Scotland Indyref 2

tjagain
Full Member
What is british culture then please?

Whatever the output of scottish, english and welsh culture is.

Britain as a geographical entity is a thing. 😆

The franchise for the referendum will be the same as before. Thise who have made it their home.

Including non natives as we dont make that distinction. Everyone who has made it their home is one of the people of Scotland

Inclusivity remember

Unlike the eu referendum which exluded those who live here but dont hold uk passports and included uk passport holders outside of the uk

Sorry – I’m just dropping pebbles into the pond! 😀

Scotland can do what it wants – I have no real view either way. As a midlander I imagine it would have zero impact on my life if the union broke up. But for Scots in Scotland I can see the importance.

The Scots I know who live in England seem mainly for the union though. So perhaps the SNP need to change the voting rules as mentioned above to get the result they want.

I would miss the blue in union flag! 🤣

If they live in england they dont get to vote.

This is about the people of Scotland. Not blood and soil nationalism

Eu citizens in Scotland got to vote last time and thir votes perhaps turned yes to no but its irrelevant as they had that vote by right as people who made it their home and they will have the vote next time as well

@IRCI’ve read Alf Bairds book and mostly agree with him. Where I differ is on franchise like I said people who live here get to vote no matter where they were born. Yes it makes it more difficult for the pro indy side to win.
Is it irritating yes hugely but that’s just another hurdle we have to overcome.

I have to wonder.
If the Scots get independence , they will only have one political party the SNP.
Will queen Nicola be setting up new parties to challenge her leadership?

If the project financially fails will we in GB get a vote to allow the failed project back into Great Britain or will Scotland just be desolved and become part of England?

If the Scots get independence , they will only have one political party the SNP.

Why would the other parties suddenly cease to exist?

And why would the SNP continue to exist as the largest?

I have to wonder.
If the Scots get independence , they will only have one political party the SNP.
Will queen Nicola be setting up new parties to challenge her leadership?

If the project financially fails will we in GB get a vote to allow the failed project back into Great Britain or will Scotland just be desolved and become part of England?

I have to wonder.

Are you just trolling or are you really that stupid?

I expect over time a complete political realignment in Scotland. The glue that holds the snp together will have gone.

I expect a small hard left grouping. A large centre left group. A centerist group. A centre right group a tiny hard right group and the greens

Gordhimor

I expect the non uk citizens to vote yes this time to return to the EU. Last time they voted no scared of losing EU membership

To make a gross generalisation

Tj I hope you’re right
High Peak Rider I’m sure there will be a few tough years but eventually the UK project might be able to rejoin Scotland we would have to vote on it though and then there would be a few years to realign your standards and currency with ours.

@scotroutes People keep saying you don’t want to be governed by Westminster, So is the plan to have a Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative party, have they confirmed they will stay in place, or will you have new parties? Who knows if a rejoin GB party will be formed.

I guess as this is the second vote its been communicated to Scotts exactly how the country will be run. I’m just asking that question.

Where are the figures that show Scotland can be financially independent?
Rumour in the UK is the Bank Of Scotland and many firms would move to England.
I’m just asking if you’ve been provided with details we don’t know about in GB for you guys to make an informed decision.

I don’t see that as trolling its asking for the detail you’ve been provided with.
Government , currency, lawmaking , NHS, Pensions etc etc, all required to run independent Scotland.

@gordimhor Would that include Wales if we join you?
We would have to have a vote to choose a new one big country name though.

Highpeakrider. Its up to the people what political parties they form. Democracy you see. A strange concept i know.

As above i expect a realignment over time and the snp to split or even disappear.

Plenty of info given on finances on this thread as well

Law. We have our own already

Nhs ditto

Currency a decision to be made by the first post independence government. The snp will make proposals but thats all they are. Proposals

There is loads of onfo out there and i expect firm propsals from the snp. No one else will put any forward as all the other parties other than the greens are sticking their fingers in their ears and going lalalala

@HighPeakRider nothing to stop Wales becoming independent either . Don’t wait for us.

Currency a decision to be made by the first post independence government.

So in other words, independence means independence?

Trollololodingdong

Supreme court has agreed to hear the argument that the scots government can hold a referendum without Westminster permission

First hurdle crossed

Seems unlikely they will say yes to a ref

As i understand it rules are pretty clear that westminster has supremacy on this?

(I see it more as a way to increase indy support than directly get a ref called)

Good news. Another step closer.

tbf we’re miles away from independence.

This decision will go against Scotland, no doubt about that. The SNP will then run on a referendum ticket for the GE, citing democratic deficiency, which will play well at home. Which will potentially shift the polls.

As the polls rise it becomes more and more difficult for the British government to deny a second ref. i still think they’ll hold out for years tbh, unless there is an alignment under westminster where labour needs support from the SNP.

Meanwhile, you’ve go the yahoos thinking Sturgeon is planning on declaring UDI. 😆

It’s a long long game this, imo.

As i understand it rules are pretty clear that westminster has supremacy on this?

This government play fast and loose with ‘the rules’ – perhaps the Supreme Court should look more favourably on the SNP’s request.
It does seem somewhat unjust that Scotland cannot make the decision independently. That said, I wouldn’t want yearly referenda until the result became yes.
There must be a way to change the rules, so that Scotland can independently take a referendum say every 20 years, if it so wished.

In Northern Ireland the GFA allows for a referendum every seven years.

Yeah, somewhat at the behest of the secretary of state though, but really that’s just a procedural matter once the numbers change.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034123/The_Belfast_Agreement_An_Agreement_Reached_at_the_Multi-Party_Talks_on_Northern_Ireland.pdf

Constitutional issues, 1, annex A and and schedule 1 are the relevant bits to read if anyone is interested.

As i understand it rules are pretty clear that Westminster has supremacy on this?

Its not quite as clear-cut as that. The referendum bill (as per the last one) is drafted as a consultative referendum. Given that regardless of the outcome of the poll the legislation doesn’t change it is not clear that a s30 notice is required. It would not be impossible (legally/constitutionally) for a poll to get the go-ahead, a majority vote in favour and Westminster to shrug and say “we note your wishes, but its a reserved matter so tough”.

That said, I wouldn’t want yearly referenda until the result became yes.

Presumably, any party who tried the patience of the electorate by having referenda more frequently than the people wanted would find their political success waning and other parties gaining momentum and thus able to block it at Holyrood. Its a risk the SNP are playing with – if the Court says on you go, and they don’t get >50% they will face a real struggle to justify another in the next parliament – so what then does the SNP represent? Worse, if they only got <45% they will implode. If I was the new PM I might say “OK, you can have a referendum”. I don’t understand what they have to lose (a Yes vote will get rid of 50 odd pesky opposition seats, and I doubt their key “swing” voters “get Brexit done” types care; a No vote lets them say – “see I told you so, now get on with running scotland” and probably helps their cause in the next election saying “Scot Gov just pissing money up the wall on referenda and will do it again”.)

If the project financially fails will we in GB get a vote to allow the failed project back into Great Britain or will Scotland just be desolved and become part of England?

Same thing as when any other country needs money, they go to the markets, if the markets are unaffordable you end up at the IMF, who’ll bail you out but impose conditions on spending, and if you don’t like that, you sell your natural resources/soul to China.

But post referendum it would be neither the UK’s circus, not it’s monkeys.

But I doubt that would happen, they’d just need to make the political decision whether they were green and re-assess public spending to make it affordable, or going to subsist on north sea oil for a bit longer. Either is manageable. My only grievance is Scottish politicians always seem to want to have their cake and eat it. Lot’s of manifesto commitments and bluster about being green, until it comes to the money then it’s oil, oil, oil.

I’d have more respect for them if they either committed to leaving oil in the ground or came out and said their spending would be funded by oil exports.

Westminster had argued the court could not hear the case so its a definite first step and first defeat for Westminster

I think it would be a good move if the SNP changes leader before the start of any vote. The tabloids and their gammon’s are too fixated  on Nicola Sturgeon and spout hate and derision towards her daily. That means they’ve plenty of previous material to rehash and a change of leadership could put a spanner in the works of the campaign of personal attacks they will embark on if a date becomes clear.

This decision will go against Scotland, no doubt about that.

No, the decision will not go against Scotland. Or indeed for Scotland. The decision will go either for or against the part of Scotland which wants to leave, and vice versa.

Remember that the vast majority of elections and opinion polls over the last umpteen years have shown the majority of us up here do not want a second referendum. Okay, at the moment it’s a roughly 50/50 split, but for the SNP to claim we are all being denied our democratic rights is not true.

Personally speaking, I would be in favour of a second referendum if it would settle things once and for all (or at least a generation as they promised last time). However I suspect we would just have Indyref3, Indyref4 etc forced upon us every couple of years until we vote the so-called “correct” way.

Okay, at the moment it’s a roughly 50/50 split, but for the SNP to claim we are being denied our democratic rights is nonsense.

The SNP and the Greens who form a majority government and were both voted in with a referendum in their manifestos. If both parties in a majority government are denied the opportunity to implement their manifestos, surely that is undemocratic?

The SNP and the Greens who form a majority government and were both voted in with a referendum in their manifestos. If both parties in a majority government are denied the opportunity to implement their manifestos, surely that is undemocratic?

A fair comment (and remember I said I wasn’t necessarily against a second referendum), however they were elected through the first past the post system which has a huge number of flaws. And yes, Westminster elections are just as bad, before anyone else points that out.

The point I was trying to make was that only (roughly) half of Scottish people want a second referendum, therefore that comment about the vote going against Scotland was very much not true.

If I lived in Scotland and had Truss forced on me, I’d be down at the border with a shovel helping dig the trench

kennyp
Free Member
This decision will go against Scotland, no doubt about that.

No, the decision will not go against Scotland. Or indeed for Scotland. The decision will go either for or against the part of Scotland which wants to leave, and vice versa.

It’s a question of Scotland’s right to choose. So yes it will go against Scotland.

A fair comment (and remember I said I wasn’t necessarily against a second referendum), however they were elected through the first past the post system which has a huge number of flaws. And yes, Westminster elections are just as bad, before anyone else points that out.

AMS not FPTP.

So yes it will go against Scotland.

Scotland didn’t take the case to court so the decision can’t go against Scotland. The case was taken to court by a political party, not a country.

The SNP and Scotland are not the same thing, no matter how much their spin doctors like to conflate the two.

The point I was trying to make was that only (roughly) half of Scottish people want a second referendum, therefore that comment about the vote going against Scotland was very much not true.

Don’t let the truth get in the way of SNP propaganda.