Exactly what loss of W are we talking here?

Shimano…didn’t know Sram made an e bike motor

10T sprocket adds range on paper but loses so much efficiency that it’s pointless

You what? Really? Never noticed

Sram’s cassettes which are beautifully made, but ludicrously expensive and fundamentally flawed with the phoney hook of the pointless 10T sprocket.

Gx price is close to xt for lighter, more range and a better lasting cassette.

Shimano brakes had a blip with early M8000 and M9000/9020 but thankfully have that sorted.

Hmmmm. Not sure about that. My 785’s were powerful but always felt mushy even after being returned to Madison. My Zee’s weee pretty temperamental too. A friend is still running Shimano brakes (Zee’s and SLX). He seems to be constantly fiddling with them. A far cry from the early XT four pits and Saint brakes I ran.

Shimano definitely had SRAM licked with their 10 speed drivetrain and made me switch back to Shimano. Their clutch mechs seemed much better than the SRAM equivalent which still clattered like no mams business. This seem to have been resolved for the 11 speed.

I’m not 100% about Eagle though having heard about cranks not fitting perfectly into BB’s due to a gap and the official line is to pack with grease. It seems to have been rushed to market to get one over on Shimano, whereas 11 speed took a while and thought went into it. Plus the cassette looks silly.

‘Settled’ on 11 speed XT in the end.
Pretty happy with that 🙂

Shimano brakes had a blip with early M8000 and M9000/9020 but thankfully have that sorted.

I’ve no idea why anyone buys XTR brakes- high cost, low servicability, terrible combo.

Well, I’m that person – I have M9000 XTR Race brakes (the carbon lever version) and yes, I had a problem with my first set where the master cylinder would stick in high ambient temperatures. They were replaced by Madison without quibble and set #2 are working a treat.

And as to why I use them? Well, I’ve had Hope brakes a plenty for years and fancied a change. I find that the power and modulation is as good from the XTR brakes, but the big winner is that they simply don’t need to be fiddled with. I had to rebuild calipers on a reasonably regular basis with Hope brakes in the past and suffered from occasional sticky pistons, but tbh, the XTR ones have been good so far and I’ve not had to fiddle with them at all.

Regarding the rest of the drive train, IMHO, nothing shifts as well and as consistently as a high-end Shimano drive train (XT and XTR are actually pretty similar from a performance point of view) and I value that my own transmission has never caused me any shifting issues despite some reasonably inclement usage conditions:

(and yes, it was still shifting smoothly even with this lot on it!)

Used to run SRAM X-9 until I had a casting in the shifter die, so went over Shimano because I never had that problem with their shifters.

SRAM cassettes, XD/10t has left Shimano miles behind on range and Weight.

I don’t like SRAM rear mechs – the one I’ve used/set up ahve always had play and seemed fragile – I stick to XT or XTR for mechs/shifters, and like having the multiple shifts, I don’t think I’m a shifting obsessive like some though.

Brakes – have gone off Shimano, because I can’t service them, but have no desire to use SRAM ones, my time on Avids isn’t yet forgotten. Hope for me, thanks.

Cranks – am using RaceFace ones – Aeffect and cheap and excellent, had a set of carbon RaceFace fail, on warranty replacements now, so probably wouldn’t buy again. SRAM carbon cranks I ran in the past were faultless, would happily go back to them, same for Shimano, but they lack direct mount nowadays.

sillyoldman – Member
SRAM are good at concepts, but awful at making them a reality (top end cassettes being an exception).

10T sprocket adds range on paper but loses so much efficiency that it’s pointless.

Shimano brakes had a blip with early M8000 and M9000/9020 but thankfully have that sorted.

Construction of all parts is head and shoulders above from Shimano apart from Sram’s cassettes which are beautifully made, but ludicrously expensive and fundamentally flawed with the phoney hook of the pointless 10T sprocket.

For me Shimano win on 11 spd. SRAM win with their entry 12 spd stuff. For now…

SRAM cassettes aren’t ludicrously expensive – GX is similar price to XT, but lighter, lasts better, and has the range of the 10t – and the idea that in going from 11t to 10t you have some massive drop in efficiency is just silly, old man. It works just fine – it’s only one tooth less.

Ive always thought the looks of sram put me of. Shimano not always the best looking either but still

In case it’s not already been done, which is ‘better’.

There’s only two in the comparison.

I’ve irrational hatred of SRAM brakes after some old Avid Juicys which were the worst thing in the world. All my bikes are Shimano 1×11, apart from the hardtail which had used wheels with XD driver and I have to admit the SRAM 10-42 cassette is a work of art.

It’s interesting to see how long people hold grudges 😉

I still remember pre shadow shimano mechs that had a life span of days at one point 😉

SRAM for me. I have GX 11 speed on one bike, and SRAM XX on the other. With hope brakes on both bikes.

The quality of Shimano stuff has dropped in the past few years in my opinion. This is evident in the number of warranty claims I have to make on Shimano components now! The new Dura Ace 9100 groupset is a case in point. Compared to Dura Ace 9000 the quality has dropped massively.

I can’t say I’ve come across a seized clutch mechanism on a SRAM mech’ yet either. If I had a pound for every seized clutch I’ve seen on a Shimano XT mech’ I’d be able to afford an Eagle groupset 😀

At the moment, for me, SRAM have MTB drivetrain duties nailed. 5 11 speed and 1 12 speed systems in the Howard household and not had a single issue with any of it, save a bit of cable tension adjustment.

As for brakes, bit more even, I was a little disappointed my last 2 mtb purchases didn’t have shimano brakes, instead they had guides (RS on one, ultimate on another) and I’m very happy with them. Not tried the latest shimano versions but they are as good, maybe better than my shimanos (I’m on 9/7 85 series shimano)

For road stuff, inc hydro discs, shimano is king for me, can’t stand doubletap, and won’t try etap, as I know I’ll want it…

Was just about to get Shimano xt 11 speed, think I’ll have a think about it now. Know nothing about sram and it seems quite expensive.

Know nothing about sram and it seems quite expensive.

XT and GX are comparable for price with IMHO GX beating it on spec. So very much worth a look, from what I’m seeing XT isn’t good value in the drivetrain markets these days

Shimano : it just works. I would have agreed prior to the current XT. I don’t anymore. They’ve made the shifters feel more positive, as in requiring more effort and now they feel cheap and entry level. Even worse, they are now inconsistent. Go to a shop and compare identical XT M8000 shifters from bike to bike : they’re all different in feel for some reason.

Worse still, my M8000 XT rear mech clutch has failed after 3 “easy” summer months. Will see how good they are at giving me a new one through CRC.

Switching to SRAM cassette in the meantime. The Shimano XT cassette is medieval in both range and weight. They need to make a decision on a new freehub body that will take 10t.

Big fan of Shimano for 25 years but disappointed for the first time.

Used to be Shimano but now its all SRAM ever since the disaster that were M8 XT brakes. The only thing I miss is the push pull on the shifter that Shimano do. I do wish SRAM would change to mineral oil from DOT as its nasty stuff

Worse still, my M8000 XT rear mech clutch has failed after 3 “easy” summer months. Will see how good they are at giving me a new one through CRC.

Definitely early life failure and you shouldn’t have any problems with the warranty.

For post-warranty reference, Shimano XT and XTR clutches are actually serviceable components – you can remove the clutch mechanism very easily and strip it down, clean and reassemble. The killer seems to be when they get moisture into the one-way needle bearings as this corrodes them and it’ll start to get sticky resulting in a slack chain. Assuming they’re not corroded, reassemble with a light machine oil on the needle rollers and a smear of lithium grease on the clutch surface itself and you’ll be good to go.

Alternatively, the clutch assembly is available as a spare part for £14:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/shimano-xtr-rdm9000-stabilizer-unit-y5pv98040/
(M9000 and M8000 share the same clutch assembly)

GX-11 is a pretty solid groupset. I prefer XT shifters for feel though. Specifically I like that XT shifter give me a shift when I press the lever not when it returns

Are more expensive SRAM shifters better?

There’s only one way to find out

Shimano IMO.

GX changed everything for me. Wouldn’t even consider XT now.

Will go GX Eagle at some point in the future too.

GX changed everything for me. Wouldn’t even consider XT now.

Can you quantify this a bit?

For me the quantification is quality, longevity and functionality. It wins on all 3 hands down. Again as pointed out shimano seem to have given up on 1x completely.

GX changed everything for me.

Can you quantify this a bit?[/quote]

I probably can… for most people Shimano won in the 10 speed department. Price, quality, refinement, longevity. It beat SRAM stuff pretty much hands down in all aspects, so unless it was OE you’re unlikely to have SRAM over shimano in 10spd form.

Along comes 11 spd. Game changer. New freehub, new crazy one piece cassette, massive range (for the time) and all of a sudden your bodged 10 speed with expander feels, well bodged. Add to that the mechs aren’t self destructing, the freehub system is actually better than what it replaces, the shifters feel nice and because theres no front mech, well the ‘quality’ of the front mech and shift is no longer an issue, and all of a sudden SRAM is starting to pull ahead, away even.

However for most people that was a price too high. The massive cassette costs combined with XTR level shifter and mech pricing was keeping 11 speed pretty exclusive.

Along comes GX and all of a sudden 11 spd SRAM becomes affordable, and its that which is the change. Now people 10, 20, 30 years on shimano have been trying SRAM and switching on a permanent basis because its working at a price they can afford, I would say its likely SRAM will start to see the dominance that Shimano once had for a good while come their way. People are pretty habitual so they will stick with the 11/12 spd SRAM stuff unless Shimano gives them a good reason to swing back. Just my tuppence worth mind.

I don`t think shimano has given up on 1 x 11 at all.

Low to mid-end & trekking & pseudo-MTB OE market just too big for Shimano to completely disregard 2x and 3x groupsets in the same way SRAM has. But you can get dedicated single chainset + 11-42 or 11-46 groupsets in both SLX and XT.

Ive always been a shimano fanboy, and still wouldnt use anything else on the roadbike (although the RED eTAP is impressive stuff). But my new mountain bike came with 2 x 10 Sram X7-X9 mix and I must admit it is not too bad at all. I will go 1 x 11 GX, with the MMX clamp taking care of brake, shifter and reverb remote it gives you a clean cockpit

SRAM.

So I can have Rock shox. Fox are too expensive and I don’t like the feel and serviceability. I don’t really like mixing brands for some reason.

They’re also good with warranty and race support.

Shimano have been standing still a bit with innovating (Di2 isn’t needed on an mtb with a 1x.

And only having two clamps on your bars is a bonus

And their brakes aren’t as good. Sure they’re cheap and powerful but I find it impossible to get front and rears to feel consistent. And two pots don’t offer such good modulation. Stoked on my guides still.

I think that saying that Shimano have given up on 1x is a little exaggerated Mike. I think they’ve dropped a bollock with XT M8000 as it brings practically zero innovation and naively relies on a medieval 11t.

I think it’s cultural and down to a certain Japanese engineering arrogance and inertia.

But they’ll bounce back IMO. But for now SRAM is leading, I agree.

Along comes 11 spd. Game changer. New freehub…

Ah yes. That. Just what I want with several sets of decent wheels built around Shimano freehubs.

I think they’ve dropped a bollock with XT M8000 as it brings practically zero innovation…

Isn’t that what trickle-down tech is? M8000 is a cheaper XTR. It doesn’t need to ‘innovate’, it just needs to be nearly as good as XTR.

It doesn’t need to ‘innovate’, it just needs to be nearly as good as XTR.

There be the problem, XTR didn’t really innovate (or if it did was too little too late compared to where the bar went) hence the xt would be a bit lamer. As Ben posted gx did something innovative in terms of bringing what was on the big $ groups to the mass prices very effectively.

As for freehub you don’t need to change them all at once. I’d say xd is here to stay though.

Trickle down is a great marketing tool. But if XTR was that good, then XT group would have 10t, a lighter cassette, a clutch that is reliable, a shifter that was consistent from one item to the other and with a light action and wouldn’t have been launched with VERY unreliable brakes that leak.

For me current XT is a shambles, by Shimano’s standards.

I have been buying their groupset for 25 years and I am disappointed for the first time. Maybe I have been unlucky ?

As Ben posted gx did something innovative in terms of bringing what was on the big $ groups to the mass prices very effectively.

You’ve only got to look at GX Eagle to see that SRAM is trying to steal the march on Shimano by keeping ahead of the curve, by any standard the launch of GXE was early, basically ditching X1 (Kind of like Shimano ditching XT I guess) and going straight to SLX level just a year after launching the flagship (which in itself was somewhere between launching XTR and XT at the same time in many ways). Not only that but SRAM is heavily supporting GXE in the aftermarket with very competitive pricing all things considered.

Its also interesting on that point that SRAM has ditched X1 (effectively) it always sat a little oddly as it was both quite expensive, and not X01. Its actually almost as good as X01 in many ways, but it was always the odd ball. Only when the 1150 cassette appeared for GX did that take off, but it has done spectacularly.

Shimano faces the same dilemma now I think with XT. The new SLX gives up really very little to XT in terms of weight or ride, other than probably the shifter, and the cassette debate is sort of waining with the compatibility with XD cassettes, so where now? Keep rocking the same path or go the SRAM way and streamline with less groups and faster trickle down? I think what I would guess is that the next version of Shimano will release alot quicker than normal, with maybe XT and XTR coming at once, and with probably alot more tech in the game to make that distinction. Should be good!

EDIT: With Deore having gone 10 speed again I reckon its more likely that XTR and XT will get a punchy upgrade next cycle. Kind of a way to seperate out the groupset offerings. While Deore is 10 speed you probably don’t lose much to 11 speed all things considered, its 12spd where it gets interesting.

Can someone explain why the M8000 cranks have a new and different BCD, which doesn’t seem to have the ability to have any smaller chainrings than before?

I could put 30t on my 104BCD chainrings (though not from Shimano), and that seems to be the smallest that will go on these new ones as well.

I think what I would guess is that the next version of Shimano will release alot quicker than normal,

Sometimes it’s hard for big companies that are set in their ways to just completely change how they do things overnight.

Can anyone put forward a sensible argument, that doesn’t involve deliberate incompatibility, for the intentional gap on SRAM cranksets that the driveside insert can work its way out into?

Nope, thought not.

Well interestingly the non threaded versions have a wave spring on the drive side…. why the threaded versions don’t I cannot tell you.

Got both, all is fine. Would have either

The sheer beauty of an XX1 cassette seals the deal for me!

Drivetrain experience only here. I am running two bikes at the moment – one with 2016 XTR with about 1000 miles on it and the other late 2013 XX1 with probably around 8k miles on it.

In terms of use, XX1 shifts quicker, more quietly, with lower force at trigger. It needs less fiddling once adjusted and bedded in. XTR has a more audible and ‘clunky’ feel and takes more force at the shifter to make changes. XTR has also needed more post- bed in adjustment.

In terms of aesthetics XTR looks good but XX1 is prettier and looks less obviously ‘engineered’. Even three years down the line, Shimano still need to catch up on looks.

I have felt nothing but satisfaction for XX1 but XTR has left me underwhelmed… I feel Shimano have either missed the boat or are playing a completely different game.