so they can achieve their objectives

…which could be monitored and rewarded with appropriate compensation – right?

…which could be monitored and rewarded with appropriate compensation – right?

I was talking about maintaining their pension and retirement age.

Junkyard…

Of course i’m only thinking about myself as are the teachers . As a modern family we both have to work and so plan our lives around school terms, dubious training days,snow days etc. You will not get much sympathy from any working parents.

I’ll give this to page 4

i am not a teacher [ not working as one is more accurate]
i am a working parent.
i can think of people other than myself you should try this empathy lark. Apparently some clever folk think it is what separates us from other primates and children.
Times are hard for many people but why you want it to be harder for teachers is still not clear to me.

Never said i wanted it harder for teachers, i just said dont expect much sympathy from folks.

Why the cheap insult?

You will not get much sympathy from any working parents.

…..unless you happen to be a teacher AND a parent 😉

tbh I assume you mean the empathy bit – it was said more in sarcasm than scorn. I am happy to apologise for this.

You will not get much sympathy from any working parents.

They do from me.

Yes…and joining a different one. I don’t agree with striking due to it’s effect on others. I’m investigating changing unions at the moment.

I think you might struggle finding a teaching union which doesn’t recognise the need for industrial action when confronted by an intransigent employer.

The Association of Teachers and Lecturers has just had its first national strike ballot in 127 years.

Good luck.

.

voted in a Tory government

We do not have a Tory government, we have a coalition government. The Tories could not form a government. The British people did not elect a Tory government……..there’s a reason for that.

.

and that , of course, is blackmail and totally goes against the freedom of choice which the poster is entitled to in this country, regardless of whther they are a union member or not.

It doesn’t work like that Woody – you obviously don’t fully understand the concept of democracy and majority decision making. Or at least you believe it only works one way – your way.

An individual cannot decide for themselves whether or not they go on strike, for a start a majority has to vote in favour of industrial action before anyone can legally strike. Secondly everyone is morally bound to accept democratically arrived decisions of organisations which they have freely chosen to join.

What you want is the freedom to vote on whether or not there should be industrial action, and then, the freedom to totally ignore the vote if it hasn’t gone the way you wanted it to go. A greater contempt for democracy is hard to imagine.

My daughter is a teacher and her school will be open. Her sons school will be closed. My night shifts will be long ones!!!!
My wife is a civil servant and will have to work till she is 66 and her pension contributions will increase by approx £80/mth to ensure she gets a “golden pension” !!!! She cannot take the day off to look after grandson due to the “rules”.
Her colleagues contributions to their pensions who are on approx £16k will be the ones who suffer most. All of the 20 people who work in my wifes office are people who have jobs after having been in offices (civil service) that no longer exist 💡 Previous strikes did not do them any favours in their previous jobs and therefore the current call to strike will be ignored 🙂

Miners/British Leyland/Rover and numerous other companies have gone to the wall due to strike action. Even locally people I know went on strike at a local factory, year later it closed.

It doesn’t work like that Woody – you obviously don’t fully understand the concept of democracy and majority decision making. Or at least you believe it only works one way – your way.

Not at all Ernie – my moral or ethical compass overrules anything that a union decides, democratically or otherwise, and it if came to it I would have no hesitation in resigning in those circumstances.

What you want is the freedom to vote on whether or not there should be industrial action

Really – thanks for telling me why I joined a union. Totally wrong but thanks for having a guess at it.

Really – thanks for telling me why I joined a union. Totally wrong but thanks for having a guess at it.

Well first of all I wasn’t talking about you personally, remember this was with reference to Clink’s point. I didn’t even know you were in a union. Still, if you prefer you might find this version with more words better

“What you want is people to have the freedom to vote on whether or not there should be industrial action, and then, for them to have the freedom to totally ignore the vote if it hasn’t gone the way you wanted it to go. A greater contempt for democracy is hard to imagine. “

I think that’s a fair comment and I’m sticking by it – you can’t honestly expect me to believe that you don’t think there should be a ballot before industrial action is taken. And you can’t honestly expect me to believe that you would be happy if the ballot went against strike action, but that the result was ignored and the strike went ahead anyway.

As I said, you obviously only support democracy if the result the goes the way you want it to go. If it does, you think it should be implemented, otherwise, you think it should be ignored. So yeah, complete contempt for democracy – you even admit it with your comment about overriding democratically arrived decisions. BTW, thanks for giving me the opportunity to repeat the observation, since we’re apparently in the business of thanking each other.

BTW, thanks for giving me the opportunity to repeat the observation

No problem Ernie, why deny a man one of his little pleasures.

I’m going to work now before you put any more words in my mouth. Have a nice day comrade 🙂

Ernie not eveyone will strike for various reasons and it’s their right. Woody won’t as he provides an essential service which he feels he can not take away from the public. I’ve said the same if a general strike is called for I won’t strike, I would however work to rule. It’s has nothing to do with them not voting for what I wanted it’s the fact I would never will wilfully withdraw the service I provide.

Bit like Drac though my service, community nursing, is not usually as urgent as his.

However, I work in a community team under social services management, and would not cross a picket line of my fellow team members. I would, however, work from elsewhere so long as my employer provides the option or from my car for the day, but only for the good of my patients NOT the service – anything not urgent would have to wait.

Its a difficult one because I feel everyone has the right to strike for their rights and, tbh, every benefit we now have such as paid sick leave and holidays has been hard fought for and won by collective bargaining.

I do fear that an end to unions would see employers slowly eroding workers rights over decades, likely necessitating the re-emergence of unions. We see the seeds of change every day in the private sector and soon the public sector will be hit in the same way.

As me and my wife are both nurses we are getting a double whammy effect on our finances with pay freezes and increased contributions on the cards.

Interestingly I saw that wages are growing at a 2% average at the moment, if public sector are frozen then the private sector must be getting well in excess of 2% to make the average – not quite all in it together from my perspective.

It’s has nothing to do with them not voting for what I wanted it’s the fact I would never will wilfully withdraw the service I provide.

It has everything to do with ‘them not voting for what you wanted’…..presumably you would go along with the result of a ballot if it voted against strike action. “I will respect the result of the ballot if it goes the way I want it to go, but I will ignore it and encourage others to do so, if it goes the way I don’t want it to go”.

Woody won’t as he provides an essential service which he feels he can not take away from the public.

But we weren’t talking about the “essential service” that Woody provides, we were talking about Clink’s comment.

btw, what essential service does Woody provide that he can’t take a day’s industrial action ?

If pay is increasing by 2% yes, it must be largely the private sector -my Wife in the public sector has had her last pay rise with nothing more to come, which i presume are worked out in advance. Lets not forget however, the recession first hit the private sector in 2008, so many pay rises were stopped over night with job losses, while the public sector continued to get pay rises.

No Ernie I will let my staff and colleagues make up their own minds on what they do I will not influence them either way. Of course if they voted against I’d not strike, what an utter ridiculous comment.

Woody is a Rapid Response Paramedic.

Scamper we had our pay freezes and job losses from 2008 too. We know it’s not exclusive to the public sector.

Of course if they voted against I’d not strike, what an utter ridiculous comment.

Of course it’s an utterly ridiculous suggestion, that’s why I took it as a given. And I’ve also taken as a given that if you were in a union in which the majority voted for strike action, you would ignore the vote (well actually I was initially referring to Clink’s comment, but I’m happy to include you too)

That is very clearly not how democracy works.

Well that’s fine if you think there should be no democracy within a trade union, or at least only democracy when it works in your favour. But don’t come out with some crap about “blackmail and totally goes against the freedom of choice which the poster is entitled to in this country, regardless of whether they are a union member or not”.

Whether they are a union member or not is highly significant. And I would want any union member who doesn’t comply with democratic decisions and remains in the union to be disciplined. It has nothing to do with “blackmail” and they have freedom of choice whether or not they are in a union. Which is more than you get with some professional organisations.

Blackmail where did I mention that?

Of course it’s freedom if choice, forced to strike is wrong and I’m well aware a union could chose to expel me on such a thing. As I say I could not withdraw the service I provide it’s essential service. You can babble on all you want about democracies it’s still down to individuals.

well apparently my school is open next thursday to years 10 and 12 so there goes my lie in 😥

😥 😥 😥 😥

Haha snap our kids’ school is open too.

Blackmail where did I mention that?

Well this is what happens when you butt in. You were commenting on my response which I made to someone, which was in response to what they said, concerning my response to someone else.

None of which is helped by the fact that I don’t use fancy posh terms. So I come out with stuff like “But don’t come out with some crap about….” instead of saying “But one must not come out with some crap about….” which leads you to think that it is aimed at you personally.

I hope that makes things clearer. If it doesn’t, let me know won’t you ?

Not sure how it’s going to work to be honest.

NASUWT members should report for work as normal, having advised the headteacher/principal in advance that they will not accept any variation to their contracted duties and/or undertake the timetabled or other responsibilities of those engaged in action.

Well this is what happens when you butt in. You were commenting on my response which I made to someone, which was in response to what they said, concerning my response to someone else.

Ah right sorry but that’s where quotes come in handy. Oh and sorry for interrupting your thread. 😛

No no, no need to apologise, I’m perfectly happy for you to interrupt my thread. I was just pointing out where the confusion lay.

😆

Back home now, hope everyone had a nice day 😉

Yup and that one day will make a massive difference.

Shit, I bit

Which a lot of them don’t realise. The 10 teachers at school in NUT who are on strike next week didn’t know this. They were yabbering on about the strike when we pointed this out to them.
A couple of UNISON members went on strike a few years back, and they now have on their annual pension statement a note about it not being complete because of those days.

You can babble on all you want about democracies it’s still down to individuals.

In the context of talking about unions and participation in strike action, is this not to completely miss the point – it’s called Collective bargaining for this very point. There may of course be times when a person within a union feels that their own ethical priorities are in tension with the decisions of the collective democratic process, but if you sign up to a union, you’re implicitly repudiating a libertarian view of individual rights..

We were messing around with a pension calculator yesterday and a 29 yr old women who had worked 8 yrs would end up paying £70 pounds per month extra, have to work to 68 and receive £180K less in pension over a 20 year period after retirement.

How many people would be happy to accept that without a fight?

+1 ianv

Pensions are deferred pay, thus any increase in employee contributions, any reduction of employer contributions, any decrease in benefits at retirement = a pay cut.

I’ll be £77 a month worst off under the new plans whle my employer pays less, and I get less when I retire.

civil servant 325 years in £60 per month worse off has to work longer and gets a 40% per annum pension reduction – would you accept this. Mos I know would prefer a wage reduction tbh. If it was increase fees for sam epension they would probably take that as well
lets not forget the the current crop of retirees having paid too little to get their current pension deal so why are we not going after them rather than us?

Whats totally pissing me off is that a school can’t employ a replacement. If you want to stike go for it but its aginst all “laws” of morality that you can’t be substituted.
Oh yeah and my ATl membership is going back. Like many I joined as they generally didn’t strike. Why join? For legal back up when some little shit says you belted him when he didn’t like being told to stop talking. Its digusting that people can do this. I applaud those still at work.

its disgusting that people are able to decide to withold their labour? sorry I will never understand this viewpoint.

Oh yeah and my ATl membership is going back. Like many I joined as they generally didn’t strike.

I’m sure you are absolutely right – many joined the ATL precisely because it had never had a national strike ballot in its entire history.

Which begs the question, why did 83% of ATL members vote to back strike action ? Clearly to get that sort of result from a union whose members are historically opposed to strike action, suggests that something fundamental has happened within the teaching profession.

I hope you teach with slightly less hyperbole but just as much zeal.
now roll over and let Dave tickle your belly whilst he shafts you.
I have some terrible news for you as well striking is a human right since about 1948 and 1966 by the UN] and The UK keeps getting told off for how much we have restricted this right.
What worse is that Striking on behalf of other unions /worker [secondary action /flying pickets]is also recognised.
you should rejoice you live in such a restricted country and consider why your view is out of kilter with the International community.

Schools in Wales are now going on strike because teachers are getting made redundant at the schools, and one in Liverpool is on strike because the teachers who just work there,dontwant it to become an accademy the children the parents and all the governors want it to become an academy away from la control.