going to go back to the policies of the 2015 Cameron government. Remember how awesome that was?

    Anyone voting for this bunch of shysters will get exactly the government they deserve.

    alanl
    Free Member

    “a national wealth fund, planning law reform, mandatory housing targets, reform of workers rights (some of them) A nationalised energy supplier, renationalising rail, devolved local government with their own growth plan, new towns ,”

    No idea what a National Wealth fund is, so that meassage hasnt got out to the masses.
    Planning Law Reform, definitely needed, after suffering at the hands of our Council.
    Housing targets – easy to make targets, less easy to actually get them built.
    Workers rights, I thought we were pretty well off in that area anyway?
    Nationalised energy supplier. Total rubbish. It seems they want to seen to be doing something, and kidding people that it’ll be National Grid/British Gas again. It wont, they are in fantasy land. The only thing they’ll do is set up a supply Company, and hope people switch to it, but the power/gas will still come from privatised Companies.
    Nationalised rail. It’s already nationalised in all but name. Another falsehood, but the general public dont delve into the details.
    Devolved local Government, yes, a good thing, but they’ll still have the same spending pot, so not a lot will change, but they’ll now have a few more elected mayors.
    New Towns. Unlikely. Big plans take a long time. HS2 could be built in 2 years, but the planning process/procurement takes 7+ years, planning a town will take longer, it wont happen.

    There’s little there to make people vote for them, as I said earlier, the Tories are so bad that they cannot be voted in again, it isnt because people think Labour will be a great change, they just think Labour will do better, and Labour are living up to that promise in pretty much saying ‘business as usual with a few tweaks when we’re in’.

    skooby39
    Free Member

    To me, Kier seems to be doing the right thing, although I’m as confused as the rest about the recent defection.

    The job of politicians is to represent the views of the electorate, and Corbyn proved twice, with open goal elections, that the country doesn’t want a ‘progressive’ socialist revolution.  The consensus right now is likely a slightly left of centre direction in terms of policy.  If Kier and Labour move to the left once elected the Conservatives will be back in at the next cycle.

    Both the Tories and Labour are split the same on Brexit.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-05-09/labour-talking-to-more-tory-mps-about-defecting-streeting-claims

    This one of the most astonishing things that I have read in a long time.

    Wes Streeting justifies welcoming Natalie Elphicke into the Labour Party with open arms because of her concerns about immigration. Streeting: “Natalie Elphicke who is with her community seeing the consequences of what happens when immigration goes poorly managed”.

    The article then goes on to point out that “Labour MPs have criticised the decision to admit Ms Elphicke to the party, citing her hardline views on immigration”.

    So her concerns about immigration is what Wes Streeting likes about Natalie Elphicke, and it is her hardline views on immigration that Labour MPs don’t like about Natalie Elphicke

    It would be amusing if this contradictory nonsense was the preserve of the Tories/Reform UK, not so funny coming from a Labour government waiting in the side-wings.

    kerley
    Free Member

    The job of politicians is to represent the views of the electorate, and Corbyn proved twice, with open goal elections, that the country doesn’t want a ‘progressive’ socialist revolution.

    Sounds like you fell for the anti BS about Corbyn if you think he was offering a progressive socialist revolution.  Most of the policies of that time were want people actually do want and would still want if Starmer offered them in what really is an open goal election now more than the two Corbyn elections.

    It is pretty clear that nobody is going to be voting Labour because of Starmers great policies is it.

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