[Closed] Scots language?

no, you? 😆

[url= http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/ ]check this out: Government subsidized mash-up of English and norn irish farmer slang![/url]

no, you?

Bawbag

It's been recognised by the Scottish Parliament for ages now. I had this argument with a chap who was adamant it was a separate language co-evolve with English from the same Saxon roots. He said he could understand it but not speak it. Well now, I wonder if that's because it's just a dialect of English?

Well now, I wonder if that's because it's just a dialect of English?

I have to say that's the impression I get from some of the examples online, but I wonder if that makes me a massive racist or something? 🙂

Since there are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing languages from dialects, scholars and other interested parties often disagree about the linguistic, historical and social status of Scots.[1] Although a number of paradigms for distinguishing between languages and dialects do exist, these often render contradictory results. Focused broad Scots is at one end of a bipolar linguistic continuum, with Scottish Standard English at the other.[2] Consequently, Scots is often regarded as one of the ancient varieties of English, but with its own distinct dialects.[1] Alternatively Scots is sometimes treated as a distinct Germanic language, in the way Norwegian is closely linked to, yet distinct from, Danish

Also... from baldspots link:

There are no objective criteria to distinguish a language from a dialect. Mario A. Pei, the Italian-American linguist, made this very point in his first book, The Italian Language (1941): ‘There is no essential difference between “language” and “dialect”, a language being a dialect which has met with literary or political favour, while dialect is a language which politically or culturally has not met with the same good fortune’.

Max Weinreich, one of the leading figures in modern Yiddish linguistics, makes essentially the same point: ‘A language is a dialect with an army and navy’.

Norwegian provides an excellent example of this. In the 1840s Norwegian was regarded as a collection of peasant dialects. In 1905 Norway secured its independence from Sweden. What 60 years previously was a collection of peasant dialects suddenly was transformed into a national language.

Political recognition that Ulster-Scots is a language, and not simply a dialect of English, flows from the Belfast Agreement of 1998 and the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

[b]This question really ought to be regarded as completely redundant.[/b]

😀

molgrips - Member
...He said he could understand it but not speak it. Well now, I wonder if that's because it's just a dialect of English?

He can understand it? 🙂

I'm a lowland Scot so speak English but can (more or less) understand "Scots". I'm not convinced it should be classed as a seperate language and do feel that the Scottish Government publishing documents and websites in English and Scots a farcical waste of money as imagine it would be vanishingly rare for anyone to speak/read Scots who couldn't understand the same information in English. I feel the same way about Gaelic however I can see a little more point in artificially trying to preserve that as a language, even though it's never been the language used in my part of the country.

Almost every Scot of my generation was raised on Doric Lite (The Broons & Oor Wullie) 🙂

I think it's really another language because if you speak it to an Englishman he does not understand a word you're saying.

I always thought it would be cool to be bi-lingual, now I find out I am and didnae ken. Gallus.

Given where you're from Rob I'd have expected you to speak Gaelic.

We're heading back up there again for a week next month - can't wait.

I think it's really another language because if you speak it to an Englishman he does not understand a word you're saying.

I reckon I could understand more of it than I could Cumbrian fell dialect, and I was born in Cumbria.

its an interesting case as it would seem to sit right on the border between a language and a dialect. Other examples would be Afrikaans and Dutch perhaps.

There are a lot of words in Scots that don't appear in English Publishing official documents in it is ridiculous however.

A few examples here http://www.scots-online.org/reader/index.htm

back up there again for a week next month

Sorry to hijack, when you up Steve? I'm up myself one weekend in October, unsure which yet. Going to do a little exploratory riding around Kerrysdale if it's not too soft.

Not really "Scots", but an illustration of the dangers of English editors failing to grasp the nuances of accent and dialect (Weegie content...NSFW)

I've got a far better chance of understanding Scots than I have of Italian, say.

Lufe God abufe al and yi nychtbour as yi self

Now is that not just English with a thick Scottish accent?

LOLed at stuartie's link - and I've posted this before but bears a repeat airing;

And, of course,

[url=

in Space[/url]

"Cap'n, thurs a richt big hoor ae a ship cummin awards us..."

I wis gonnae haud ma wheesht but I thocht the point is a'body that can spik scots should be proud. It disnae matter if n its a dialect or a language its still a pairt o everyday life for mony scots and it has a great literature . I am ashamed that while ma faither speaks scots naturally everyday I am another wan o them that understand it but can only spik gey little

Weel the fowk roond here wid gan daft if ye bundled the Doric in wi Scots. It's an education listening to the auld fowk like.

[url=

mince in Moray[/url]

Edit Doh, check the other links!

Language my hairy arse. It's just shagged up English. The Scots took a lovely language called Gaelic and made a stag's arse of it. This is just the same process with English. Jeebus, you can't give them anything to look after. 🙄

dd - yoowa quoite fackin roight guvnah - kick 'em all dahn the apples 'n' pears.

Let's mangle the shit out of a language and then spell it phonetically. Oooh, look, it's like a whole new language. There are parts of the west of Ireland where even I would struggle to understand the natives. They're still speaking English. Try understanding some of the travelling community. Still English they're speaking though.

travelling community

How PC.... 😕

It's not PC to me. We've been calling them that since I was a kid...long before I ever heard the term PC. Or itinerants. What's PC about it?

Darcy - Scots has its roots a thousands ago

doric is the variant from the north east. lallans from the south.

Modern English and scots have some common roots but Scots is not derived from modern english. They also have roots that they do not share.

I actually agree that a dialect is not suddenly a new language - it is all just evolved English language. Are you one of those creationist types dd?

Get the **** outta here TeeJ. That's a load of subsidy grabbing gash and you know it 🙂

[i]It's not PC to me. We've been calling them that since I was a kid...long before I ever heard the term PC. Or itinerants. What's PC about it? [/i]

I would (and a lot of people) would refer to those induviduals as gippos (at best)...

Creationist? Moi? Mais non!

I do think the Big Bang Theory is a load of bollocks though.

Yeah, my mum and dad and their parents used to call them that. Suppose it was just their generation. I think a lot of their language would be termed as non-PC....although I never heard the pejorative "gippo" till I emigrated. Sometimes, they were called tinkers. Though this gained negative connotations too. Anyway, back to people trying to convince us that phonetically spelled English-with-a-scottish-accent is actually a language.

Doric?

Isn't that an architectural term FFS?!

nw alps - but they are not - the travelers of Ireland are not gypsies

Darcy - what did burns write in then - are you saying that is english?

sonsie? Dreich? Haar? Miether - English words?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lallans

**** knows what Burns wrote in. He was pished most of the time wasn't he? And he was a shit poet anyway, who couldn't spell the words he was mangling, so he just spelled them as they sounded. I think my 5 year old nephew has come up with a new language. Weird it is. Some words look English but I dunno, I think he's onto something. 🙂

my mum and dad and their parents used to call them that.

And I bet they called black people "darkies".

TBH, although I'm sure NW Alps thinks he's being [i]terrible[/i] unPC, I don't think gypo is that unacceptable. Many years I used to work with an old guy who was proper a Roma type - his parents had lived in a horse-drawn caravan, and he used the term. In fact a picked up quite a few terms off him which I still use to this day eg. "office wallah"

dd= troll / twit. I will not grace your name with capital letters. Oh, that's OK, neither do you 🙂

I don't have capitals either but I'm not a [s]****[/s] twit.

DeVs sorry yep your right mixed up doric and lallans as i said I cant speak (or write) much lallans and next to no doric

user removed do you intend to propel me through an orchard with your foot? if so come ahead then big man Not everything is evolved from english 😛

DD youre a bit of a language mangler yourself 🙂 but I am with you on the travelling people

And I bet they called black people "darkies".

Not sure what my dad used to call black people. But for sure, I heard my mum use the term in less enlightened times. Thankfully, it was something she gave up when her "terribly PC" son told her it had to stop. Mind you, I heard worse from her mates. "gypo/gippo" doesn't sit comfortably with me so I don't use it. As TeeJ pointed out, I'm not sure Irish travellers are true gypsies anyway. Our treatment of our one ethnic community was pretty shite tbh. It's no wonder that my parents' generation used terms we wouldn't find acceptable these days.

user-removed: nom nom nom nom...hear that? Yeah? It's the sound of you biting. Lighten up will you and stop being so personal FFS.

gordi - trying to work out what I've said to evoke that response (I'm from Aberdeen and am not a big man).

dd - fair comment but stop getting personal [s]twit[/s]

I am seriously worried though. I have to spend from Wednesday evening till Sunday in Scotland. Nobody told me I was going to need a phrasebook. Has the Department for Development of the Scots (accented English) Language produced a dictionary? Is it in google translations? Babelfish?

Haud yer whisht
Awa an bile yer heid

(well thats an assimilated scots ( nglishmans 🙂 ) attempt at a bit of lallans

DD - there is a translator here under scots online dictionary
http://www.scots-online.org/

Found the following 'translations' for fool:
"bawheid, bletherskite, cuif, daftie, fuil, gaupus, gawk, glaik, gomerel, gowk, gumf, gype, ouf

I love the way it comes up as "javascript : openwindae()

DD - there is a translator here under scots online dictionary

That's a massive relief TeeJ. Thanks for that

Sorry to hijack, when you up Steve? I'm up myself one weekend in October, unsure which yet. Going to do a little exploratory riding around Kerrysdale if it's not too soft.

We're up the week of the 18th. Not sure which bike I'm taking yet - might just take the roadrat and do some cycling on the roads out to Melvaig, Red-Point and along the side of Loch Ewe. SWMBO and my son are coming, as well as one of my sons friends so not sure how much option there will be for proper off-roading. Last time we used some of the tracks inland from Poolewe.

If I do get time for a bit of MTBing by myself where would you recommend?

As a linguist once said - "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy" - and the Scots have neither.

user removed ah am feeling glaikit

As a linguist once said - "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy" - and the Scots have neither.

That linguist was a choob! Gaelic is a language as is Welsh. Besides, countries only get themselves an army when they can't sort things out themselves with some shootin, sweerin, fechtin an a wee Glesgae kiss for good measure.

Nobody told me I was going to need a phrasebook.

Its available in all good tea towel shops
[img] [/img]

During my time working in Scandinavia, I noticed that a lot of words in their language are similar to old Scots words and phrases but different from the proper English eg Doo - pidgeon, Barn - Bairn etc there's quite a lot. I always put it down to the sea trading and Viking influence.
Of course, I could just be talking sh*te

Loads of Swedish words are like English words but obscurely related. For instance, fire = brand. Think brand as in cattle, or a flaming branch used as a torch etc. Lots more examples but I forget.

It's Viking influence but also remember that Vikings and Danes are similar, and whilst they were spreading into the British Isles they were also spreading around Scandinavia and Northern Germany to later come to the UK - so some stuff came here second hand via Sweden, Denmark and Germany etc.

Scots is a resilient language which endures in the way people speak and write, all over Scotland, to this day. it has avoided being subsumed completely by a culturally more powerful neighbour. It co-exists with English. Its rhythms and pronunciations are more akin to the northern European languages of Germany and Scandinavia than standard English-English. It doesn't need any official recognition and it doesn't need to be placed on life-support by the state in the way that Gaelic (and possibly Welsh?) have been because the number of speakers of it hasn't fallen below critical mass. There are different words for common, everyday things, in constant use.

It's probably as distinct from English as Gallego or Catalan are from Castillian Spanish - it just doesn't have the road signs and letterheads to prove it.

I feel the same way about Gaelic ... even though it's never been the language used in my part of the country.

Er - I suspect that it was before our Anglo-Saxon friends arrived on these shores!

Loads of examples of Scandinavian languages having words similar to English, and also I half remember something about a counting system used by Lake District shepherds which is based on 20's, same as Danish numbers.

Just watched those youtube links - pretty funny. 😆

Still not convinced it's a real language though. 😀

DrJ - 'yan tan tethera' etc

Loads of the names of places in the Lakes have norse routes - stuff like mere, gyll, fell etc

<i>Not really "Scots", but an illustration of the dangers of English editors failing to grasp the nuances of accent and dialect (Weegie content...NSFW)</i>

I wondered whether I'd heard that right when it was on air. I had.

Andy

http://www.scotslanguage.com/

There are different words for common, everyday things, in constant use.

That's nothing special tho. Same in Yorkshire, the West Country, and pretty much everywhere else. Especially before say the 50s.

My Dad tells an anecdote about his first day at a colliery in Yorkshire. "A tha lakin bladders?" he was asked one lunch break.

DrJ - 'yan tan tethera' etc

Ade Edmonson and the Bad Shepherd's album name. They are awesome by the way. Go see them if you like punk done in a folk stylee.