apologies if this has already cropped up in a thread elsewhere

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk4m-8[/video]

Sh1t.

I didnt realise it was quite so BIG!!!

Good call phil – this should be made a sticky for a while

mrlebowski – Member – Quote
Sh1t.

I didnt realise it was quite so BIG!!!Note the angle that the cab is at to the trailer.

This is incredible, in a very bad way!

Edit: But the angle is relatively slight and not unlikely when the driver intends a turn.

Matt

typical preparing to turn left at a junction/roundabout road positioning from the lorry i would’ve thought?

Saw this on Reggit. I was actually shocked when he got out of the cab!

I drove em for twenty years, driving one through London is fookin scary…
I’m surprised there isn’t multiple deaths every day tbh…Cyclists need awareness training as much as hgv drivers IMO…

philconsequence – Member – Quote
typical preparing to turn left at a junction/roundabout road positioning from the lorry i would’ve thought?

Yep. I think that’s what catches folk out.

The thing is Ive a PSV license & Ive driven large agricultural machinery on the road & Im still surprised.

The angle is irrelevant with regard to my surprise, its the fact that you can position yourself where you THINK you can be seen & yet you arent that surprises me..

Unless you can eyeball the driver I reckon its best to assume youve NOT been seen.

Cyclists need awareness training as much as hgv drivers IMO…

^^This^^

Simple rule – Don’t go up the inside unless you are ABSOLUTELY sure it’s safe. In many cases, it is not. Take a moment to wait behind them.

Eyeball contact – always my mantra on my motorbikes, always assume the other guy is a blind moron and you can get through ok.

Left hand drive lorries present a whole new array of adventures, especially at roundabouts – we need to be more aware of how invisible we can be on the roads.

CaptainFlashheart – Member – Quote
Don’t go up the inside unless you are ABSOLUTELY sure it’s safe. In many cases, it is not. Take a moment to wait behind them.

And yet existing cycle lanes take us exactly to the wrong place. That’s why I’d much rather overtake on the outside like “normal” traffic.

Valid point ,Druidh. The lanes get you to the front, but they don’t force you to move on in to the path of a truck/bus/car. Getting to the front is fine, but then position yourself and start your movement safely.

If there’s a cycle lane up the left to an advanced stop zone thingy, there should be a green light for cyclists a few minutes before the rest of the traffic, to allow them to get ahead and out of the way.

What would help would be for a driving test, there should be a bit of cycling/motorbike and bus/lorry (and even horse!) training experience too, for everyone to make them aware of other users.

i know you guys aren’t arguing yet, but this being STW there’s a good chance someone will come along to start something.

can be mods lock it and make this a sticky or something as (especially with the death in london) this video might end up saving somebodies life?

ir_bandito – Member – Quote
If there’s a cycle lane up the left to an advanced stop zone thingy, there should be a green light for cyclists a few minutes before the rest of the traffic, to allow them to get ahead and out of the way.

That. Too easy to be moving to the front when the lights go green and be caught in the wrong place.

Too easy to be moving to the front when the lights go green and be caught in the wrong place.

That’s the logic of my “don’t pass the first vehicle” rule – if the lights go green, the first vehicle moves immediately but you have a delay to get to a safe place before the second vehicle moves.

I then assume form this video, the signs on the back of some lorries/buses that say “if you cant see my mirrors, i can’t see you” isn’t true then – think these should be taken off as it’s giving cyclists a false sense of security!

if you cant see my mirrors, i can’t see you

good point. They should say “if you can’t see THE DRIVER in the mirrors, then they can’t see you”

If you can’t see me in my mirror then I can’t see you

Whilst a lot of cyclists endanger themselves by cycling up the inside of HGVs (and should have training) surely any HGV that is driven through built-up areas should be required to have additional mirrors/cameras to eliminate (or drastically reduce) the blind spots. Unless we find vast reserves of diamonds/gold/oil in the UK no ones ever going to spend the money required to separate cyclists from vehicles so investment needs to be spent on making their co-existence as safe as possible.

Unless you can eyeball the driver I reckon its best to assume youve NOT been seen.

^ Best advice.

I’ve been drumming this into a couple of friends that have taken up cycling recently. One gets it and rides very well from a positional perspective the other still rides like a dick no matter how many times you tell him.

druidh – Member

And yet existing cycle lanes take us exactly to the wrong place. That’s why I’d much rather overtake on the outside like “normal” traffic.

I’m always amazed by the amount of people who ride up filter lanes that go to ASL boxes and choose to just sit in the lane as it means they can put their foot on the kerb rather than the floor further forward. it also means other cyclists cant then get past them to fill the asl box as you’re supposed to.

Kate Cairns, sister of Eilidh [killed by a lorry], set up the See Me Save Me campaign to eliminate the blind spots in lorries.

Kate says: The defence of most drivers involved in the death of vulnerable road users is that they simply didn’t see them. This is not good enough. We have affordable technology such as cameras and sensors which eliminate blind spots. It is installed on new cars to protect bumpers so why do we value the life of a cyclist less than the sheen of a bumper? We need to re-evaluate the focus on victim blaming. More pedestrians are killed by HGVs than cyclists, but the government doesn’t urge pedestrians to wear high vis and helmets. The danger is posed by huge clumsy vehicles driven blind in tiny shared spaces. Focus has to be on the vehicle that poses the greatest risk, the trucks, and the responsibility to manage the risk has to be proportionate.

http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.nl/

http://www.seemesaveme.com/

Pretty pissed off here that even on a cycling website more people see the issue as CYCLISTS UNDERTAKING LORRIES.
In my experience it’s the lorries who overtake at stupid places.

Only last week a lorry overtook me just before a roundabout, as he passed me the road curved to the left and his trailer wheels hit the kerb about 10 feet in front of me. I had to slow down. RATHER THAN HIM WAITING AN EXTRA F^&*ING SECOND BEHIND ME.

I see the scenario in that video as a group of cyclists waiting at a junction when a lorry pulls up next to them with his left indicator on, not cyclists filtering up kerbside of him.

more people see the issue as CYCLISTS UNDERTAKING LORRIES.

Because that’s what the video shows. Lorry stopped at lights. Cyclists move up the inside.

The assumption is made that if the cyclists are there first, the lorry driver would be behind them, not alongside them about to turn left. Aslong as the cyclists have moved into a sensible position at the junction…

Dez I think the point of the thread/video is educating cyclists rather than blaming them.

What was that someone said about arguing? 😉

Because that’s what the video shows. Lorry stopped at lights. Cyclists move up the inside.

Where? I don’t see that bit. Link me to the time on the video where that happens.

**** it I’m out

My own rule on the road is never to go on the inside of any vehicle being driven by someone paid to do it especially when there is a left turn ahead. No buses,lorries,vans or taxis, they’ve all got to be somewhere yesterday and the drivers are always under pressure to achieve that.

Where? I don’t see that bit

If the lorry driver has come alongside all those cyclists at the junction, he’s obviously moved out to give them space, therefore if he has more than a goldfish memory, wil know they’re there, so not seeing them at that point shouldn’t be an issue.

The video implies that the lorry driver does not know they’re there, so must have arrived after him, and snuck up the inside.

therefore if he has more than a goldfish memory, wil know they’re there, so not seeing them at that point shouldn’t be an issue.

massive assumption right there considering how many people have started to overtake me, forgotten I’m there during the overtake and turned left.

Yes educate cyclists about just how scarily big those blind spots are but don’t absolve drivers or haulage companies from taking safety measures with their rather dangerous vehicles that by rights probably shouldn’t be on many of our roads.

but don’t absolve drivers or haulage companies from taking safety measures

I don’t anyone is trying to do that, all this is doing is showing BOTH sides that there is more to it than most people realise.

From the HGV POV the blind spot is massive and although he may be aware of how big it is he may not be aware that the cyclist’s aren’t.
Likewise the cyclists are positioning themselves where they might think they are visible but actually are not.

Cyclists thinking they are performing safe manoeuvres, HGV driver thinking cyclists performing safe manoeuvres with NEITHER actually doing so is a recipe for disaster and BOTH need to be aware of the problems faced on all sides.

You can legislate and add more technology and I’m sure both will do some good, but laws are not always obeyed, and technology does not always work, and reliance on these things breeds contempt and an assumption that your safety is being looked after by *other things*.

It fundamentally comes down to both parties having to use the road safely and with awareness of the dangers and capabilities of other road users. <<– Easier said than done

Personally I think large articulated vehicles should be banned from city centres for the safety of motorists, cyclists and pedestrians, but this is not practical in a lot of places, and that would still leave you with buses, and non-articulated lorries etc. so the more awareness from everyone the better.

Good video – Should be shown in schools.

druidh – Member
CaptainFlashheart – Member – Quote
Don’t go up the inside unless you are ABSOLUTELY sure it’s safe. In many cases, it is not. Take a moment to wait behind them.
And yet existing cycle lanes take us exactly to the wrong place. That’s why I’d much rather overtake on the outside like “normal” traffic.

Part of the problem is with the highway code assumes that overtaking is always on the right but as point 7 on highway Code 167 states you shouldn’t overtake a vehicle indicating right then it should be updated to include traffic in lanes on the left passing a vehicle indicating left. This isn’t just cycles as many of the bus lanes are on the left and I’ve witnessed a few incidents where a vehicle has turned left across the path of a bus in its own lane

Highway Code 167

DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example
•approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road
•where the road narrows
•when approaching a school crossing patrol
•between the kerb and a bus or tram when it is at a stop
•where traffic is queuing at junctions or road works
•when you would force another road user to swerve or slow down
•at a level crossing
•when a road user is indicating right, even if you believe the signal should have been cancelled. Do not take a risk; wait for the signal to be cancelled
•stay behind if you are following a cyclist approaching a roundabout or junction, and you intend to turn left
•when a tram is standing at a kerbside tram stop and there is no clearly marked passing lane for other traffic

When i was doing my aprenticeshiop when a teenager at a large steelworks populated by numerous railway lines and lorries,i soon learnt to give lorries a wide birth, as one day a lorry driver opened his door and took my mate clean off his bike, a few months latter a driver roping and sheeting, threw a rope over the top of the load and lassoed another cyclist passing the other side, which made the monthly works newspaper.

Only last week a lorry overtook me just before a roundabout, as he passed me the road curved to the left and his trailer wheels hit the kerb about 10 feet in front of me. I had to slow down. RATHER THAN HIM WAITING AN EXTRA F^&*ING SECOND BEHIND ME.

Carbon copy of what happened to me, except the lorry went round me on the roundabout Had to jump onto the kerb when coming off the roundabout to avoid being wiped out by the trailer.

Thanks for posting the vid, very interesting…

As for folk posting the highway code, thats interesting too, I guess its what’s supposed to happen or a set of rules read out in court if you get injured or killed to death. I’m way more concerned about whats happening or about to happen in a 5m bubble round me when I’m on my bike, highway code or not…..

I’m finding that often, the safest place for me if not at the ASL, is on the rear corner of the first vehicle in the gap between it and the second one, eyballing the rear view mirror. Loads of options depending on what happens to the first vehicle, seen by the one behind me.

I will note though that bus drivers in Edinburgh seem to becoming a lot more bike aware, and its better for it. Someone did mention that there had been greater emphasis on their part.

From the HGV POV the blind spot is massive and although he may be aware of how big it is he may not be aware that the cyclist’s aren’t.
Likewise the cyclists are positioning themselves where they might think they are visible but actually are not.

kind of my point, the drivers know (or at least should know) the blind spots of their vehicle, even people on here who presumably did know of their existence were surprised just how enormous they are.

You can say “don’t undertake lorries” as much as you want (please continue to do so) but while our (council/government instated) infrastructure directs cyclists up the inside of traffic and onto ASLs just infront (another lorry blind spot) of traffic I think on balance the onus should be on the owners/drivers of the enormous deadly vehicle with huge **** off blind spots. I believe relativley inexpensive additional mirrors can remove most of the blind spots, proximity sensors and alarms and other more high tech stuff is also available.

I used to drive HGV’s many years ago and the mirrors can only see the last 1/3 of the vehicle. The kerb mirror can see directly below the door but that is it. To cover all the blind spots with mirrors you would probably have about another 6 adding to the cluster. Chances of all the mirrors been checked are slim and still wouldn’t eliminate blind spots.
I wouldn’t depend on proximity warnings as with false readings for street furniture, potholes etc the truck wouldn’t move.
Cycle lanes need to be designed correctly and money spent on them rather than marking off part of road with paint. Laws will need to changed and all road users made to use them correctly. Again no quick and easy answer.

Just out of curiosity…how many people who have posted arguments above along the lines of ‘lorry drivers should know…etc etc’ have actually driven HGVs themselves?

Roadie I’ve not, does it matter? HGV drivers are paid professionals who have had extensive training in driving their large potentially dangerous vehicles through (sometimes) residential areas.