How cool is that, unarmed guards, so any fool with a gun or guns could literally almost walk up and get a SAM system. Our government at its best!

Just catching this one. I would probably take the stance that there will be some form of armed guard protecting it and those councillors have rather stupidly jumped on an idea without being privvy to all the info to get their fifteen minutes of fame. Ring any bells? 😉

I shall save my disagreements with you to actual stuff you say and leave the playground stuff to you

Like I said. Whatever.

Also I will add Rapiers will be next to useless against anyone with any flying skills flying a microlight or light plane in an urban situation. Anyone attempting to do anything naughty would fly them below house level (down below houses in the street, or just skimming them)….there would be to much clutter to engage with any certainty. Missiles are not that intelligent, you’ve got a good chance it will just career into a building instead. The rapier is particularly poor for this kind of role as it’s a semi-active missile relying on optical and radar guidance, the aircraft has to be within the line of sight/radar of the launcher…unlike an active missile.

Remember the bloke who flew and landed a Cessna from Germany in the worlds most heavily defended airspace (Moscow during the cold war)?

In 1987? Technology has moved on a bit since then. 😀

Launching a Rapier missile at a low flying weaving target in a built up urban environment is still not a great idea even with 21st century technology simon.

Rapier is pretty crap to be honest, a small battery of those things is nothing compared to the dozens of radar sites, S-200’s, Ilgas etc that the Russians had around Moscow during that era.

It’s all been done for show.

However I do not believe that a microlight would have a big enough heat signature for a SAM to hit, I may be wrong.

Starstreak (the missile in question) isn’t IR guided. It’s a laser beam rider. IIRC the 1st stage burns out in the tube and pops the missile out fast, 2nd stage then ignites a safe distance away, before firing off 3 tungsten submutions (look like darts) that (ideally) tw4t into the target. All this time the dude at the launcher is keeping a cross hairs on the target which projects a laser mark on it. The three submutions then follow the laser.

What’s really clever is the way the steer. The front bit of each submution spins round whilst the back of it doesnt, to turn the front bits spin is slowed down which then brings the back end round. Or something like that anyway. I just remember reading about it and thinking ‘that’s clever’.

In 1987? Technology has moved on a bit since then

Starstreak was developed in the 80s.

Obviously security theatre though – any terrorist that actually wants to cause some damage will just target a queue outside of the main olympic site.

I think the idea is that this is a last resort and a rather determined/clever/brave/stupid terrorist will get into its sights. And this is the 200 on the ground or 50,000 in the stadium point, innocent people will die if its fired. I think those that have positioned it on the roof of a private recidence in a residential area know this.
Use a weapon as a deterrent, but don’t take it unless you’re prepared to use it either.

Starstreak was developed in the 80s.

And not modified since? 😯

I don’t even think it has the range to do that, if 50,000 people are in peril then we are talking about an airliner. So Rapier, with a range of 5 miles is going to stop an airliner doing 500mph careering into a stadium?

Reaction time + flight time of missile + size/mass of airliner + speed of airliner + relatively small warhead size = airliner crashing in roughly the same spot as before.

**** stupid idea, again it’s for TV and making the yanks feel safer. Parking a T45 off the Thames might of actually been some use, but they decided against that.

And the circle is complete, that’s already been discussed bwaarp, no disrespect.

Well I just pretty much poured water on the other reason you guys were coming up with for having a Rapier site in London….the “it’s for microlights”.

Well I just pretty much poured water on the other reason you guys were coming up with for having a Rapier site in London….the “it’s for microlights”.

I’m not sure that’s been done either, but if it’s important for you, go for it.

leave the playground stuff to you

Like I said. Whatever. 😀

Using an aerial mode of attack makes a lot a sense as it will bypass ground based security measures, potentially make iconic images and pay homage to the 9/11 attacks.  5 years of planning could produce some workable tactics – light aircraft, helicopter, micro lights, RC drones are all potential threats which can’t be discounted.  The presence of HVM near potential targets would at least give commanders another option and potentially deter attackers.  Without HVM,  even a hot air ballon could float over the stadium or other venues unchallenged.  

I sincerely hope that there is no threat, but we’d be foolish to leave the door wide open and encourage some lunatic(s) to take a chance.  

Kevevs – Member

and all the people who happily/not happily struggle with live in this area have how much say in this? well **** their thoughts I suppose.

Nah, **** ’em ……it’s a private gated community. Posh gits.

I don’t even think it has the range to do that, if 50,000 people are in peril then we are talking about an airliner. So Rapier, with a range of 5 miles is going to stop an airliner doing 500mph careering into a stadium?

I haven’t read the rest of the thread so maybe missing something pertinent, but they don’t appear to be proposing to use Rapier.

I sincerely hope that there is no threat, but we’d be foolish to leave the door wide open and encourage some lunatic(s) to take a chance.

Perfectly good air defense are in place I believe – but the idea of shooting down a plane over the city using SAM is simply a non starter IMO for multiple reasons as explained

This missile battery is simply not able to do anything bar the theatrical

Perfectly good air defense are in place I believe

Facts, please? 🙄

I haven’t read the rest of the thread so maybe missing something pertinent, but they don’t appear to be proposing to use Rapier.

Well in that case they will be using the line of sight operated Starstrek missile which is even shorter ranged and shitter, another MOD cockup in which they decided to purchase a 21st century version of the incredibly shit Blowpipe missile who’s claim to fame was probably having a lower kill ratio than gun based systems during the Falklands war. Once described as like “trying to shoot pheasants with a drainpipe.”

If they were serious about giving London air defence cover, then they would have used a T45 Destroyer.

And not modified since?

Wouldn’t have thought so, at least not significantly. The laser beam riding principle is pretty much impossible to jam. Lots of weapons developed in the 80s (or 70s) are still used unchanged. LAW80 springs to mind, dumb bombs, gazelle helicopters, etc etc

then they would have used a T45 Destroyer.

Not exactly designed or equipped for urban warfare is it? Tends to work better at sea, not in the middle of a built up city.

Wow! 😯 That’s, that’s not encouraging.
TJ… Fact on this air defence, please?

Tends to work better at sea, not in the middle of a built up city.

Isn’t that a bit relative when we’re talking about London during the Olympics? What would be the definition of working better? 😐

Wouldn’t have thought so, at least not significantly. The laser beam riding principle is pretty much impossible to jam. Lots of weapons developed in the

Except if you are painted with one, it will trigger a warning receiver in 4th gen aircraft allowing the pilot to either run, dive below cover or enter clouds.

The really nasty SAM’s are the newer gen fire and forget thermal ones that can differentiate between counter measures and aircraft.

Not exactly designed or equipped for urban warfare is it? Tends to work better at sea, not in the middle of a built up city.

At least it has the range and radar capacity to knock small light aircraft down down before they get near the city.

Medical professional in knowing everything about counter-terrorism shockah! 😉

CFH – no – just able to think logically and clearly and thus see why SAM batteries in a city are a theatrical gesture not a practical or plausible counter terrorism weapon.

Its not rocket science you know

Apart from all those black spots from all of those buildings around it along the river, and the complaints from their occupants when that hefty radar plays merry hell with their computers and other electronic devices.

I only went into medicine because the RAF told me I didn’t have the eyesight to be a pilot.

That has all changed. So I’ll be applying this summer.

A lot of guys over at Arrse/Pprune don’t think much of this decision either.

Perfectly good air defense are in place

piffle.

I only went into medicine because the RAF told me I didn’t have the eyesight to be a pilot.

CFH wasn’t talking to you, count yourself lucky on that one.

Bwaarp, not directed at you, old chap, but at our resident omniscient.

Apart from all those black spots from all of those buildings around it along the river, and the complaints from their occupants when that hefty radar plays merry hell with their computers and other electronic devices.

Good point, I’m guessing they would switch it on once ground observers or air control had spotted a target. The missiles I think can be data linked to target aircraft located by other radar units.

Still not convinced, I still reckon it’s mostly for show.

I still reckon it’s mostly for show.

Undoubtedly, but for who?
To make Joe public feel safer/more scared?
Or as a deterrent?

As a resident, I’d be incredibly hacked off about all this.
TJ, where are the air defence facts to prove that they even exist??

Rapier malfunction

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=593_1255018191

Not as much of a problem if it is just a couple of squaddies up a tower with a shoulder launched Starstreak system though.

CaptainFlashheart – Member

Medical professional in knowing everything about counter-terrorism shockah!

And Flashheart lacking the confidence to ever express an opinion, or make any carefully thought out comment, on any subject, shockah

Even lacking the confidence to reveal what he does, if anything, for a living, lest anyone should take the piss shockah

I thnk I know why he does that ernie
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rNjga5z7hw&feature=fvsr[/video]

Perfectly good air defense are in place

piffle
the last time we were attacked in the UK from the air was when ?
the last time we had a terrorist attack on the ground?

Now it may be that is easier to do it from the air because we have weak air defences that dont protect us. However it appears we dont get attacked by air [ perhaps this is due to adequate air defence?] and it is not the chosen method for terrorist attackers.

if you think it is poor perhaps you could explain why?

if you think it is poor perhaps you could explain why?

I can’t possibly say, can I? Not until TJ backs up his claim with some evidence.

Don – I ain’t responding to your trolling any more – just pointless.

Ummm

TJ, not sure how to say this but ummm, it is rocket science! We are talking aboout missiles aka rockets!

TJ, all I have had done is use your strategy against you, and you don’t like it, do you?
The only thing you haven’t done is insult people… 😀

❓

God he really has got under your skin hasn’t he …i think you should chill,get out more , get over this and move on

Except if you are painted with one, it will trigger a warning receiver in 4th gen aircraft allowing the pilot to either run, dive below cover or enter clouds.

If the plane is able to enter clouds it’d be too high to be in range anyway. Starstreak is a low level point defence / anti helicopter missile. Max range is 7k, so you’ve got less than 7 seconds to do something about it – at min range you’d have less than a second.

All largely irrelevent anyway as the ‘terrorists’ aren’t going to be riding around in 4th gen fighters. And neither, for that matter, is anyone we’re likely to have a war with.

The really nasty SAM’s are the newer gen fire and forget thermal ones that can differentiate between counter measures and aircraft.

Pretty much every sam since the 2nd gen has been able to do that. All that happens is counter measures get better, and then the missiles get better, and repeat. The beauty of the laser system is there isn’t any countermeasure (at low level with no clouds). Obviously not fire and forget tho so there is always the problem that someone might ‘distract’ you whilst you’re trying to kill them (much like the problems Milan anti tank people would have faced in the fulda gap in the 80s).