he problem is the russian people are imposing their morality on other people

But they aren’t. They are only applying their views to their own country and asking visitors to respect their views and their laws.
By applying this view they impose it on people, be they visitors or citizens. just as you accused those of us who object to their law as imposing our view. The point is your imposing argument works both ways though you are denying the country with a law preventing folk doing something is imposing anything and those of us with no power who are tutting are trying to impose something

as others note it is hard to defend bigotry as their choice -somethings are just wrong
What if they want to put them all in jail and then kill them ?
Just because the majority wish to do something in one country it does not automatically make it just

To be clear, crankboy, that is NOT what I was saying. I am against imposing our views on others as a rule (debates on STW notwithstanding!!!!!) My post that you refer to was laced with (not-so hidden) irony. Or at least that is what I thought and intended! I should have added a smiley.

As DD, pointed out, the (ironical) argument is pretty creepy isn’t it? In the old days, we went round the world imposing our religious views on others. Now we want to do the same with our views on sexuality. Both make me feel uncomfortable.

Admittedly, it is also uncomfortable to take a non-interventionist stand at times eg Syria, abuse of human rights. But equally, we are biased by our own culture/upbringing/accepted norms and were are not necessarily right. Nor do we have an a priori right to impose our beliefs on the majority of others in other countries IMO. So I was opposed to intervention in Syria and am opposed to imposing my views of sexuality on the Russians, who if polls are to be believed, think very differently to me.

Why are you making such a fuss?’

You know what, I’m not. My original contribution to this thread was meant to be along the lines of “this is a total non story”. However I found my drawn into the debate and began to quite enjoy the argument about moral and cultural relativism. Then I got to wondering about why people felt so strongly about this issue and not about others, particularly when the others, to me at least, seemed to involve far greater abuses of human rights. That in turn got me wondering about the way celebrity culture drives the views of many people on what the feel they should currently be getting offended about.

The fact this is about gay rights is, to me, largely irrelevant. The moral relativism debate could have been about any number of subjects. I also quite often enjoy arguing a subject from a point of view that generally seems to go against the majority view.

I’ve been quite impressed with some of the points folk have put forward, leaving aside the usual idiots on either side who just resort to abuse. Some of the things people have said haven’t made me change my mind, but have made me see things from the other point of view a bit more.

Here’s a question for those of you with strong feelings on this subject. Have you actually made your feelings known to the Russian authorities. Written letters stating why you think their views ate wrong? Made your feelings known to them in some other way? I suspect few folk in the Kremlin read STW.

“this is a total non story”.

It certainly isn’t the story you expect it to be from the headline.

For people, spectators. athletes, and anyone else with a chip on thir shoulder about discrimination,perhaps dont watch, attend, or participate in the winter games.

and make sure you tell everyone why youre not watching/participitating or visiting anythingto do with games.

Now who has their hand up in the air to agree, very few of you i bet.

For people, spectators. athletes, and anyone else with a chip on thir shoulder concerned about human rights,perhaps dont watch, attend, or participate in the winter games.

That’s better.

Moral relativism is bunk.

The reason I’m proud to be British is our tolerance and lack of prejudice.
We understand that a society where discrimination is actively discouraged is a more progressive and happier one.

I think we we should support all our athletes at the games, whilst making known our feelings regarding the backward, ignorant ideas enshrined by Putin’s mealy mouthed announcement.

And let’s not forget, not that long ago that we had a government capable of this:
Section 28 anyone?

with a chip on thir shoulder about discrimination

What does this even mean? What a weird slur
We should just not GAS about discrimination and to care makes us the bad ones 😕

So I was opposed to intervention in Syria and am opposed to imposing my views of sexuality on the Russians

It is indeed difficult to know where to draw the line
I am not sure, I am not sure if this is your complete view either to be clear, that ignoring all world affairs is that wise either

There is a balance point/happy medium between victorian imperial imposition and total isolation/non involvement

It really depends on the issue

One of the strong points of Universal Human Rights ?

tolerance and lack of prejudice

Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it……

……and here it comes.

backward, ignorant ideas

And there you have it……we will tolerate anyone unless they hold differing opinions to ours. How dare they.

Kennyup are you seriously saying it is not backward and ignorant to persecute people for their sexuality? You are happy to condone a society where gangs who lure young men into traps then torture them to death are praised by the authorities. This is not an intellectual thought experiment about moral relativism and the power of celebrity culture. Nor about the right of the majority to tyrannize the minority. It is whether there is a moral imperative to oppose evil when you see it or whether you just walk on by.

The thing is though, I’ve never condoned it. Read my posts and you’ll see that I’ve said several times that I don’t agree with the Russian take on homosexuality. As for the gang thing you mention, I think it’s horrendous and am more than happy to condemn that.

What I am getting at though is the fact that a large percentage (meaning millions and millions of people) of the Russian population believe homosexuality to be immoral. While I don’t think they are correct, equally I also respect their viewpoint. I think we are on dangerous grounds when one society tries to impose its moral values on another.

Obviously moral relativism has certain limitations and that is where it gets tricky. Absolute moral relativism would have seen us stand by 70 years ago and let the Nazis do what they wanted to the Jews. Hopefully no one thinks we were wrong to intervene there.

You say there is a moral imperative to oppose evil. Fair enough. However no one has answered my question above ie what have you actually done to make your feelings known to the Russians? Maybe you have in some way and if so I apologise.

Although I believe in moral relativism I’d also love to see more people actively standing up for their beliefs, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. If you were to let the Russians know that you think their laws are wrong then I would applaud you for taking positive actions. Equally though if someone from Russia was to come back and say that it is a very strongly held moral belief in their society that certain actions are wrong then I would respect that view, while not agreeing with it.

I think we are on dangerous grounds when one society tries to impose its moral values on another.

I agree, but if that society expresses their moral values through the persecution (of whatever kind) of a group of people I think others have a moral obligation to express their disapproval of that.

Obviously moral relativism has certain limitations

My moral relativism looks a bit like this: think, do and say whatever you want right up to the point that it starts to hurt someone else.

Absolute moral relativism would have seen us stand by 70 years ago and let the Nazis do what they wanted to the Jews. Hopefully no one thinks we were wrong to intervene there.

We (the Allies) intervened there?

Simplistic example on my part. I know the causes of the war were much more complicated than that, but at the end of the day we stopped genocide.

Well personally I have argued the point at every opportunity. You have to be a particular sort of stupid to think that a man who headed one of the most effective security services in the world does not read Stw. World opinion will be a factor monitered by Putin and will directly effect his decisions though in which direction they would move is a moot point. I have also put my name to a number of petitions calling for the boycott. . Made it clear to the one Russian I know that homophobia is wrong and far from acceptable. I have circulated a number of nice pics of Putin looking like a big gay bear. And sent messages to sponsors linking them to the antiadds to show them how they are perceived. So in the grand scheme of things the square root of fxxk all. I should real sign up for teamhurtnomore’s crusade but a boycott of the games and the sponsors is perhaps not only easier but also more effective.

I’m pretty sure the Jewish persecution was not a reason for the start of the allied efforts in the second world war.