Why are these people not in a hostal ?

“Are there no workhouses? Are there no prisons?”

Dickens had Jamba pegged well over a century ago.

tjagain – Member
Look to say the Netherlands. Much higher taxation. Rough sleeping almost unknown

versus

And it’s also 100% inaccurate to claim that TJ did this.

You decide!!

We obviously agree that it does exist and that it is related to homelessness. We can leave the false statements to others.

unlike us

speak for yourself

We might not be very good at finding solutions but it is also simply untrue to imply that the UK is neither acting on homelessness nor rough sleeping. That is patently untrue.

Lets keep lies to the Indy 2 and Europe threads – much simpler that way.

Can we get back onto the original post?
Agree the uk is acting on homelessness and rough sleeping but…..it’s fragmented and uncoordinated; in reality, without homeless charities pushing for gov action i doubt the gov would be doing anything.
It’s good that so many have posted on the subject; have any of you considered volunteering as that makes a real difference.
Not for everyone but you’ll never know until you try it

Yes, and good point

Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal

I assume the council has some skools at its disposal too.

It’s a funny thing, but every time we have a spell of Tory government, people move out of their homes and onto the streets. Those of you too young to remember the Major/Thatcher years won’t know what a common sight it was. The Labour government to its shame did not do enough to straighten this out, especially with reference to building more council houses; but it certainly never had a policy of making the worst off worse off.

teamhurtmore – Member

Make your mind up! But great we agree (finally) as do the Dutch statisticians and citizens. You can take back your earlier points at your convenience.

You’ve selectively quoted from my post in order to misrepresent what I’m saying, while simultaneously repeating your earlier misreprentation of stastistics. This is more conventionally known as “knowing you are wrong but lacking the integrity to admit it, and instead trying to lie your way out of a corner”. Everyone can read the posts and see what you’re doing but just in case anyone is fooled, let’s just restate it.

What I said: Homelessness and sleeping rough are connected, but they are not the same. The Dutch’s approach to homelessness of course also has an effect on rough sleeping. However,

Me: “You can’t use figures for homeless to make arguments about rough sleeping as you did, but the core issues of homelessness and rough sleeping are obviously inextricably linked”

Knowingly using statistics on homelessness to try to make an argument about rough sleeping is dishonest. You’ve already admitted that “in the Dutch stats it included people, with no fixed above sleeping in shelters, rough in the street or in building.” but despite this you persist in pretending that their statistics support your argument about rough sleeping specifically. At this point, you are arguing not with me, but yourself.

Similiarly

TJ

Rough sleeping almost unknown

You:

it is 100% incorrect to argue that rough sleeping in Holland is unknown

You decide!!

In quotes, here you are pretending TJ said something he did not. You even quoted the line yourself. Enough said- it’s evidently not an error, you know what he actually said and you know you’re misrepresenting it.

So yes- keep the made up stuff to the indy thread please. I do not appreciate being lied to, or lied about. If you want to create a fantasy conversation between yourself and some made up version of other people’s arguments, like Galileo and Simplicio, by all means do so. But you can do that by yourself on thmtrackworld without spoiling the thread for others. If you want to be part of a conversation with real people, respect it.

😯

Meanwhile…..

Meanwhile, teamhurtmore, the government that you and others on here support, is steadily making the situation for hundreds of thousands of people in the UK, worse and worse. You’ll find actual ‘statistics’, you know, those lists of numbers you love so much, support this fact.

So what’s your answer to this issue?

When I was a student I used to work weekends as security for Ryder Trucks. There was an old guy sleeping in a skip full of some sort of fabric off cuts in the car park of the factory next door. I used to take him soup out of the vending machine and have a chat to him, it was the coldest winter I can remember too. Not a nice way to exist. He certainly wasn’t any sort of scrounger. Someone must have noticed him as one weekend the skip had been fitted with a lock. Can’t have people sleeping in your waste rags.

Doffs cap at frankconway and fin25 for being such kind, public-spirited people.

There was a user on here who was kind to a homeless person who’d arrived in his home town, would be good to hear an update.

Here is an example of how this country is being ripped off for one type of medicine.

28 tablets can be bought for £5.60 from an overseas supplier.

It costs the NHS ££258.20 for 28 tablets as there is only one supplier.

Despite patients writing to the Health Secretary and their MP’s it is only now, following a newspaper article in The Times, that anything is being done to address this.

For 2015/16 the NHS spent over £25 million on this particular medication.

Read all about it and fume:

Britain’s Pharma Bros.

Meanwhile, some don’t have the luxury of a roof over their head, some are dependent on food banks etc etc.

jambalaya – Member
Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal

If the situation wasn’t so tragic – that would be hilarious!

It’s like when they impose financial penalties on prostitutes – how do you think they’re gonna raise the money to pay that …..?

ps there’s a DHSS office opposite my work with big plastic wheelie bins and they employ a man to wack them with a stick every morning so the homeless folk run off.

Hello clod – lets see what you have this time

Meanwhile, teamhurtmore, the government that you and others on here support,

Ok a bad if not unexpected start. Try not to jump to conclusions and stick to…

is steadily making the situation for hundreds of thousands of people in the UK, worse and worse. You’ll find actual ‘statistics’, you know, those lists of numbers you love so much, support this fact

….facts. Oh dear, double fail. Never mind.

So what’s your answer to this issue?

There is no one answer. But I prefer practical solutions to internet BS. Mrs THM helps directly with local foodbanks and I support and raise funds for the local charity which focuses specifically in this areas including raising the largest ever donation from a little 26.2mile jog!! Small beer I know and I am sure far less impressive that your solutions. But from little acorns….

Neither fining people nor raising taxes nor (frankly) our limited support are panaceas. Better to tackle to root problems. But that requires grown up thinking on a large scale.

Better to tackle to root problems. But that requires grown up thinking on a large scale.

Dare I ask what you seem to think the fundamental ‘root problems’ are? I was under the impression that they are manifold, or at least wide and varied, compounding each other? It’s like tackling the ‘root problem’ of alcoholism or social dysfunction/mental illness, abuse, insolvency? While living in the States I saw first hand that ‘one paycheck from homelessness’ was not just a catchy phrase. How do you tackle the ‘root problem’ of a society that increasingly stigmatises and ‘punishes’ people who are in trouble? Or is that not one of the root problems?

“There is no one answer.”

What you mean is, you don’t have one.

“…facts. Oh dear, double fail. Never mind.”

Yes, facts. Like this:

“Mrs THM helps directly with local foodbanks and I support and raise funds for the local charity which focuses specifically in this areas “

Charities which deal with the effects of government policy. Thanks for reinforcing my point! 😆

“Ok a bad if not unexpected start. Try not to jump to conclusions”

Oh come on; who are you trying to kid? Yourself? 🙄

You’re very quick to try to patronise and insult others, yet never seem to actually have any clear ideas yourself.

“Better to tackle to root problems. But that requires grown up thinking on a large scale.”

Best you leave that to those who can then, eh? 😉

@ teamhurtmore: ‘But that requires grown up thinking on a large scale’. Totally agree but where are the grown-ups who are able to think on a large scale and develop appropriate strategies which, as you say, are required to tackle the root problems?
There is limited evidence of any in this or previous govs with the interest, focus, appetite, aptitude, influence/power to work with the homeless charities in addressing this growing problem in a constructive way.
If this gov – or any previous/subsequent – were serious they would, at the least, have an under secretary of state with the specific remit of developing integrated and cohesive strategies supported by ring fenced funding from the Treasury.
Dream on.

@cinnamon_girl: thanks – I do what I think is right.

Largely absent Frank that is the problem. But there are very good guys that I work with who work at a local level and do an excellent job. But they are trying to do two things at once – deal with symptoms AND causes. This is very hard.

No clod I mean what I say. There is no one answer.

Plus charities deal with many causes not just government failures. I don’t leave it to others. I prefer to get involved. What do you do? You seem to know a lot more than me on this topic.

“No clod I mean what I say”

You haven’t really got much of a clue about what you’re talking about. So what you say doesn’t mean very much.

“Plus charities deal with many causes not just government failures”

Food banks and homeless charities are dealing directly with government failures, mainly. Such as the government’s failure to ensure all people in the UK have adequate food and shelter.

“What do you do?”

Well, none of your business, I’m not interested in playing ‘what do you do for others’ top trumps. Because it’s vulgar. Because whatever I do for others isn’t about me, and my ego. Go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back for your own efforts though.

“You seem to know a lot more than me on this topic.”

You’re actually right for once. I do. Best you leave it there really. Maybe go out for a jog or something.

“where are the grown-ups who are able to think on a large scale and develop appropriate strategies which, as you say, are required to tackle the root problems?”

Mainly working for charities/legal support services/local community organisations etc, as there are hardly any positions within government, for them to be able to work from. Because the government has either closed down relevant services, or cut them to the bone so much that they cannot be effective in any meaningful way. And the aforementioned charities etc lack sufficient resources to be able to employ anywhere near the number of people needed to be truly effective, so it really is about papering over the cracks. Cracks which are getting bigger and bigger, because of the systematic failure of our government to do the job it was elected to.

I’ve had an experience with social services this week which, quite frankly, leaves me seriously doubting that anything can actually improve without a fundamental change in the way our society is governed. What really worries me, is the level of social destruction this current ‘government’ are capable of. And one look at them tells you these **** are capable of anything.

You insight is most valuable clod albeit at odds with most of the research on the matter. The single biggest reason for homelessness in the UK is loss of accommodation with relatives and friends followed by relationship breakdowns. Plus there are significant regional and cultural variations. All of which tends to add some support to my original conclusion that you seem so keen to reject. Odd that. But hey ho, I am sure you know best.

Ill follow you earlier example and jump to the conclusion that the other answer is nothing in the absence of anything else.

The government may or may not be delivering here, but that is not to say that they are doing nothing, A minister is responsible and there is plenty of documentation of their work. You only have to be prepared to look.

Have to agree with Cloddy here. Chatting with our local labour councillors last week (labour at a local level is nothing like the shambles of the present national leadership) they all firmly believe the same thing.

That the present Tory party is well on its way to dismantling local government and the welfare state to the point where all local councils are left capable of doing is providing the ‘services’ which they are legally bound to provide. Emptying bins, etc, which will all of course be contracted out to the private sector.

It’s a scorched earth policy that will leave no provision for the homeless, the disabled, the working poor, or any ****er else for that matter

“The single biggest reason for homelessness in the UK is loss of accommodation with relatives and friends followed by relationship breakdowns.”

Let’s have a look at this, after all, you only need to do a few seconds googling to find out:

From Shelter:

“Reasons given by homeless people for being homeless

The three main reasons for having lost a last settled home, given by applicants for homelessness support from local councils are:

parents, friends or relatives unwilling or unable to continue to accommodate them
relationship breakdown, including domestic violence
loss of an assured shorthold tenancy. [1]”

So, well done for quoting something from the first page of a Google search. Rather simplistic to merely quote a selected part of an article, to try to prove a point though. You could have included this (but for some reason, you didn’t, I wonder why?):

“Personal causes of homelessness

A number of different personal and social factors can contribute towards people becoming homeless. These may include one or more of the following:

individual factors including lack of qualifications, lack of social support, debts – especially mortgage or rent arrears, poor physical and mental health, relationship breakdown, and getting involved in crime at an early age
family background including family breakdown and disputes, sexual and physical abuse in childhood or adolescence, having parents with drug or alcohol problems, and previous experience of family homelessness
an institutional background including having been in care, the armed forces, or in prison.
Tackling these problems is a complex business and normally requires support from public bodies, friends and family, combined with a lot of hard work from the individual or family in trouble. Public support might include intervention, advice, counselling, training or provision of alternative accommodation by a local authority where appropriate.”

“All of which tends to add some support to my original conclusion that you seem so keen to reject. Odd that.”

Yes, odd, that.

Clod very grascious of you to concede so well, by repeating my point about the key causes and then highlighting why there is no one answer. Bravo. We got there in the end.

Getting back to the original post – do any of you want to do something/anything to constructively address the homelessness issue?
I’m all in favour of discussion but when it deteriorates into pi** and wind, as this one has…………
What I’m saying is – this is a serious subject; if you can or want to help, great – get involved now; if you’re a keyboard warrior who won’t get involved – and I’m sure you have your reasons – go to a different thread.
Rough sleepers and homeless deserve better than inane witterings from the uninformed.

Good suggestion Frank although unpopular when I suggested it

1. If you think GOV is the answer, lobby Sajid Javid and the PM. They are responsible and have £40m to spend (sshhhh don’t tell everyone that they are doing anything) and ears to listen to initiatives
2. Support the organisations that work directly to assist homeless people. In our case, people do not imagine that a supposedly wealthy county (Surrey) can have these problems but it does. This makes it difficult to raise the money and level of support.
3, Practical help with food, shelter, clothing and advice
(4. The evil people in churches also help and need support but probably another unwelcome suggestion here.)

I work for a Community Safety Team that’s currently nominated for being the best in the country. We use a couple of PSPOs, infact we introduced the 2nd ever adopted PSPO in the country bacj in 2014.

A large proprtion of our work is with the homeless communities in our city centre. One of the reasons we’ve recieved the award nomination is for the levels of support we offer. Yes we have the ability to issue fines but we generally tend not to, offers of support will always come first. Issuing a fine to someone that cannot pay it is futile. We do not fine people for being homeless, however if they’re exploiting or coersive within their social group – we have a decent number of homeless people pimping others out, particularly young women and young men with drug habits to pay for – then more structured work and evidence gathering is undertaken.

The work has really touched me over the years, it’s incredibly moving when we are able to claim success and progress someone from the street to a supported accomodation. It’s bloody tough at times and in honestly I’m now slightly numb to the names that drop off our weekly tasking sheets due to sadly passing away.

In relation to Jambalaya’s ignorant comment. Our main, central emergency night shelter is loosing ALL of it’s grant funding within the next 3 years. If this was to close we’d loose over 60 bed places. I met the Chief Exec a few weeks ago and their sole purpose right now is to stop the potential closure. Government policy in this respect seems incredibly shortsighted.

“Bravo. We got there in the end.”

Yes well done run along now.

“do any of you want to do something/anything to constructively address the homelessness issue?
I’m all in favour of discussion but when it deteriorates into pi** and wind, as this one has…………
What I’m saying is – this is a serious subject; if you can or want to help, great – get involved now;”

Totally. Most folk don’t understand the kind of work that needs to be done, in terms of supporting those who are homeless. ‘Organising’ some back-slapping ‘charity’ event that assuages middle class guilt isn’t particularly effective (not much of the actual money raid tends to get to help those who really need it). What really helps, is getting onto the ‘front line’ of support services, and understanding what people really need. Very often, it’s things like legal advice and support, giving people suitable and adequate clothing, and assisting families with young children. And that’s before you even begin to address the underlying reasons for homelessness.

Help can be harassing social services late at night, to help place a family with young children into accommodation (even for one night!). It can be trying to arrange a solicitor at 3am to go to a police station to hep someone who’s been arrested for vagrancy (and persuading said solicitor to work for free because the person may well have no recourse to legal aid). It’s being that solicitor who will work for free. It’s about taking a family inot your own home for a few days because nothing else can be found. It’s about coming well out of your comfort zone, into the desperate and often terrifying world that so many unfortunate souls live in.

And then there’s preventative and help; that can be turning up with a group of others, to stop unscrupulous thugs masquerading as ‘bailiffs’, from evicting people illegally. It can be exerting legal pressure on dodgy landlords to behave in a legally responsible manner. It can be going round with a set of tools, to help someone fix up their kitchen or bathroom, in whatever accommodation they may be able to get, so they can have a bath and cook a meal.

I attended a meeting on certain aspects of mental health issues linked to homelessness at the weekend. Absolutely shocking. I then went back to my nice, warm, cosy home with all amenities and comforts. And today, I can’t stop thinking about how incredibly lucky I am.

If you really want to help affect change, then contact your local homeless support networks, and see how you can get involved. Because there’s more than likely something you can do, be it offer 1 to 1 talking therapy, putting up some shelves/fix a leaky tap, help sort out suitable clothing and bedding, or maybe just fix up an old bike someone can use to get about and socialise, look for work etc. The problems are growing, and the amount of support needed is increasing. We are that support, it’s our society, and we all need to get involved.