You obviously don't want to pay for it.

Actually I wouldn't mind paying 50% tax if I thought that it would be used effectively however I have no confidence in the public sector as it stands making the best use of that revenue.

TandemJeremy – Member

Druidh – how much taxpayers money in your pension pot that you got 15 yrs early fro mt the bank as it was bailed out by the taxpayer?

No tax-payers money in my pension TJ. I saved carefully, making sure I was putting enough into my savings and then transferring it at the right time. Plus of course it was funded by the generous profits which the banks were making (and paying substantial corporation tax on). You should surely be aware that pension funds are not held as part of the Banks accounts and so would not have been affected by any "bale-out"?

Oh – and I might look young for my age, but it was only 10 years early. As a result, it'll be a lot less than it would have been had I carried on working. And why did I have to leave the bank – yep there's no guaranteed jobs there, redundancy is a fact of life. Pay rises? Nope, didn't have those guaranteed either. Every year, it was performance based and there was only sufficient to pay the very top performers. How many public sector agencies have the same policy? You see, I'd like to see the best folk (public and private sectors) get earned increases, but I don't see why everyone should as a matter of course.

Crikey – and this really is a genuine question – how much lower could the likes of your salary go and there still be enough folk to take up your role? i.e. are there actually shortages of people with your skills? I'm thinking that, at some point, salaries would have to increase to attract enough people – or are there already shortages in your area?

ARRRRGGGHHHHH!

Can we stop arguing?

We all want the same things!

We all want good quality public services!

We all want good quality health care!

We would all like to get the country out of recession.

The way we do it is largely immaterial; what is important is that it is done.

What is less important, but not insignificant, is that it is done fairly…

up on the downs – even tho every time the NHS is compared to other countries healthcare systems it is consistently shown to be cheaper and more efficient? The NHS provides more and better quality care per pound than any other system in the world. There is waste in it yes – but its a tiny %.

The USA spends twice as much to provide healthcare for 70% of the population – that is the reality of private healthcare. State monopoly healthcare is cheaper and more efficient.

Private healthcare is more expensive. Proven again and again all over the world

Druidh, (incidentally did you do the Tour of the Pennines with its nightmare wind?) I've worked as a nurse for 20 years and only in the last 3 or 4 years felt as if I have been reasonably paid. The problem is that nursing is becoming a degree entry profession, and you need to offer salaries that are respectable in terms of that.

What you get for that investment is a commitment; many people (not all) go on to work as nurses for their entire career, 20-30-40 years worth of experience, which simply cannot be bought or sold. You also get silly levels of loyalty and dedication, again, without price, really.

The stupid thing is that you don't and never have needed to pay nurses a lot of money; they do it for other reasons. They may deserve more, but they will and have, historically, done it for less.

It's nice to show a bit of appreciation though.

Druidh – sorry mate – bit of a snide dig but really was there no employer contribution to your pot? the banks did not make those huge losses overnight did they – just hid / denied them for years?

I accept I don't really understand that tho for sure.

Druidh – there are massive shortages of skilled and experienced nurses – especially those with specialist skills and this is due to get much worse as the workforce is aging fast and not enough recruits come into the profession. so much so we import thousands of less skill and less trained nurses from other countries to fill the gaps – however there is no free market in nurses salaries as it is a monopoly employer and the salaries are capped by a quango.

The NHS provides more and better quality care per pound than any other system in the world.

My and my family's experiences of the NHS would suggest otherwise but if you are right then the rest of the world is fcuked.

The problem is that nursing is becoming a degree entry profession

Entirely agree that this is a problem as it prevents people with a genuine vocation but who don't have the academic ability to enter the profession. I'd rather be looked after by someone with a genuine care and compassion than someone who couldn't give a toss but could pass exams- and yes I've met both types.

however there is no free market in nurses salaries as it is a monopoly employer and the salaries are capped by a quango.

Err…

😉

I thought his plan was only to freeze the pay of those earning over £18k, not ALL public sector workers?

Maybe, but isn't the Tory policy for all of them to have a freeze?

You see, I'd like to see the best folk (public and private sectors) get earned increases, but I don't see why everyone should as a matter of course.

I agree. I assume that you agree with the other side of the coin; I don't see why everyone in the public sector should have a pay freeze regardless of ability or effort.

crikey – Member

Druidh, (incidentally did you do the Tour of the Pennines with its nightmare wind?)

I did indeed. A real killer on the day with lots of potential accidents. I baled out onto the short course (67km) after being blown clean off the road on one occasion and struggling to maintain a 17kmh average. Nice route though – I'll be back next year.

I've worked as a nurse for 20 years and only in the last 3 or 4 years felt as if I have been reasonably paid. The problem is that nursing is becoming a degree entry profession, and you need to offer salaries that are respectable in terms of that.

What you get for that investment is a commitment; many people (not all) go on to work as nurses for their entire career, 20-30-40 years worth of experience, which simply cannot be bought or sold. You also get silly levels of loyalty and dedication, again, without price, really.

I know a bit about that, my wife is RGN/RMN. 🙂 It's a question I've thought about though – back to how "society" values certain jobs. If there weren't enough folk taking up positions, would the salary increase to meet the demand? I recall there being a situation in Scotland a few years back whereby returning nurses could get their return to practice training paid to encourage them back

I don't see why everyone in the public sector should have a pay freeze regardless of ability or effort.

Absolutely agree but I don't see the under performers or incompetents being sacked either.

RichPenny – Member
> I thought his plan was only to freeze the pay of those earning over
> £18k, not ALL public sector workers?

Maybe, but isn't the Tory policy for all of them to have a freeze?

Nope – only those over £18k. Go to the back of the class….

uponthedowns – Member

>I don't see why everyone in the public sector should have a pay freeze
>regardless of ability or effort.

Absolutely agree but I don't see the under performers or incompetents being sacked either.

Exactly. Why should the good performers suffer to support them?

druidh – there is a shortage of nurses – hence why thousands are brought from abroad every year – and it will get worse as a lot of us are within ten years of retirement and not enough are training to replace those who retire

Well who can seriously make a choice when it comes to choosing Labour or Conservative? Neither party have done anything to stem the social injustice that has been growing for the past 30 odd years. The rich have got considerably richer whilst the majority have seen their wages driven down in real terms. The minimum wage is a completely inadequate income, but a national average of £24908 hardly goes that far either. Meanwhile others earn up to millions of pounds. The situation is offensive!

Pensions; my number one concern at the last election, but now I have given up on them. The state sector get lavish pensions whilst the private sector get conned by private money purchase firms.

I have lost out with Equitable Life on one of my tiny private pensions and am also waiting for the two endowments I have paid into for almost 25 years to mature. Thses will be at well below the value that the puffed up shirts were bandying about when I reluctantly took them out. Do not trust any money men!!

Who says you don't need money to be happy? This thread proves that anyone with such a view is incredibly naive!

Fairness disappeared a long long time ago.

Politicians who mislead us into thinking we would become financially better off, financially secure, have proved themselves to be no better than the bankers. Lock a few of them up!

Spongebob – as a nurse of over 25 yrs experience I get paid around the national average wage maybe a little more and my pension will be around £14 000 pa at current prices – for which I will have paid 7% of my income for 35 yrs by the time I retire – on top of my taxes and NI

Hardly lavish

Meanwhile others earn up to millions of pounds. The situation is offensive!

I've no problem with people earning millions provided they are creating genuine wealth and pay their taxes on it.

The likes of James Dyson earning millions I don't have a problem with (if he's paying his taxes) however on the other side of the coin after Phillip Green bought Arcadia he made the company take out a £1 billion loan then proceeded to pay his wife, who is a foreign national, a £1 billion dividend. The exchequer didn't see any of it- now that is objectionable.

If we put a stop to the likes of what Green did then there would be no need for the likes of TJ to cry for 75% tax on the rich which would be a tax on wealth creation not seen since the days of sunny Jim
Callaghan

Your pension would be a bit more if you worked full time though TJ – instead of just a couple of days a week. Hell – I've retired and I work more hours than you

There are underperformers, and undoubted incompetents, and I would agree wholeheartedly that they persist in the public sector and are harder to get rid of. I would also agree with uponthedowns regarding some of the care in the NHS; i've been looking after someone today whose mother told me a horror story about my own hospital that made me cringe.

I want a decent standard of healthcare for my tax.

I'd like to be decently paid for my work and my experience, I'd like to think that my family will recieve decent health care whenever they need it.

These things are not incompatible with the NHS, bloated it may be, with some inefficiencies, but my original point remains; freezing public sector pay is an ideological attempt to save money, not an equitable one.

I happen to think that we are all in this together, and I think we can get out of it together, but division is not the way forwards..

…and yes, the Tour of the Pennines was grim, but I loved it!

Druidh – those numbers are approximated on what I would be getting assuming I worked full time – I actually earned around £13000 last year and if I carry on like that my pension would be £3000 pa. because only part of my income at the moment is NHS and therefore is pensionable.

I also work more hours than you think – around 25 a week

I work part time partly because I am burned out – physically and psychologically from the stresses of the job. Seriously the work has damaged me

State pension provision is lavish in comparison to the private sector! If you step out of your state sector NHS job and into the private sector, you will want to buy a money purchase pension to provide the same income value as the NHS one you will be getting. You'll need at least 30% pay rise though! This is assuming you have 20 years until you retire to build up your fund and that there aren't any horrific corrections in the money markets close to when you retire. Also, after you have retired, your pension can go down with market performance. State sector pensions are gold plated – index linked and cannot be reduced. The provider is not going to go bust either. Wake up!!

And yes I do have a problem with people earning millions of pounds! Damn these greedy people who push up prices! Nobody needs this much income – period!!

Sorry Spongebob if my irony detectors are off line this evening.

So what's the incentive to have an idea, start a company, employ people and pay taxes? Should we do it out of the goodness of our hearts?

Spongebob, when I started nursing, I was told that the pay was poor, but the pension was probably as good as I could expect.

I'm shocked that I'm now in a position to be having to defend my right to a decent pension.

The public/private pension debate is silly; private pensions have failed, that's where the problem is, and arguing that I should have a poor pension because others have is a strange approach.

Crikey – wanna bless us with a time for that? I struggled round in 3:36:52.

This is me just before the cattle grid "detour"
http://www.flamingphotography.co.uk/photo3676746.html

I have no huge issue with wealth creators taking a chunk of it – although I would like to see them taxed heavily on it. However many of our biggest earners do not create wealth – merely manipulate it or even get rewarded for failure – Fred Goodwin anyone? What wealth did he create to get his many millions?

I actually don't believe that beyond a certain point money motivates the wealth creators / entrepreneurs anyway

Spongebob, when I started nursing, I was told that the pay was poor, but the pension was probably as good as I could expect.

I'm shocked that I'm now in a position to be having to defend my right to a decent pension.

The public/private pension debate is silly; private pensions have failed, that's where the problem is, and arguing that I should have a poor pension because others have is a strange approach.

3.30 odd ish, we had a big stop at the mobile van on Nont Sarahs, then hammered to the finish.

My photo is less than flattering; I was attempting what the journalists would call a wry smile…

http://www.flamingphotography.co.uk/photo3676816.html

SirJonLordofBike1 – Member
Erm ok thanks for that helpful and eloquently put point, you should speak for yourself.
Never mind that the quote may well be pertinent to the matter in discussion, If you cant be bothered to read what you considor to be "lengthy tracts of shite" that's your choice,I'm really not interested, I'm not sure anyone is really, if they were perhaps they could draw pictures or summarise in mono-syllabic words for you. No offence intended.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.

TJ: "up on the downs – flat rate taxation of 25 % would mean massive cuts in public spending. I like the principle of progressive taxation."

Funny – Poland, Slovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Greece didn't have to implement massive tax cuts when they introduced flat rate taxes. Then again, their public sectors are more productive than ours and their Healthcare Systems are typically rated better than ours in International Studies as well.

Strange I've got a private final salary pension appreciating nicely that's partially index linked. Maybe a little less cash in the pay packet and a requirement that ALL companies run final salary schemes. We are too in thrall to big finance, a service industry (provider rather) that is wagging the dog.
I'm trying to start a business and one of my ground rules is that all my turnover will go through the books. A little bit more social conscience from all in the country may well have prevented the current mess.

a requirement that ALL companies run final salary schemes. …
I'm trying to start a business and one of my ground rules is that all my turnover will go through the books.

Well firstly I should hope everything does go through the books 😉

Secondly though, are you saying your start up company is going to offer final salary schemes to your future employees? How will you guarantee to pay out if you company goes bust?

I work for a small company myself, naturally I have a personal pension since there's no guarantee my employer will be around in 5 years, never mind in 30 years' time.

lol,yes you are right the PS is so efficient that they decide to outsource to the private sector, they made a mess of it, case proven the PS is great and the private sector is rubbish. Awesome argument.
We are legally compelled to pay taxes which pays for the PS which employs lots of staff, that's a fact.
The current approach suits you fine that is clear, but the PS is inefficient and needs modernising. Introducing competition for service contracts & reducing the masses of state employees would improve efficiency.

Sorry, I did think you were being serious there.
You know the contract I'm talking about do you? Where the NHS priced the contract at £x million but were not allowed to bid for it, so it in the interests of efficiency and value for money it went to the private sector at 20% more than we priced it at. And they still failed to provide the service so under the terms of the contract, they were dropped with no compensation. How does this amazing private sector of which you talk deal with suppliers who fail to meet their contractural expectations?
And what is this legal requirement to employ public sector staff?

We are legally compelled to pay taxes which pays for the PS which employs lots of s[/b]taff, that's a fact.

We pay taxes so we have to employ public sector staff to use all that money? **** me, that's novel.
Well anyway, let's modernise, shall we, let's get competitive like the banks. Why does this threqad exist? Because the (private sector) banks screwed up so collosally that we are in unimaginable levels of debt. Still, I'm sure St Fred of Goodwin is struggling with his £750,000 a year pension, agreed by his (private sector) former employers. Bet he's the man to fix the public sector.

Funny – Poland, Slovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Greece didn't have to implement massive tax cuts when they introduced flat rate taxes. Then again, their public sectors are more productive than ours and their Healthcare Systems are typically rated better than ours in International Studies as well.

If Poland is such a model country witha thrusting economy why is my local paper written in Polish?

The staff in there look as rough as the patients.

Whilst it might not reflect each and everybodys' experience, Harry_The_Spider's thread exemplifies what I pay my taxes for – as opposed to, say, trough-nosing MPs, busted casinos banks and parastic management consultants. And given the "brightest and best" rhetoric from the salary-addled City over the last decade or so, I understand why senior staff nurses should feel so mightily pissed off.

Chubbybloke: well said. A situation not helped by the heavily greased revolving door between DoH and PFI consortia.