Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal

jambalaya – worth watching to find out what the local Council were doing. Some were dependent on the church to give them a roof over their head and a hot meal, however the church was running short of funds and were facing closure. It really is madness.

Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal

Hostels were one of the first things to go, cos, you know, we all have to tighten our belts, even those of us whose belts are in fact string.

If the government pursues policies which exacerbate homelessness whilst at the same time cutting services for the homeless, what did you think would be the outcome?

Also, I think the homeless should be encouraged to sleep rough in the more “aspirational” parts of town, so all the Tory voters can see the consequences of their vote.

Also, I think the homeless should be encouraged to sleep rough in the more “aspirational” parts of town, so all the Tory voters can see the consequences of their vote.

+1

@jambalaya; ‘living’ conditions in some hostel are worse than being on the street; some rough sleepers have severe behavioural problems which would not be tolerated in hostels; hostel provision by councils is extremely limited – charitable organisations are much more active but number of places still woefully short
My forecast – this situation will continue to worsen.
My experience? Long standing volunteer with homeless charity with many contacts in the ‘third sector’.
UK is claimed to be 4th/5th richest country by GDP but homelessness/rough sleeping continues to grow; someone please explain that to me.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/19/council-house-wait-50-years-barking-and-dagenham-councillor-documentary-london-no-place-to-call-home

so moving away from this.

Stupid question alert…

How can we get homeless people into work?

I’m one for helping them back on their feet.

http://www.mungos.org/press_office/2669_nowhere-safe-to-stay-homeless-people-told-to-sleep-rough-despite-extreme-dangers

Is your MP attending the homelessness debate on 28th October? Why not email their constituency office to ask.
If you’re interested I can provide a template letter to use; it was produced by Crisis – http://www.crisis.org.uk; email me for a copy or post a comment on this thread.

@travis; if only it was that simple – they need to engage with support services and/or dedicated charities; understand their requirements; provide ‘structured’ support for them; development plan; addiction support if appropriate; behavioural change (?); accommodation; training/retraining and skills development; cv writing; interview practice; sponsored work placements – but it all takes time, money, commitment and a structure.
Everyone is different with differing needs and issues.

And another key consideration – the damage being caused to already vulnerable people by illegal highs needs to be seen close up to be believed.

There is so much more but that’s it for tonight.

Frank: please email me a copy of the Crisis thing.
I’ve been bugging my MP over various things lately (with at least superficially positive results) for a few months now so he’ll possibly be worth a shot.
Richard Arkless SNP, don’t agree with his politics but he doesn’t appear to be a complete tw*t…

@scruffywelder; no email address in your profile.

http://www.crisis.org.uk/nooneturnedaway

On Friday 28 October MPs will have their first debate on the Homelessness Reduction Bill. If successfully passed through Parliament, it will stop homeless people being turned away when they approach their council for help.
Unless 100 or more MPs attend this first debate, parliamentary rules mean that just one MP will be able to kill the bill. And because most MPs work in their constituencies on Fridays, getting more than 100 to stay on at Parliament to attend will be really tough.

Please help by emailing your MP and ask them to attend the debate and support this vital bill by using the link above; you may need to copy and paste into your browser.

If they know their constituents want them to back this then they will be more likely to stay in Westminster.

easy. Low tax economy means a low budget for services. Look to say the Netherlands. Much higher taxation. Rough sleeping almost unknown

Elsewhere the STW massive discuss property in terms of an “investment vehicle” and having a “property portfolio” grrrrrr

jambalaya – Member
Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal

Spectacular.

UK is claimed to be 4th/5th richest country by GDP but homelessness/rough sleeping continues to grow; someone please explain that to me.

easy.despite everyone starting out life pretty much the same, some people choose to become loosers, drunks or druggies, then expect other to help them out.

Oldtalent – be interested to know what sort of society you were born into, born equal sounds either amazing or trolling on a massive scale

Same as other countries – but other more civilised countries have services in place to support people who have fallen into homelessness. You know – simple things like having subsidised state housing, benefit levels that allow folk to actually have a roof over their head – that sort of thing

How do you account for the fact that a large proportion of rough sleepers are ex servicemen

Obvious troll is obvious.

easy.despite everyone starting out life pretty much the same, some people choose to become loosers, drunks or druggies, then expect other to help them out.

So much wrong with this I’m assuming it’s a troll. Nonetheless:

starting out life pretty much the same

Wrong, even from birth we all start out different, then add bad upbringing, legitimate health issues, legitimate mental issues, etc. etc. I was brought up in a stable household with good, educated parents who pushed me to take school and uni seriously. Not everybody is that lucky.

choose to become loosers, drunks or druggies

Think of so many of the causes behind people becoming losers, drunks or druggies. Gambling? Massive industry with marketing and high street presence, designed to extract as much money from people as possible. Known to be addictive. Drinking? Massive industry with marketing and high street presence, designed to extract as much money from people as possible. Known to be addictive. Drugs? Less easy to defend, I was taught from a young age to avoid all of them (including the legal ones) and even when I did dabble was fortunate enough to have a good enough quality of life that I didn’t become dependent. But when you’re already at rock bottom? I’d probably be seeking whatever cheap oblivion I could find.

Face it there will always be a bottom 10%, it’s our choice as a supposedly civilized, 1st world nation how we choose to deal with it.

easy.despite everyone starting out life pretty much the same, some people choose to become loosers, drunks or druggies, then expect other to help them out.

Gosh! 1950 just called and wants its ignorance back. Perhaps we could criminalise homosexuality too, just to tie up the loose (correct usage) ends.

Stupid question alert…
How can we get homeless people into work?
I’m one for helping them back on their feet.

Case by case. ‘On your feet’ for Gary might mean first conquering the effects of isolation and/or addiction. Trudy may simply need an offer of a spare room, shower and access to the internet – but if this isn’t forthcoming then a year down the line you may not even recognise her. Gail, on the other hand, went ‘feral’ after being raped by her husband. Only skills she had were as a mother but now years of life on the street has become ‘the norm’, she’s gone awry mentally, has major trust and social issues and her physical health is declining fast with gangrene setting in. You want to find her a job first, or a home, case worker and care package? Or (I’ve heard people say) just offer her a job and if she messes that up it’s her own fault?

Very strange move by the council. I live in West Bridgford and don’t think I’ve ever seen a homeless person here. They are using a particularly blunt/stupid policy to solve a problem that doesnt even exist.

I assume they are hoping that it just means that anyone tempted to sleep rough just stays on the north side of the river.

Number of homeless in Netherlands had increased by 74% between 2009 and 2015 – Statistics Netherland

95% of Rotterdam residents feel that homelessness in a major problem – NL Times

Low tax economy means a low budget for services. Look to say the Netherlands. Much higher taxation. Rough sleeping almost unknown – Tjagain

Take you pick about which one to believe….but tax is unlikely to be the answer

The other big demographic group apart from ex servicemen sleeping rough are kids coming out of council care

(another name added to the “block user” list)

Getting homeless folk back into work is very difficult. the odds are stacked against them. One example that I was involved in.

I had hire and fire power in one post. We had advertised for care workers. I offered interviews to everyone who applied – IIRC about 8 people who met the very basic minimum requirements. amongst them was a chap around 45 who had very bad teeth and who turned up in a suit that must have been 30 years old. He interviewed OK but had huge gaps in his employment history. His references were the manager of the homeless hostel and the organiser of a lunch club he volunteered at.

It would have been very easy for me to just reject him as I had other candidates who could fill the post. I did manage to establish from his refeerees that he did not have a chaotic lifestyle and I gave him the chance figuring that he had tried hard to get into a position ( volunteering etc) where he would at least have a chance of employment and I also thought that the job would mean more to him than to many folk thus he would really try hard at it. It was a gamble tho on my behalf but it paid off. He became a very reliable staff member.

I had to look beyond the bad suit, bad teeth, homelessness and lack of work for decades to see the positives he could offer me as an employer but I was prepared to take the gamble. I can see why other folk would not have done so. Remember this was working with vulnerable adults

teamhurtmore – Member

Number of homeless in Netherlands had increased by 74% between 2009 and 2015 – Statistics Netherland

Take you pick about which one to believe….but tax is unlikely to be the answer

Low tax economy means a low budget for services. Look to say the Netherlands. Much higher taxation. Rough sleeping almost unknown – Tjagain

Homeless =/= rough sleeping. Obviously.

@oldtalent; i wondered how long it take for the uninformed (ignorant?) and prejudiced or trolls to comment.
Congratulations – you’re the first!
It’s clear you don’t use the 4Fs so let me explain:
First
Find the
F***ing
Facts

Ta Northwind. Point well made. Homelessness is not the same as rooflessness

My sister lives in city centre Amsterdam. You simply do not see rough sleepers in the same way I do in Edinburgh. On my commute to work in Edinburgh I pass 3 or 4 every day. I have never seen one in my visists to amsterdam

Staggering increase in glasgow over the last few years. I can think of at least a dozen on the block my office sits on, slap bang in the city centre.

but why should we care, it’s their choice after all…

Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal

Tory voting, well off person in not having the first clue what goes on in the real world shocka!

Yeah, Jammers. Councils have got absolutely loads of properties to use to house the homeless. Have you not heard? You must have read about all this surplus housing stock they’ve got? And masses of funds to kit them all out in a suitably luxuriant style, where up-market catering firms can drop off their meals

All the homeless got bored with the endless luxury though, and decided to sleep under a railway bridge instead, because its all just like a great big adventure

Remind me again……. which planet do you live on?

No it doesn’t NW obviously, in the Dutch stats it included people, with no fixed above sleeping in shelters, rough in the street or in building.

There is lots of evidence of rough sleeping in the major cities eg Amsterdam, Utrecht, The Hague and Rotterdam.

It is simply false to equate higher taxation in Netherlands with rough sleeping being unknown. There are two false elements to that, which is quite some going.

teamhurtmore – Member

No it doesn’t NW obviously, in the Dutch stats it included people, with no fixed above sleeping in shelters, rough in the street or in building.

So why use that stat to comment on TJ’s post about rough sleeping when you know it wasn’t actually for rough sleeping?

This is just googling but apparently there are 250 rough sleepers in the 4 main cities of the netherlands- that’s 2.2m people. There are 2869 in London, 8.6m. There are more rough sleepers in Ealing than in Amsterdam. To be fair, measures will be different from country to country and the netherlands figures I used are a little older- though were on a downward trend while UK spirals upwards.

(The 4 city figure had reduced from 290 to 250 from 2010 to 2011, while the UK increased 23%. Amsterdam’s rough sleeping popularion had halved in 3 years while Ealing’s went up 20% last year alone)

The Netherlands also has a trend away from night shelters to supported housing, which we certainly don’t, and has increased resourcing for homelessness, targeted prevention, and mental health care. As you say, people think homelessness ia a big problem- so they’re trying to do something about it.

The Netherlands does have some imaginative solutions true. But it is 100% incorrect to argue that rough sleeping in Holland is unknown – it isnt, far from it – and there is no evidence to suggest that higher tax rates are the answer – they are not.

TJ has been quite particular with jamabs about being factually correct and so I am sure that he would like to do the same. In this case, he isnt.

P.S. if you are going to google at least use up to date numbers

As you say, people think homelessness ia a big problem- so they’re trying to do something about it.

whats that got to do with rough sleeping? 😉

teamhurtmore – Member
The Netherlands does have some imaginative solutions true. But it is 100% incorrect to argue that rough sleeping in Holland is unknown – it isnt, far from it – and there is no evidence to suggest that higher tax rates are the answer – they are not.

TJ has been quite particular with jamabs about being factually correct and so I am sure that he would like to do the same. In this case, he isnt.

P.S. if you are going to google at least use up to date numbers

As you say, people think homelessness ia a big problem- so they’re trying to do something about it.
whats that got to do with rough sleeping?

That’s a great argument, dispute other people’s stats, don’t provide any that support your viewpoint, and ignore the trends (no one is pretending that you can ever completely eliminate rough sleeping – for instance I once got really drunk and woke up somewhere on the street in Kensington having accidentally got off the night bus after going down the stairs to make sure I’d swiped my Oyster card).

I can only assume you think fining them will, somehow, work?

“Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal”

Surely we can’t be far off Peak Jamba?

You assume many things, Jamba. Most of them wrong.

No Phil, I think its a silly idea.

Mrs THM works directly to help, thats a better albeit temporary solution. I raise money for the local organisation that helps them too

teamhurtmore – Member

The Netherlands does have some imaginative solutions true.

There’s very little imaginative about it. Mostly they’re just adequately resourcing conventional homelessness programmes, and increased spending while we’ve cut it.

teamhurtmore – Member

The Netherlands does have some imaginative solutions true. But it is 100% incorrect to argue that rough sleeping in Holland is unknown

And it’s also 100% inaccurate to claim that TJ did this.

teamhurtmore – Member

P.S. if you are going to google at least use up to date numbers

PS I put a very clear caveat on that and explained why it shouldn’t undermine the response. None of them are drastically old, and TBF if we had today’s figures it’s almost certain they’d paint us in an even worse light.

And frankly it’s weird that you’re now criticising my numbers for their timescales, when you were making your argument with numbers you knew were for something different. “Well I might have used the percentage of red cars to evidence my argument about rough sleeping, but at least they were the 2016 figures”

teamhurtmore – Member

whats that got to do with rough sleeping?

Absolutely everything- unless you think they have a lot of people who have homes, rough sleeping for recreational reasons. You can’t use figures for homeless to make arguments about rough sleeping as you did, but the core issues of homelessness and rough sleeping are obviously inextricably linked, and unlike us they are acting to improve both. ( 😉 )

Absolutely everything

Make your mind up! But great we agree (finally) as do the Dutch statisticians and citizens. You can take back your earlier points at your convenience. I am glad that we have cleared that up.

Moving on….

(we should really only play the lets make stuff up game on the Indy2 thread)

Thank you northwind for doing a dirty job I won’t do