for those who didn’t read the link I included earlier, which offers some plausible reasons for RLJing (author still notes he doesn’t RLJ himself) here’s part of it

Traffic engineers have spent the last 50 years designing most of the hazards out of roads for motorists. Most road junctions do little to make cyclists safe, and many are downright dangerous. It therefore follows that most junctions, including light-controlled ones, are hazardous to cyclists, and that gives rise to a very important moral distinction. Let me first propose three moral principles which shouldn’t prove controversial. First, it is important to respect the law. Second, it is important to respect the safety of others. Third, you have a duty to ensure your own safety. For a motorist at a junction, there’s no dilemma: if you break the law by running a red light, you endanger others and quite possibly yourself. For a cyclist at a junction, if you respect the letter of the law at a UK road junction, you can quite easily find yourself in a situation that endangers you, because of the poor safety characteristics that are engineered into the junction. Furthermore, too often you encounter drivers that do not respect the law. They drive too close to cyclists, encroach into advance stop boxes, overtake dangerously, left-hook you, and so on. So it makes sense to get the heck out of this concentrated collection of hazards toot sweet, as the French have it. It’s a sad fact that most collisions happen at junctions. It’s possible to use the moral defence of self-preservation, provided of course your actions pose no significant danger to others: at some junctions the risks of being mixed up among a pack of accelerating motors are higher than the risks involved in carefully crossing the junction against the lights.

and lets try to keep personal insults out of this eh?

+1 Prezet.

There are belligerent folk on here who obviously know best; they can predict the actions of every other road user, they can tell when someone whose just received bad news/is rushing to an appointment/is a tool etc is on the road and might do something rash- they are immune to the chaos theory that governs a road network serving nearly 70 million.

In fact they are the One, they are Neo, they see and control the Matrix!

I’m up and down the motorways and driving through cities everyday, I see accidents on a regular basis and most of the ones I see are at traffic lights- go figure.

Can we stop posting this irrelevant b*ll*cks about lights that don’t change because a bicycle doesn’t activate the pressure sensors? That isn’t an offence because the lights are then not operating in compliance with the approriate regulations.

It’s exactly the same as drivers who don’t stop when the lights are broken. We’re not talking about that. We’re talking about “jumping” red lights. Which is clearly something different.

how do you know my commute?

Strava: I saw your name near mine on a few segments, recognised you from here, clicked on your name and saw your commute route. Don’t know if that’s stalking or not? I guess that’s for you to decide! I’ve not been to your house, btw.

For a cyclist at a junction, if you respect the letter of the law at a UK road junction, you can quite easily find yourself in a situation that endangers you

Usually through poor road positioning. I would agree that this isn’t helped by the presence of narrow cycle lanes that encourage riding in the gutter. If a cyclist isn’t prepared to improve his safety through using primary, then there is an easy option – dismount and use the pedestrian crossing.

I wonder if shite like this and Ben’s subsequent post (he’s still not answered the simple points put previousloy IIRC):

Seriously. How hard is it to understand:

Red – stop and wait
Green – go

If you can’t get your head around that you really shouldn’t be on the road (or pavement, as you probably think that’s ok too).

…results from folk thinking that anyone who jumps red lights is like the typical London RLJer. It seems that plenty of people are capabvle of applying their brains and RLJing rarely and only when safe to do so. But some don’t appear to have the brain-power to understand this.

they can predict the actions of every other road user

Don’t know about that, but I can certainly predict that zero other road users will perform zero actions.

Al, what previous points do you want me to answer?

Edit- In fact forget it, I think what you say is wrong and what I say is right

Ah yes, the primary position. See BenHouldsworth’s post about drivers not paying attention etc for reasons why it can be safer to ride where the cars aren’t. Doesn’t offer anything that just getting out of everyone’s way doesn’t, yet introduces the possibility of being mown down by Mrs Threescreamingkidsandonthephone. No thanks.

I despair at a lot of the narrow-minded someone else knows best nonsense on here. I don’t mind you doing whatever you want, but don’t expect anyone with a brain of their own to take any notice of your rubbish.

personaly i think that any RLJing is unsafe and anyone doing it is a complete cock and is making the image all cyclists bad in the eyes of all other road users – if you’d stop in your car you should stop on your bike.

they deserve whats coming to them (usually it has 4 wheels, weighs approx a ton and is doing 30mph).

Strava: I saw your name near mine on a few segments

cursed Strava. I’ve not used it for a couple of months.
:wanders off to counter-stalk nedrapier:

Ben:

cynic-al – Member

You are on your bike at a crossroads in the middle of the night. You can see clearly that there’s no traffic around but you face a RL.

You are saying it’s de facto unsafe to RLJ?

If the sensors don’t recognise you, it’s also unjustified?

personaly i think that any RLJing is unsafe and anyone doing it is a complete cock

Wow. If you really think that any RLJ is unsafe, you either don’t cycle on the road, or you shouldn’t.

If I wrote down a list of all the circumstances I regularly encounter on a 5 mile each way commute and order them in terms of risk to me, and risk to others from me, there would be dozens, hundreds if we’re being really detailed, above jumping the safest red lights in the safest cirmcumstances on the route.

cynic-al – Member

You are on your bike at a crossroads in the middle of the night. You can see clearly that there’s no traffic around but you face a RL.
simple, wait for it to go green

You are saying it’s de facto unsafe to RLJ?

yes, its red for a reason

If the sensors don’t recognise you, it’s also unjustified?

i have this problem every day, i wait on the sensor, this usually me up, if i ride over it and wait at the lights it wont. when a car come behind me and im waiting i move forward. – if all esle fails, get off and walk.

Wow. If you really think that any RLJ is unsafe, you either don’t cycle, or you shouldn’t

i think its unsafe because i cycle – ive seen too many accidents where cyclists have RLJ and been hit, hit others, or had ‘near misses’.

Exactly. These blinkered chaps on here have clearly little experience of the real world and have just seen a few London cycle-courier videos on here. That isn’t the real world and it isn’t a reflection on how the majority of people RLJ. At all.

And it’s complete rubbish to say that most people that RLJ are going to end up under a truck. Do you honestly think that if that were true the sorts of people that are on here putting together coherent arguments that RLJing isn’t the end of the world would be doing it? Or even still here to put the argument forward.

ive seen too many accidents where cyclist have RLJ unsafely and been hit, hit others, or had ‘near misses’.

FTFY. Childish, sorry, but was missing a word.

I know this is not the STW way but FFS…

If you want to RLJ, then do so.
If you don’t, then don’t.

Whatever you do, if you **** up and cause an accident, bear the responsibility and don’t whine like a toddler.

If you really think that any RLJ is unsafe, you either don’t cycle on the road, or you shouldn’t.

I’m 39, been cycling on roads since I was 5 years old, commuted through London and Leeds, and never had an incident with a car.

I personally think I’m onto something, you may not, but as an accident free cyclist and driver, with a family and kids, I’m happy to continue in my accident free, no claims, no speeding ticket ways.

I despair at a lot of the narrow-minded someone else knows best nonsense on here. I don’t mind you doing whatever you want, but don’t expect anyone with a brain of their own to take any notice of your rubbish.

Despair all you like. The simple fact is you’re choosing to break a law of using the road and you’re only on here trying to defend your own actions and judgements citing poor cycle craft and road positioning as a reason for doing so.

Still ignoring my point then Ben?

OK BH, well done.

Personally, I find it easy to understand why people take a stance against RLJing for most of the reasons stated, and prefer to always abide by the signals. I’m impressed if they never break the law, that takes some doing. I say that in all seriousness.

I do find it difficult to understand how experienced road users who are making constant and countless decisions every journey, based on judgement and risk, can say that all/any RLJ is unsafe*, without realising that there are countless other things they deal with without batting an eye lid that are far more dangerous.

And if they do realise that, I don’t see how they can’t understand what a meaningless statement it is. “Any form of cycling is unsafe.”

.

*let’s use the deserted road, ped. crossing on red, ped. already crossed example. No shops or sideroads!

and while I’m on:

I’m 33, been cycling on roads since I was 5 years old, I commute through London, and never had an incident with a car. Occasionally, I decide I can jump reds on my push bike with no more risk to myself or anyone else than if I stopped and waited.

I personally think I’m onto something, you may not, but as an accident free cyclist, driver and motorcyclist, with a family, I’m happy to continue in my accident free, no claims, no speeding ticket ways.

I don’t RLJ, and in fact regulary encounter the hypothetical example of the deserted pedestrian crossing. Near the top of a long hill. Near the end of my commute home.

If I don’t RLJ, what’s the worst that will happen? Well, I, errr, stop, and um, then, I, well… start again. This is terrible because??…

let’s use the deserted road, ped. crossing on red, ped. already crossed example. No shops or sideroads!

Fair enough. I shall add in the wannabe superhero on rocket powered roller skates* 😉

* Could happen!

*let’s use the deserted road, ped. crossing on red, ped. already crossed example. No shops or sideroads!

you should still stop – you would if you were in a car, so why not a bike?

OK, quick poll (genuinely interested in the result)

How old are you & do you RLJ?

Me 42 & no

If I don’t RLJ, what’s the worst that will happen? Well, I, errr, stop, and um, then, I, well… start again. This is terrible because??…

Nothing’s terrible, within reason! That’s the point!

Smashing into people while RLJing at 26mph and giving them brain damage is terrible. Ending up under a bus with your head stoved in leaving a family behind becuase you did something stupid is terrible.

A great deal of other things aren’t terrible.

OK, quick poll (genuinely interested in the result)

How old are you & do you RLJ?

34, no

Wrong side of 45 and NO.

Al, if you want me so say your example is one where there is a low risk of an accident then I’ll say it.

Does that mean I think going through the red light is correct, no it doesn’t.

accidents happen when people get complacent, regular commutes where they know every turn and everyday they take less and less notice.

Then one day, or one night, at that quite junction you jumped a thousand times circumstances change.

I simply choose not to take that risk; as has already been said, Red means stop, and for me it means stop because I know for others it doesn’t.

Carrying doing what you’re doing, run with it, but when you wonder why less and less drivers tolerate cyclists its because there are enough bad ones out there to spoil it for all of us.

Easiest way to be safe on a bike and I say this from my own experience if to be like a car, join the back of the queue, sit in line, wait with everyone else, don’t cut down between cars and the kerb, don’t drag race at lights-they have engines and are faster than you.

I simply do not get what you’re up to.

join the back of the queue, sit in line, wait with everyone else, don’t cut down between cars and the kerb,

blimey! I would NEVER drive to work, because it would take about an hour and a half! It takes me 20, 25 minutes on a bike*. And by your method, I’d be even slower than the car, because on the few stretches the car can reach 25, 30mph, I’d be going at 20. Sorry, your method is bonkers and unworkable on my commute.

*And, for reference, there are one or 2 out of 26 that I occasionally jump – if it’s late and deserted. I generally prefer not to, and I hate watching cyclists cutting through pedestrians crossing on a green man.

Red means stop, and for me it means stop because I know for others it doesn’t.

So you don’t go on green either?

OK, quick poll (genuinely interested in the result)

How old are you & do you RLJ?

38, No (including deserted ped. crossings)

nedrapier – Member

So you don’t go on green either?

🙄

I’m 39, been cycling on roads since I was 5 years old, commuted through London and Leeds, and never had an incident with a car.

I personally think I’m onto something, you may not, but as an accident free cyclist and driver, with a family and kids, I’m happy to continue in my accident free, no claims, no speeding ticket ways.
I’m 40 and have been riding on and off road since I can remember. I spent 3 years while at University cycling all over London, I currently commute a 35 mile round trip twice a week, part of which is country lane, part fast A road, and part suburbs. I RLJ when I consider it to be safe and appropriate. I hate to tempt fate but I’ve never had an incident with a car either (other then the usual and frequent cut ups etc).

I think as with anyone who rides regularly on the road the fact that neither of us has had an accident is down to luck and judgement. Luck that no driver has been idiotic enough in his/her actions to run either of us over, and judgement that a) you decide not to RLJ, b) I judge each situation on its own merits and act accordingly, and c) that most drivers judge situations well enough not to endanger either of us.

So who’s right? Legally speaking you of course, but as has been said many times we all break the law in some way.

OK, quick poll (genuinely interested in the result)
How old are you & do you RLJ?

37, with a mental age of 12 and yes, YES! every red light is an opportunity speed on through, every pavement another highway to adopt for my own use, every pedestrian just another obstacle in my way… highway code, road laws? bah.

Otherwise, 34 and no.

Lots of cycle lanes in Leeds Ned, the only place they end is at lights, which change, so I join the queue and set off again.

If a cycle lane isn’t there you can’t create one out of two yellow lines and you only end up annoying some drivers who then in future pull closer to the kerb and make the manoeuvre even more dangerous.

The bigger issue to this whole thread is that our infrastructure still doesn’t support cycling as a viable and safe form of commuting, and people feeling they have to break laws to make it safe validates that.

BenHouldsworth – Member

Al, if you want me so say your example is one where there is a low risk of an accident then I’ll say it.

Carrying doing what you’re doing, run with it, but when you wonder why less and less drivers tolerate cyclists its because there are enough bad ones out there to spoil it for all of us.

At last!

But you think my RLJing is visible to other road users?

Oh dear…you’ve made an ass of u and me!

join the back of the queue, sit in line, wait with everyone else, don’t cut down between cars and the kerb

While riding in a couple of weeks ago I came to a spot which is backed up every day with cars waiting to cross a single lane bridge, quite often the queue is 75+ cars with perhaps 10 at a time going across before letting others come the other way. The road leading up to the bridge is about 1.5 car widths per carriageway so I generally ride down the outside of the stationary traffic before inserting myself into an appropriate spot ready to cross the bridge.

On this particular morning (dry, clear, good road conditions) I saw a bloke on a bike waiting behind probably 50 cars. It must have taken him 20 minutes to get across the bridge where it took me two without putting either myself or anyone else at risk. Why would you do that to yourself?

I despair at a lot of the narrow-minded someone else knows best nonsense on here.

I despair at the convoluted nonsense people dream up to justify their behaviour, which is in fact entirely about selfishness. There’s no reason to RLJ other than to shave a small amount of time off your journey. Just have the balls to admit it.

(34, daily city-centre commute for 10 years, no RLJing).